- This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Mr. Steve …..please by who's hand are the laws of God put in the gentiles Hearts, Is't their own free will choices. Tell me what this means then Jer 31:33,,,> ” but this is the covenant that I (GOD) will make with the House of Israel after thoses days say's the lord; I (GOD WILL PUT) my law in their minds and write it on their Hearts; and I will be there GOD and they Shall be my People…… Where is (FREE WILL) Here, all your so called free will choices could never do this it takes God to put them in the Mind and Hearts.
Eph 3:7, ….> of which i being a minister according to the (GIFT) of the GRACE of God (GIVEN) to me by the effective working of His (GOD'S) POWER> it came by the (gift) and Power of GOD.
Rom 3:24…..> Being justified (FREELY) by HIS (GOD'S) GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus……> No where here is our (FREE WIILS) mentioned only God's free Will in by His GRACE.
Eph 2:10…..> For we are His (GOD'S) workmanship, (CREATED) in Christ Jesus for Good works, Which (GOD PREPARED) before hand that we should walk in them….. If we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for Good works, then our good works are a creation of God.
php 2:13…..> For it is (GOD) who (WORKS IN YOU) both to (WILL) and (DO) His Good Pleasure…..> where is our Free Will here.
Eph 2:8….> For by (GRACE) you have been Saved through Faith, and that not of yourselves,……or your Free Will choices…..> it is the (GIFT) of GOD.
You remind me of someone like this……For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit themself to the righteousness of God.
IMO…………gene
Hi WJ,
I saw in another thread that you go to minister's conferences. So you are a trinitarian minister?You also showed us a teaching from scripture about the trinity you think you found
“Question for you?
There was three articles put inside of the Ark of the Covenant.
What about the other two? Since you insist there is something “Special” about the “Ten commandments” over the rest of the Law.
What about the “Manna” and “Aarons Rod that budded”?
How about this?
God was trying to show us the “Trinity”.
God the Father – Ten commandments
God the Son – Manna
God the Spirit – Aarons Rod that budded “
hmmm
Since I have not been “banned” from posting in here yet, just wanted to say: WJ is dogmatic like the rest of you, has a different view of God and Jesus than the rest of you, but still uses the same set of books as the rest of you. He is a Christian, you are Christians. Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously.
Besides, WJ was always more understanding of me while I was moving towards unitarianism than most would be. If anyone has reflected what Christ SHOULD be about, I elect WJ.
Just MHO.
There you are with that “word” thing again. I asked you to show me where the bible was called the “word of God” in the bible and you never responded. Any luck finding it yet?
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,13:45) Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously.
Says a fighting KJ.Quote (chipwhite @ Feb. 21 2008,08:01) Hello all been along time (but I have been quietly reading along for about 40 or so pages and finally have some time to wade in.) Like martian mentioned earlier this is just a board of opinions and like others I enjoy testing my opinions just like everyone else. With that out of the way here we go again. The reason that “I” believe in the trinity is because it makes so much since. (I hear the groaning in the background and expect the boards to light up.)
I have tried many times to compare the tabernacle/tri-une nature of man/tri-une nature of God with no takers. So maybe You and I could have a go martian.(If I could keep your interest) got to go now but will log in later at home and see if you responeded. God Bless all
Hi chipwhite.Body Soul Spirit = man
So if this is the image of a triune God, then here are some reasonable questions:
1) Which part of the Trinity is the body is it the son?
2) The Spirit is obviously the spirit if you had to make a match.
3) That leaves the Father as the soul or is he the body?Or what combination are you promoting?
Also, is a human body 100% of a man? Is the spirit of a man 100% the man? Yet each member of this supposed Trinity is 100% God, and they still do not add up to 300% combined.
The argument of a triune God and a triune man made in his image has a lot of discrepancies, loopholes, and doesn't make sense.
But that is not the worst part. The worst part is the fact that no one in scripture teaches it. Jesus, Paul, Moses, John, Ezekiel, Daniel do not teach a Trinity God.
The bible says of the Harlot, that she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.
Perhaps you need to be tested to see if you have drunk the wine of Babylon? I leave that question up to you.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 22 2008,06:24) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,13:45) Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously.
Says a fighting KJ.
I don't consider myself necessarily Christian anymore. Can I when I do not believe that it is the only true way?But Christians from whatever belief system constantly tell the others they are not of God and headed for hell. Just in the Ron Weinland thread someone said anyone not in the church Weinland is in is not a true Christian and not going to heaven.
