The Trinity Doctrine

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 03 2008,05:51) Quote Misrepresentation! Untrue! The Father did not come in the Flesh! However, if the Father wanted to he could have, but the Word/God Yeshua came in the flesh. WJ; Our beliefs should be based upon what Jesus said, not what he didn't say. You are now arguing that just because Jesus didn't make a claim that doesn't mean that it is not true. This was in one of your prior 20 posts. You and I have posted each other many times. From what I can gather from your posts, you believe the following based upon John 1:1: 1) That Christ was the Word prior to his birth on earth, 2) That the Word was God, 3) That Christ was not the Son of God prior to coming to earth. Are any of these statements inconsistent with your beliefs? Based on the beliefs above, lets look at each one and see if Jesus confirmed these beliefs. Where did Jesus say he was the Word prior to his birth as a man? Where did he say he was not the Son of God prior to coming to earth? Where did he say he was God prior to coming to earth? This belief espouses that God became the Son of God when he came to earth. So where did Jesus say he was God prior and became the Son of God by the Holy Spirit in Mary? By the way, I've never asked you to dance, nor will I. By your own admission of over 4000 posts, you should be able to answer the above questions. We have tried to answer your questions. Steven mr steve Good! I am glad you dont want to dance with me. Read this and learn who the Word is in John 1:1. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375 Blessings!

WJ;

Thanks for the referral post. I've read the “ho” view before.

Here's my question, why do the conclusions of the poster contradict what Christ taught with respect to the nature of the relationship of him and his Father;i.e., he is solely subject to God the Father, he calls his Father his God, he never says that he is God but actually denies the accusation, and much much more.

My view is that you can easily find the answers just by reading what Christ taught without having to know greek. The scribes and Pharisees knew greek and hebrew, few of them believed what Jesus taught.

Your allegiance for the trinity doctrine is incomparable. From what I read in scripture, it contradicts the teachings of Christ.

Take care,

Steven

[GeneBalthrop]

martian…….> good post I see it that way too, Jesus portrayed by trinitarians is a Jesus that counterdicts himself for instence > he can do nothing of himself then he is God Himself, these are counterdictory terms and like you said you get a Jeaus or God or diety of confusion , the words wern't His and yet he's the word, and on and on it goes. Unless a person gets rid of the trinity reasonings first he will never see clearly the real man Jesus the Christ, a man no less a man then us nor no greater man then us, but an exact same man as us. When we relate with Jesus that way is when we become truly connected with him.

IMHO ……..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All!

Can anyone follow a man that they cannot see?

I thought we are to follow God?

To follow God is to be led by the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, is it not?

If we say we cannot follow God unless we follow a mere man, would be to say that the Hebrews could not follow God untill Yeshua came in the flesh, right?

What about Enoch? He was not, because he pleased God. When is the last time you met someone like this? Was Enoch not functional? Did he not believe in God? He didnt have a mere man to follow did he?

Following God would mean keeping his commandments right?

This would be functional right?

Jesus said…

Jn 15:3 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
15 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Why did Jesus say “This is my commandment” and not the Fathers?

Jesus also said…

Matt 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Is this not functionality?

How does believing Jesus is God as the scriptures say, keep one from keeping the commandments or being led by the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ?

Rom 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the *Spirit of God dwells in you*. But if anyone does not have *the Spirit of Christ*, he does not belong to Him.

Can anyone give me an example how you follow Jesus as a mere man whom you cannot see? Is it limited to 27 books in the scriptures?

Can anyone who does not have a Trinitarian view of Christ give me an example of how they follow Christ and the Trinitarian cannot?

Is their one thing that you can mention that you can follow Yeshua “Functionally” as strictly a man?

Is there anyone here that claims that through faith in their own name that they healed the sick lately? See Acts 3:16.

Is their anyone here that has walked on water lately, or commanded the storms, or raised the dead, or healed the sick, or healed the lame man, or gave his flesh to be eaten or his blood to drink, or has baptised someone in the Holy Spirit, or has created anything from nothing, or has put on a body part like an ear, or has answered prayers made to them, or has walked through walls.

Many of the things mentioned above were not even done by any of the early Apostles that we know of!

Sure you say Jesus as a mere man could only do these things because the Father gave him this power. Which is a lie and distortion of the truth. Yeshua could not do anything apart from the Father because he came to only do the will of the Father. He is the creator of the Universe, the world was mad by him yet the world did not know him. Heb 1:10, Jn 1:3, Jn 1:10

But If you follow this man why are you not doing these things?

