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Quote (martian @ Feb. 14 2008,02:29) Quote (Samuel @ Feb. 13 2008,11:59) I honestly can't see how a debate such as this can be fogging up the mind of Christians. No matter weather we believe in a Triune GOD or a Oneness GOD…
Still the only name by which we are going to be found without sin, and or be forgiven of sin and allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven is the name JESUS CHRIST.
That man is the only way we are getting to what ever way we choose to believe in the ONE GOD.
That son, that man, that name…
JESUS CHRIST
Is there really any more explanation needed?
I mean come on people, it is rather silly actually. What do you think Jesus Christ would say to us if he were here right now?Look at us. Is this the work he sent us out to do?
To bicker back and forth with one another, and create confusion? Some times its best to just turn the other check. And have faith and rejoice with one another that we have indeed heard the truth. Thus, sharing it with the world. Not condemn them.
I have to suck my pride up and submit this flesh daily.
DAILY
Its a task that we all must do. What if there is an unsaved person listening to all of this? What would they think? What of all this confusion? I certainly don't want to stand before GOD one day and answer as to way I started all this confusion and turned people away from GOD.
Our pride has to go people. We really need to lay down some things here and just step away.
I agree, but then this board would go out of business. This is an entertainment venue for me. I do not take it very seriously. I am still working on a book on this subject and use these boards to cross check my conclussions.
Hi martian,
Do you really own such contempt for all others here?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,05:37) Quote (martian @ Feb. 14 2008,02:29) Quote (Samuel @ Feb. 13 2008,11:59) I honestly can't see how a debate such as this can be fogging up the mind of Christians. No matter weather we believe in a Triune GOD or a Oneness GOD…
Still the only name by which we are going to be found without sin, and or be forgiven of sin and allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven is the name JESUS CHRIST.
That man is the only way we are getting to what ever way we choose to believe in the ONE GOD.
That son, that man, that name…
JESUS CHRIST
Is there really any more explanation needed?
I mean come on people, it is rather silly actually. What do you think Jesus Christ would say to us if he were here right now?Look at us. Is this the work he sent us out to do?
To bicker back and forth with one another, and create confusion? Some times its best to just turn the other check. And have faith and rejoice with one another that we have indeed heard the truth. Thus, sharing it with the world. Not condemn them.
I have to suck my pride up and submit this flesh daily.
DAILY
Its a task that we all must do. What if there is an unsaved person listening to all of this? What would they think? What of all this confusion? I certainly don't want to stand before GOD one day and answer as to way I started all this confusion and turned people away from GOD.
Our pride has to go people. We really need to lay down some things here and just step away.
I agree, but then this board would go out of business. This is an entertainment venue for me. I do not take it very seriously. I am still working on a book on this subject and use these boards to cross check my conclussions.
Hi martian,
Do you really own such contempt for all others here?
What planet are you on? Did I say anything about anyone? Perhaps you have your security in this baord a little too much. These boards are really only a minor deal in the scheme of real ministry. They are simple intelectual exchange and have little to do with experiantial work in God's plan.
They are fine for what they are but they are not a real ministry.Get over it Nick.
Quote (Samuel @ Feb. 13 2008,11:59) I honestly can't see how a debate such as this can be fogging up the mind of Christians. No matter weather we believe in a Triune GOD or a Oneness GOD…
Mark 12:28-29
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 14 2008,08:29) Martian; What was that you were sharing yesterday about being like Christ?
I was speaking of this venue and not about any person at all. Nick got offended for no reason.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,07:36) Hi martian,
Is a certain amount of love not helpful, even functional?
I have no problem loving anyone on this board. Even when the tensions are high. I just see a more limited value for this type of venue then you do.
I have no problems with the people just do not see much value in this venue other then intelectual exchange and entertainment. That has nothing to do with the people on the board unless their securities are somehow tied into it.In the new testament “God” is referred to over 1300 times, many many times by Jesus himself. Never once does Jesus even imply that one scripture is referring to him. Finally, when they said he made himself God because he said he was the son of God, he dnied he was God. Earlier, the when the Jews said they were children of Abraham, Jesus disagreed because they failed to do the works of Abraham. Then they said, “Well, then God is our Father,” claiming themselves to be the sons of God, which was the same reason they said that they needed to crucify Jesus.