If Christians are telling each other they are false, how attracted do you think a non-believer will be to Christianity? After all, that person will have to not only start believing but also according to one belief system.
Of course the above is ludicrous, but it happens all too often.
Like this thread — I've seen you t8, and perhaps Nick, call WJ a false teacher just because he believes in the trinity. To WJ, that is the what he believes. What right do you have to say he is false? In his heart and mind, you are false. Who truly is false, the one who does not believe as you do?
Hello everyone, writing a quick response will post a deeper one later. I am sitting in my office and looking at the color red. Besides lettering and some pictures and symbols in my office there is very little red.(possibly 5% of the total view.) yet I find what I am looking for because I am looking for red. (most of my office is off white by the way 80%) I usually dissagree with most of what he posts but nick h is right, there are many parallels between the three. The tabernacle was merely a shadow of what was to come. {To answer T8 briefly if you read hebrews 4 where the word (little w in the niv) is living and active sharper than any double edged sword it seperates soul/spirit. Only the word does this and I believe that word in that instance refers to the scriptures. Now if you go to 1st corinthians and read chap 2 it clearly tells that in the same way that God's Holy Spirit works with him so does our spirit work with us. It clearly states exactly how the Holy Spirit works with our spirit to lead us into the mature things of The Father. So if the spirit matches with the Holy Spirit in function then there are only two left. We know from scripture that “God is Spirit” (He does not have Flesh) And now for more weeping and wailing and nashing of teeth!!!(ha ha) John 1:1 In the begining was the Word. (do not need to quote it all yallget that verse.) vrs 14) and the Word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. So there you go t8 if you line up two of the three then the third is aligned by default.} Kejonn is also right it is o.k. to discuss these things as long as we do not fall into the trap of judging our brothers and sisters as unsaved because we differ on some intellectual points.I do the major commands “I love the Lord my God with all my heart,mind,soul,and strength.” Also the people in my life have seen the love my Jesus has put in me for them, leaving a legacy that will be around long after I have gone home. Now back to martian. The reason I started off with the color analogy is because I feel that maybe you are putting to much stock into the intellectual portion of the hebrew mentality. It is also my humble opinion that the God and creator of the universe could have written the bible is such a way(through the profits and apostles) that the Holy Spirit can speak to me today in my life in Louisville Kentucky. I believe God can transcend culture and circumstance to relate spiritual truths in spiritual words. The prophets and Jesus himself only used parables because we are week in our understanding of sprititual things. (rather we westernize or “hebrewnize”(even in ky we know this is not a word ha ha) our thinking is irrelevant if we are not producing fruit in our lives.) When I am armed with my bible and concordance I will go into scriptural detail right now am just shooting from the hip. God Bless will check back later.
Quote (chipwhite @ Feb. 23 2008,00:29) Hello everyone, writing a quick response will post a deeper one later. I am sitting in my office and looking at the color red. Besides lettering and some pictures and symbols in my office there is very little red.(possibly 5% of the total view.) yet I find what I am looking for because I am looking for red. (most of my office is off white by the way 80%) I usually dissagree with most of what he posts but nick h is right, there are many parallels between the three. The tabernacle was merely a shadow of what was to come. {To answer T8 briefly if you read hebrews 4 where the word (little w in the niv) is living and active sharper than any double edged sword it seperates soul/spirit. Only the word does this and I believe that word in that instance refers to the scriptures. Now if you go to 1st corinthians and read chap 2 it clearly tells that in the same way that God's Holy Spirit works with him so does our spirit work with us. It clearly states exactly how the Holy Spirit works with our spirit to lead us into the mature things of The Father. So if the spirit matches with the Holy Spirit in function then there are only two left. We know from scripture that “God is Spirit” (He does not have Flesh) And now for more weeping and wailing and nashing of teeth!!!(ha ha) John 1:1 In the begining was the Word. (do not need to quote it all yallget that verse.) vrs 14) and the Word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. So there you go t8 if you line up two of the three then the third is aligned by default.} Kejonn is also right it is o.k. to discuss these things as long as we do not fall into the trap of judging our brothers and sisters as unsaved because we differ on some intellectual points.I do the major commands “I love the Lord my God with all my heart,mind,soul,and strength.” Also the people in my life have seen the love my Jesus has put in me for them, leaving a legacy that will be around long after I have gone home. Now back to martian. The reason I started off with the color analogy is because I feel that maybe you are putting to much stock into the intellectual portion of the hebrew mentality. It is also my humble opinion that the God and creator of the universe could have written the bible is such a way(through the profits and apostles) that the Holy Spirit can speak to me today in my life in Louisville Kentucky. I believe God can transcend culture and circumstance to relate spiritual truths in spiritual words. The prophets and Jesus himself only used parables because we are week in our understanding of sprititual things. (rather we westernize or “hebrewnize”(even in ky we know this is not a word ha ha) our thinking is irrelevant if we are not producing fruit in our lives.) When I am armed with my bible and concordance I will go into scriptural detail right now am just shooting from the hip. God Bless will check back later.