Quote (martian @ Feb. 14 2008,08:47) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 14 2008,08:29) Martian; What was that you were sharing yesterday about being like Christ?
I was speaking of this venue and not about any person at all. Nick got offended for no reason.
Hi martian.
No offense.
Presenting a pragmatic theory without compassion is like writing a bible for engineers.
And continually telling everyone here they can only entertain you shows a certain rather different attitude.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,08:59) Quote (martian @ Feb. 14 2008,08:47) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 14 2008,08:29) Martian; What was that you were sharing yesterday about being like Christ?
I was speaking of this venue and not about any person at all. Nick got offended for no reason.
Hi martian.
No offense.
Presenting a pragmatic theory without compassion is like writing a bible for engineers.
And continually telling everyone here they can only entertain you shows a certain rather different attitude.
I said the venue was entertaining. Peoples posts are ometimes entertaining.
A pragmatic approach to scriptue is all that is possible on this venue. It is simply intelectual excahnge of data. there is no experiancial interaction between people and no personal contact. The venue itself does not lend itself to that type of interaction. I am ot saying it does not have purpose, but as an effective measure to further the plan of God it fails.The ancient Hebrews knew God by way of experiances and then used their minds to understand what they experianced. We of Westrn thinking do it backward. we want to be convinced intelectually first and then MAYBE we will get around to trying to experiance it. I do not do it perfectly but I prefer the Hebrew method. Many of the truths I talk about here are a result of seeing them function in my heart and life first.I am now in the process of arranging it im my data processor/mind. Jesus is not going to judge us on the basis of how much data we accumulated in our heads. He is going to judge by the character in our hearts. That can only be changed experiancialy. It is not a matter of mentally ascending to character change. As I have posted befoer, there is a sad beliefe rampant in Christianity that if you aquire something intelectually, it means you have attained it spiritually. This is not true.
This whole scenerio is sadly indicative of the state of Christian fellowship in this modern age. The days of the original house felowships and sharing meals together have given way to mege churches where you need a number to ask a question and impersonal web sites where a real hug of human contact is replace with a set of parenthesis around your name. Where fixing someones doctrine is more important then seeing if they are hungry.
martian……..> I also believe it's experience with the Father that produces true faith. I know we have recieved the forgivness of our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus, but even the Father provided that also. This whole shift today in total focuse on Jesus, is like the saying, “rob Peter and pay Paul. So called Christainity today rob God the Father and focuses totally on Jesus. I have had many of my prayers answered and saw Mircales preformed in my life as well as others. I have always prayed to God directly not through anyone not even Jesus and it works for me. I will always honor Jesus for what he did and the position God gave Him, but i will never give Him glory for what only the Father can do and that includes the creation of the world and everything in it, as well as any true Mircales performed in the presents of Jesus or the apostles or anyone else. God the Father is the only Mircale worker and performs them as favors to Us or for the advancement of His work. I have found in my studies every concievible Idea of Religious ideologies From Jesus being a simple ordinary man to very God Himself. I only know in my life it was the experience with The Father that really counted and without that experience i would have nothing, just unsuported knowledge thats all. It truly is the relationship that counts with the Father, and if you have the Father you will have the son also. The greatest commandment is to love (hang on to) the Father with all our might and soul and mind, And (IF) you have that you don't have to worry about anything else.
peace to you and yours………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 15 2008,05:07) martian……..> I also believe it's experience with the Father that produces true faith. I know we have recieved the forgivness of our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus, but even the Father provided that also. This whole shift today in total focuse on Jesus, is like the saying, “rob Peter and pay Paul. So called Christainity today rob God the Father and focuses totally on Jesus. I have had many of my prayers answered and saw Mircales preformed in my life as well as others. I have always prayed to God directly not through anyone not even Jesus and it works for me. I will always honor Jesus for what he did and the position God gave Him, but i will never give Him glory for what only the Father can do and that includes the creation of the world and everything in it, as well as any true Mircales performed in the presents of Jesus or the apostles or anyone else. God the Father is the only Mircale worker and performs them as favors to Us or for the advancement of His work. I have found in my studies every concievible Idea of Religious ideologies From Jesus being a simple ordinary man to very God Himself. I only know in my life it was the experience with The Father that really counted and without that experience i would have nothing, just unsuported knowledge thats all. It truly is the relationship that counts with the Father, and if you have the Father you will have the son also. The greatest commandment is to love (hang on to) the Father with all our might and soul and mind, And (IF) you have that you don't have to worry about anything else. peace to you and yours………….gene
What I like to refer to as sonship is and always has been the goal of God. To maure sons with His character. No one comes unto the Father but through Jesus. Certainly this is applicable to salvation but IMHO it also goes farther. There is a delicate balance between the literal and the relational between Father and son (Jesus) Jesus said to Peter when you see me you see the Father. All that the Father can reveal to us in the restrictions of our physical realm was shown in the face of Jesus.
2 Corinthians 4:6?For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
We see through a glass darkly but then face to face. I do not believe the fullness of the Father will be seen by us till we are on the other side. For the most part now No one knows the Father except the son and to whom he chooses to reveal him.You are right though. We can come boldly before our father as a birthright of our sonship. I too have had wonderful experiences with my Father and it is different then those ones I have with my brother and mediator Jesus.
Just woke up from a nap. Hope that makes ense?Hi martian,
He told Philip that to see him was to see the Father in Jn 14 because his human vessel was filled with the fullness of the Father's Spirit. We too can seek this blessing and be changed to the likeness of Christ by this Spirit if we allow that work in us.Jn 14
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
lk 11
11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Gal 5
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.Hi,
Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.If the Spirit is that of God what is this crazy idea of a trinity?
Nick;
The trinity doctrine isn't the enemy. Many good men and women of God embrace the doctrine, probably for lack of knowledge and a better understanding. The trinity doctrine doesn't actually claim to understand the godhead. Most teachers of the trinity begin their lessons with the caveat that we do not understand the godhead but this is what we have to date. Few believers ever seriously challenge those who espouse the doctrine. I recommend the following with respect to the trinity:
When addressing the doctrine, first state that you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then show how the son is subject to the Father and that the Father has given all things to Christ so that whatever Christ is it is because the Father bestowed such on the son. Then you can show that Christ and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to continue the teachings of Jesus Christ. In Acts 5 when Annanias lied to the Holy Spirit, he was said to have lied unto God because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
In this manner you can show that you embrace the same Father, Son, and Holy Spirit without creating a dissention. Sometimes it's necessary to go head to head with folks that want to preach the rudiments of the traditional doctrine of the trinity, but that is rare in real life.
It's somewhat comparable to Christmas, it can be a wonderful way to witness or it can be misused to support greed.
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 15 2008,09:53) Nick; The trinity doctrine isn't the enemy. Many good men and women of God embrace the doctrine, probably for lack of knowledge and a better understanding. The trinity doctrine doesn't actually claim to understand the godhead. Most teachers of the trinity begin their lessons with the caveat that we do not understand the godhead but this is what we have to date. Few believers ever seriously challenge those who espouse the doctrine. I recommend the following with respect to the trinity:
When addressing the doctrine, first state that you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then show how the son is subject to the Father and that the Father has given all things to Christ so that whatever Christ is it is because the Father bestowed such on the son. Then you can show that Christ and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to continue the teachings of Jesus Christ. In Acts 5 when Annanias lied to the Holy Spirit, he was said to have lied unto God because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
In this manner you can show that you embrace the same Father, Son, and Holy Spirit without creating a dissention. Sometimes it's necessary to go head to head with folks that want to preach the rudiments of the traditional doctrine of the trinity, but that is rare in real life.
It's somewhat comparable to Christmas, it can be a wonderful way to witness or it can be misused to support greed.
Steven
I believe it is much simpler then that. Your way of dealing with the trinitarian is dependent on them agreeing with you on the interprettion of said scriptures. If we all believed on the truth that scripture speaks there would be no Trinity doctrine.
I would ask them is they blieve in teaching and if teaching has a purpose. If they can agree that the plan of God is to raise up sons and daughters with God's character and teaching should promote this, then ask them how the trinity promotes that growth. Basically you are asking them for the fruit of their docrine. The only thing a trinitarian can clain as fruit (though it really isn't) is a philosophical mystery based on historical dogma. It is simple abstract knwledge that does nothing to change the character or heart of a person.Mr. Steve…..> the trinitarian Doctrine is far more damaging then you are expressing, it sets up Idolatry and is Hated by God, Idolatry was the reason God Kicked the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judea out of their lands, it goes against the First commandment. There is only one God and one Creator of all things and thats God the Father, the teaching of the trinity and preexistence destroyes the absolute Sovereignty of Our God, and creates a mindset of the man of sin. These false teachings set up the idea that man is incharge of His own destiny and through his free will determins his own eternal out come . These teach cascade into a whole host of false assumptions, many of which are expressed even on the site all the time. You delude yourself if you think these teaching arn't that bad, they have and still do destroy peoples minds and lives. They are acursed teachings that seperate people from their God and prevent many from being blessed in their lives.