Now back to martian. The reason I started off with the color analogy is because I feel that maybe you are putting to much stock into the intellectual portion of the Hebrew mentality. It is also my humble opinion that the God and creator of the universe could have written the bible is such a way(through the profits and apostles) that the Holy Spirit can speak to me today in my life in Louisville Kentucky. I believe God can transcend culture and circumstance to relate spiritual truths in spiritual words.Response – My desire is to know the truth. I do not believe that Trinitarians are unsaved. This is a simple doctrinal issue. I do believe that Trinitarians will miss out on some things from God because they hold to that doctrine.
We are to study to show ourselves approved, however there are those that carry this to an abstract place it was never intended to go. Scripture was never intended to be understood outside of it’s cultural history. For hundreds of years good men of God accepted sprinkling babies as baptism. These men too thought God would reveal the truth without study. It was not until some actually studied the word and were willing to step outside the orthodox box that they discovered the truth. Along the way they discovered the treachery that took place at the hands of the Church of England, The Catholic Church, King George and the Translators.
Let me give an example —
16″Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
17″But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face
18so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.When the Hebrew anointed his head a washed his face it was speaking of pouring olive oil in the scalp and on the face. This is a direct commandment from Jesus. Assuming that fasting is for today, does that mean that we are to pour olive oil on our faces and hair when we fast?
No it does not. From understanding the culture and the climate conditions of the Holy Land, we know that everyday the people would put olive oil on the faces and scalp to protect from the hot arid climate. When the Pharisees fasted they would stop this practice so there faces would crack and peel and thereby show to everyone that they were fasting. Jesus was teaching that your fasting should be between you and God.A few verses later we find this —
20″But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22″The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.
23″But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24″No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.The context is about being generous. What does having a bad eye have to do with generosity? There is a Hebrew idiom that says that if a person has a dark, evil, or bad eye they are stingy. Without knowing that Hebrew idiom the meaning is lost.
I picked those particular examples because they carry little significance to major doctrines. There are however hundreds of cases where understanding the Hebrew mindset makes major difference in understanding scriptures.The prophets and Jesus himself only used parables because we are week in our understanding of spiritual things. (rather we westernize or “hebrewnize”(even in ky we know this is not a word ha ha) our thinking is irrelevant if we are not producing fruit in our lives.)
Response –
You have captured the heart of the Hebrew concepts of the value of teaching. Hebrews judge the worth of teaching on it’s fruits. How does it function. This concept is clearly taught in scripture. Even without experiencing the fruits themselves one can analyze the potential of a doctrine to produce fruit. I assume you have not read everything I have posted on the functionality of doctrine. When presented a doctrine, I always ask the same questions.
1.How does it help me become more like Christ?
2.How does it further the plan of God?
3.How does it show Christ as a more viable example for me?
4.Does it contradict the attributes or character of God?
Of all the doctrines supposedly derived from the bible, I have never seen one false doctrine that could pass these tests.
This is one of the differences between Hebrew and Greek thinking. Hebrews believe God as they e
xperience Him. Greeks believe God as the reason Him out. Hebrews assume the existence of God and live their lives accordingly. Greeks attempt to prove God with bullet list, outlines, and proof texts. Hebrews see God and his creation through the five senses and functionality. They relate their experiences in life from concrete thinking. Greeks see God and his creation on the basis of appearance and think in abstract ways.Bringing this back to the subject of this thread, I have often ask Trinitarians to show me the functionality of their doctrine. I have asked them to show me how that doctrine helps me to be like Christ. I have asked how it makes Christ a more viable example for me. To this date no one has been able to truthfully answer those questions.