IMO…………gene
Continuing the look at the Trinity, it is interesting the way in which the OT deals with the Spirit. The word most often translated in Hebrew as “spirit” is “ruahh”
From the very beginning it is obvious that God’s breath was the animating force that Gave Adam life. This is continued in the rest of humanity as is made clear in Job —
Job 27
3For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
4My lips certainly will not speak unjustly,
Nor will my tongue mutter deceit.
Job 33
4″The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.The same word for breath or wind is translated in other curious ways. —
Deut 33
13Of Joseph he said,?”Blessed of the LORD be his land,?With the choice things of heaven, with the dew, And from the deep lying beneath, ?
14And with the choice yield of the sun,? And with the choice produce of the months. (ruahh)Job 31
32″The alien has not lodged outside,
For I have opened my doors to the traveler. (ruahh)Exo 11
5and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl who is behind the millstones;(ruahh) all the firstborn of the cattle as well.What does wind/breath, months, traveler, and millstone have in common? To understand that one must understand that the Hebrews did not view their world from an abstract intellectualized construct. A simple nomadic people they saw things in a very organic manner. They saw their world from a functional viewpoint. They related everything including the workings of God to the real and natural world and their culture. They viewed their world and God’s dealings with them through their five senses.
All of these things follow a prescribed path. The months from one to another. The traveler to his destination and the millstone on it’s continual circular path. in the same way the natural trade winds common in the Far East followed a prescribed path. These winds were a guide to these nomadic people. Though the wind itself cannot be seen, the effects of the wind can, in the moving of the leaves and the pressure of the moving air against their bodies.
God has a prescribed path for us to follow. It is straight and does not vary. The Hebrew word for straight is tsadirq and is often translated righteousPsalms 1
6For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.Psalms 27
11Teach me Your way, O LORD,
And lead me in a level pathWhen God gives us a new breath, His breath, He will cause us to follow His path.
Eze 36
26″Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit (breath) within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27″I will put My Spirit (breath) within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.It is also interesting to note that the word “holy” literally means set aside for a special purpose. When we see the terms “Holy Spirit” it literally means — the breath of God that is set aside as the source of life and to guide and direct you along the path of righteousness.
This understanding of the Holy Spirit easily translates into the New Testament. In fact the Greek word “pneuma” means exactly the same as “ruahh” in the Hebrew = Wind or breath.God promises His special wind/breath will direct the Apostles along their prescribed path.
Acts 1:8?but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”God also directed Jesus along his prescribed path.
Ats 10:38?”You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit (his special wind breath) and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.Paul relied on the breath/wind of God in him to do what was prescribed on his path.
Romans 15:19?in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit(breath of God); so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.We are commanded to have that same breath in us to guide us on our path.
Ephesians 3:16?that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit (wind/breath) in the inner man,Jesus had this breath upon Him
Matthew 3:16?After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit (wind breath) of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,Jesus was full of the breath of God and led by it.
Luke 4:1? Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, (special breath) returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit (wind/breath) in the wildernessWe too are to be filled with the breath of God. If fact we are to be filled to the same degree as Jesus.
Eph 3
16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be FILLED UP TO ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD.Does this filling of the breath/wind of God make us or Jesus deity? NO, but it does make us all partakers of the divine nature.
What is the end of the prescribed path for us? That we become mature men, even as Christ our example.
Ephesians 4:13?until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.Hi Martian,
You say
“Job 27
3For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
4My lips certainly will not speak unjustly,
Nor will my tongue mutter deceit.
Job 33
4″The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”Jb27
3 All the while my breath [n@shamh 5397] is in me, and the spirit [ruwach 7307] of God is in my nostrils;Jb33
4 The Spirit of God [7307]hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty [5397] hath given me life.Being made
and
living
are separate issues and the words should not be regarded as parallelisms in these contexts.
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