Quote (chipwhite @ Feb. 23 2008,00:29) Hello everyone, writing a quick response will post a deeper one later. I am sitting in my office and looking at the color red. Besides lettering and some pictures and symbols in my office there is very little red.(possibly 5% of the total view.) yet I find what I am looking for because I am looking for red. (most of my office is off white by the way 80%) I usually dissagree with most of what he posts but nick h is right, there are many parallels between the three. The tabernacle was merely a shadow of what was to come. {To answer T8 briefly if you read hebrews 4 where the word (little w in the niv) is living and active sharper than any double edged sword it seperates soul/spirit. Only the word does this and I believe that word in that instance refers to the scriptures. Now if you go to 1st corinthians and read chap 2 it clearly tells that in the same way that God's Holy Spirit works with him so does our spirit work with us. It clearly states exactly how the Holy Spirit works with our spirit to lead us into the mature things of The Father. So if the spirit matches with the Holy Spirit in function then there are only two left. We know from scripture that “God is Spirit” (He does not have Flesh) And now for more weeping and wailing and nashing of teeth!!!(ha ha) John 1:1 In the begining was the Word. (do not need to quote it all yallget that verse.) vrs 14) and the Word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. So there you go t8 if you line up two of the three then the third is aligned by default.} Kejonn is also right it is o.k. to discuss these things as long as we do not fall into the trap of judging our brothers and sisters as unsaved because we differ on some intellectual points.I do the major commands “I love the Lord my God with all my heart,mind,soul,and strength.” Also the people in my life have seen the love my Jesus has put in me for them, leaving a legacy that will be around long after I have gone home. Now back to martian. The reason I started off with the color analogy is because I feel that maybe you are putting to much stock into the intellectual portion of the hebrew mentality. It is also my humble opinion that the God and creator of the universe could have written the bible is such a way(through the profits and apostles) that the Holy Spirit can speak to me today in my life in Louisville Kentucky. I believe God can transcend culture and circumstance to relate spiritual truths in spiritual words. The prophets and Jesus himself only used parables because we are week in our understanding of sprititual things. (rather we westernize or “hebrewnize”(even in ky we know this is not a word ha ha) our thinking is irrelevant if we are not producing fruit in our lives.) When I am armed with my bible and concordance I will go into scriptural detail right now am just shooting from the hip. God Bless will check back later.
Hi CW,
You are starting with a human theory and trying to find justification for it from scripture.
Jesus did not teach it.
Do you follow him?hello nick h, john 17:3 (niv) now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is His Son.
I had better follow Jesus or I will never have eternal life.
peace and blessings to you NH
Martian I apologize if I gave the wrong impression after reading your response about intellectualizing. I appreciate you restating your position on how you test things to see if the theory will hold up (do not like using the word doctrine maybe its my intellectual western thinking ha ha) I will try to keep my comments relevant to those parameters when I post.
In matthew 19:24, and in mark 10:25, also in luke 18:25 these verses talk about the camel going through the eye of a needle. I have had people(pastors) tell me that this eye of a needle was what was used in the evenings in walled cities for travelers to enter after they barred the gate. (to be protected from maurauders and bandits) I have been told that this eye of the needle was a short tunnel through the wall. They had to take all the stuff off of the camel lay it flat and pull it through with a rope. Now is that entirely different from trying to shove a camel through a sewing needle. ( most assuredly ) but whichever it was the warning for the rich man is still there whether I get the true hebrew meaning of a tunnel or the western concept of a sewing needle it is impossible without God. This is what I meant by written in such a way to transcend time and culture the warning is for the wealthy man.
I am a carpenter by trade and I fully comprehend that Intellegence is not common sense/wisdom. ( I lean towards widom verses Intellegence.)
I can show you all day long how to drive 16 commons in two hits with a hammer.(a nail that is over 2″ long.) you can read books hook me up to computers and study my motions and fully understand why I can do it over and over again. Then I hand you the hammer and with all your knowledge and studying you try. (Do you think you will do it also? do not feel bad some longtime carpenters cannot do it either.) Just because you know something does not mean it is apart of you, or that you can do it to, it must be lived to be you. (If you can do it though, I know that the only way you can do it also is because you have driven thousands upon thousands of nails in every weather and circumstance immaginable.
God Bless and I will try to make my first post fit within the 4 parameters you mentioned earlier.Chipwhite……> the word for camel in Aramaic which was spoken at the time of Jesus, means rope, what Jesus was saying was, puting a rope through a eye of a needle.
Peace to you and yours……..gene
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,23:55) Like this thread — I've seen you t8, and perhaps Nick, call WJ a false teacher just because he believes in the trinity. To WJ, that is the what he believes. What right do you have to say he is false? In his heart and mind, you are false. Who truly is false, the one who does not believe as you do?
If WJ says that he is teaching from scripture, then if he brings a teaching that contradicts scripture, then one would expect that he should also be judged by scripture. And scripture teaches us about false teachers who teach false doctrines.What right does anyone have to judge a false teacher? Well if say you teach from scripture, then you should be judged by it to.
Unfortunately KJ, everyone converting to hippies and espousing love and acceptance's of all lies is not the Kingdom of God.
The other reality is that there is a real battle going on. The darkness is trying to veil the light.
So there is a real fight going on.
If you choose to not follow Christ (if that is what you mean by not being a Christian) then that is your choice. Such things are bound to happen and are written anyway. I respect your decision.
But I am allowed to have an opinion and to let the ugliness of Babylon put you off Christ, is foolish to me.
He is the messiah of God and our only hope.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,23:55) Like this thread — I've seen you t8, and perhaps Nick, call WJ a false teacher just because he believes in the trinity. To WJ, that is the what he believes. What right do you have to say he is false? In his heart and mind, you are false. Who truly is false, the one who does not believe as you do?
No KJ.The one who says he teaches from scripture but teaches from another source. I do not consider myself the measurement by which all is measured. That would be the height of arrogance.
My teachings are there to be tested and I backup what I say with scripture. I am also open to learning and being corrected by scripture.
But if you doubt, then you can have an opinion about anyone in any manner you desire. I do not give myself that luxury. I prefer to let truth be my guide in matters of teaching and doctrine. Therefore my own doctrine outside of scripture matters little. So to that end my mission is to understand and teach what is in scripture.
If a man comes and teaches not from scripture, (and claims that he teaches from scripture), then I have the right to say that he is teaching falsely. I don't beleive in the “everything is truth and OK” club. There are many lies out there that are very harmful to those who believe them.
It is really more about caring about people, than coming up with a philosophy that makes everyone happy.
It is not a noble cause to please all men. It is a noble cause to defend the truth, even if it makes you unpopular or you lose your life for it.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,23:52) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 22 2008,06:24) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 22 2008,13:45) Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously.
Says a fighting KJ.
I don't consider myself necessarily Christian anymore. Can I when I do not believe that it is the only true way?But Christians from whatever belief system constantly tell the others they are not of God and headed for hell. Just in the Ron Weinland thread someone said anyone not in the church Weinland is in is not a true Christian and not going to heaven.
If Christians are telling each other they are false, how attracted do you think a non-believer will be to Christianity? After all, that person will have to not only start believing but also according to one belief system.
Of course the above is ludicrous, but it happens all too often.
KJ, the world is telling each other they are right or wrong. There is communism, democracy, Nazism, Trinitarianism, sexism, racism, and every other ism you can think of. It is not exclusive to Christians. There is even KJism from what I can see.The reality is that there is a narrow path of truth and a wide path that is not true to take a quote from the messiah.
Trying to make the wide path acceptable to make people live in harmony is only bowing down to lies to appease the Lord of Lies in order that there maybe a type of peace. Just like some who give alms to gods in order that the gods will not bring them calamity.
Jesus gives a peace not as the world gives it and he came to bring a sword. This is not a contradiction, if you understand his words. He came to bring truth and the only real truth, and that requires a sword of division. A division of truth and lies. A division of light and darkness. A division of sheep and goats.
Quote (chipwhite @ Feb. 23 2008,07:37) Martian I apologize if I gave the wrong impression after reading your response about intellectualizing. I appreciate you restating your position on how you test things to see if the theory will hold up (do not like using the word doctrine maybe its my intellectual western thinking ha ha) I will try to keep my comments relevant to those parameters when I post. In matthew 19:24, and in mark 10:25, also in luke 18:25 these verses talk about the camel going through the eye of a needle. I have had people(pastors) tell me that this eye of a needle was what was used in the evenings in walled cities for travelers to enter after they barred the gate. (to be protected from maurauders and bandits) I have been told that this eye of the needle was a short tunnel through the wall. They had to take all the stuff off of the camel lay it flat and pull it through with a rope. Now is that entirely different from trying to shove a camel through a sewing needle. ( most assuredly ) but whichever it was the warning for the rich man is still there whether I get the true hebrew meaning of a tunnel or the western concept of a sewing needle it is impossible without God. This is what I meant by written in such a way to transcend time and culture the warning is for the wealthy man.
I am a carpenter by trade and I fully comprehend that Intellegence is not common sense/wisdom. ( I lean towards widom verses Intellegence.)
I can show you all day long how to drive 16 commons in two hits with a hammer.(a nail that is over 2″ long.) you can read books hook me up to computers and study my motions and fully understand why I can do it over and over again. Then I hand you the hammer and with all your knowledge and studying you try. (Do you think you will do it also? do not feel bad some longtime carpenters cannot do it either.) Just because you know something does not mean it is apart of you, or that you can do it to, it must be lived to be you. (If you can do it though, I know that the only way you can do it also is because you have driven thousands upon thousands of nails in every weather and circumstance immaginable.
God Bless and I will try to make my first post fit within the 4 parameters you mentioned earlier.
I acknowledge that the examples I gave were simple ones. Since the subject is the Trinity let me go a bit more detailed. Hebrews see things and view their world through the five senses. They see how things function and describe them in the same terms.
The following verse is often used to prove that Jesus is God.
John 20:28?Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
I am certain that if you are a Trinitarian you would use this verse to prove that Jesus is literally God.
I will deal specifically with the term God. Lord is kurios in the Greek and simply means master or one in authority. It is not a name for God.
The Term God is Theos in Greek and has several meanings. Certainly can mean literally God, but can also mean representative or revealing of God. Jesus was certainly a revealing and representative of God, so how to determine if this verse is saying literally God or not.
Again one must look at the Hebrew concepts of seeing things by their function.
Two more portions of scripture to consider —
John 10
23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
(Jesus answered them by pointing to his works. He pointed to how he functioned)
26″But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27″My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29″My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30″I and the Father are one.”(Now Jesus points out that in this same function he described earlier, He and His father are one.)
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?(here Jesus uses a common debate method among the Rabbis. He quotes a very small portion of the OT and the listeners would understand it as if He quoted the entire text. It is like I were to say Romeo and ? You would understand that to be Romeo and Juliet. (if you know the play and the teachers knew scripture. They would get it. Jesus is quoting Psalms 82)
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7″Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.
(In this Psalm YHWH is rebuking the Elders of Israel for not functioning toward the people as Gods. They were judging unrighteously and mistreating the lost and hungry. Jesus uses this Psalm to point out that He was functioning as a God to the people and they were not. They should have been functioning as Gods because of their position as leaders in Israel.
Neither the leaders of Israel in Psalm 82 or in John 10 were literally God even though YHWH called the former ones God and Jesus called the latter Gods. For this reason what Jesus said was a rebuke. Jesus continues in John 10 to point out that they should see His works/function.
35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37″If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
Thomas looked at Jesus and says “My Lord and God”. Thomas, a Hebrew with a Hebrew mindset calls Jesus God, not because He is literally deity, but because He functioned as God. The same way Moses bowed down before the burning bush. God is not literally a bush on fire but, for that moment of time the bush functioned as God.
If a Trinitarian wants to use John 20:28 to prove that Jesus is literally God because Thomas uses those words to describe him, then how much more should we believe that 2 separate groups mentioned in the Bible (Psalm 82 and John 10)are also Gods because both YHWH and Jesus call them so. If they are gong to believe Thomas, who doubted Christ’ resurrection, when he calls someone God, how much more should they believe YHWH and Jesus when they call someone God.
This is not about language, but about the mindset behind the l
anguage. Until all of us shed the inundation of Greek philosophical abstract thinking, we will never understand the intent of the Hebrew minds that wrote scripture. The testimony of scripture must be understood by virtue of the mindset of those that are testifying. Those that remain in Greek thinking will never “fully” understand Jesus as our example nor will they understand what it means to follow in His footsteps. They will never completely understand that the plan and purpose of YHWH is to have children like Himself. Children with His character, motives and intentions as proven by how they function as Gods to those around them. For this reason YHWH gave us a complete and perfect example of a human being, Jesus, who functioned as God to his brethren, even unto death on a cross.Quote Since I have not been “banned” from posting in here yet, just wanted to say: WJ is dogmatic like the rest of you, has a different view of God and Jesus than the rest of you, but still uses the same set of books as the rest of you. He is a Christian, you are Christians. Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously. Besides, WJ was always more understanding of me while I was moving towards unitarianism than most would be. If anyone has reflected what Christ SHOULD be about, I elect WJ.
This is a beautiful day. KJ said he accepted the gospel of John but it was highly symbolic with respect to Christ's pre-existence. WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person. At least KJ has something in common with WJ. Hence, WJ has KJ vote.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