Where is the functionality in your life of the above things that you claim your doctrine promotes mr “Arian”?

Yeshua said..

Jn 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Can you make this claim mr “Arian”?

To say that we follow Yeshua as a mere man is “Arian” heresy.

In fact it is not possible. How can you serve him as a man if you cannot see him in the flesh?

You cannnot serve God apart from Yeshua, and you cannot serve Yeshua apart from the Spirit of God, which are One.

Give me a scripture that says other wise.

Truly Arianism, Henotheism, Unitarianism are products of man made doctrines that deny the Deity of Yeshua which is clearly taught in scritpures, thereby robbing him of the honour the Father would have us put on him, Yeshua.

For even the Father declares he is God and commands the angels to worship him..

Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jn 5:23
So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Honoring Jesus as God

The Meaning of John 5:23 as taken from Bible Expositors

Sam Shamoun

Since Bassam Zawadi loves quoting Bible expositors when it suits his purpose we have decided to include the views of specific commentators regarding the meaning of John 5:23, supplementing our answer to this article.

Donald A. Carson

23. The reason why the Father has entrusted all judgment to the Son is now disclosed: it is so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whatever functional subordination may be stressed in this section, it guarantees, as we have seen, that the Son does everything that the Father does (cf. notes on vv. 19-20); and now Jesus declares that its purpose is that the Son may be at one with the Father not only in activity but in honour. This goes far beyond making Jesus a mere ambassador who acts in the name of the monarch who sent him, an envoy plenipotentiary whose derived authority is the equivalent of his master’s.

That analogue breaks down precisely here, for the honour given to an envoy is never that given to the head of state. The Jews were right in detecting that Jesus was ‘making himself equal with God’ (vv. 17-18). But this does not diminish God. Indeed, the glorification of the Son is precisely what glorifies the Father (cf. notes on 12:28), just as in Philippians 2:9-11, where at the name of Jesus every knew bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, and all this to the glory of God the Father. Because of the unique relation between the Father and the Son, the God who declares ‘I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another’ (Is. 42:8; cf. Is. 48:11) is not compromised or diminished when divine honours crown the head of the Son.

Granted that the purpose of the Father is that all should honour the Son, it is but a small step to Jesus’ conclusion: He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him. In a theistic universe, such a statement belongs to one who is himself to be addressed as God (cf. 20:28), or to stark insanity. The one who utters such things is to be dismissed with pity or scorn, or worshiped as Lord. If with much current scholarship we retreat to seeing in such material less the claims of the Son than the beliefs and witness of the Evangelist and his church, the same options confront us. Either John is supremely deluded and must be dismissed as a fool, or his witness is true and Jesus is to ascribed honours due God alone, There is no rational middle ground. (Carson, The Gospel According to John [William Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI/ Cambridge, U.K.], pp. 254-255)

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Verse 23. That all men should honour the Son, Son is to be honoured, EVEN AS the Father is honoured, then the Son must be God, as receiving that worship which belongs to God alone. To worship any creature is idolatry: Christ is to be honoured even as the Father is honoured; therefore Christ is not a creature; and, if not a creature, consequently the Creator. See John 1:3.

He that honoureth not the Son
God will not receive that man's adoration who refuses to honour Jesus, even as he honours him. The Jews expected the Messiah as a great and powerful Prince; but they never thought of a pers
on coming in that character enrobed with all the attributes of Godhead. To lead them off from this error, our Lord spoke the words recorded in these verses. (Source; underline emphasis ours)

Albert Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament

Verse 23. That all men should honour, &c. To honour is to esteem, reverence, praise, do homage to. We honour one when we ascribe to him in our hearts, and words, and actions the praise and obedience which are due to him. We honour God when we obey him and worship him aright. We honour the Son when we esteem him to be as he is; when we have right views and feelings toward him. As he is declared to be God (John 1:1), as he here says he has power and authority equal with God, so we honour him when we regard him as such.

The primitive Christians are described by Pliny, in a letter to the Emperor Trajan, as meeting together to sing hymns to Christ as God. So we honour him aright when we regard him as possessed of wisdom, goodness, power, eternity, omniscience — equal with God.

Even as. To the same extent; in the same manner. Since the Son is to be honoured EVEN AS the Father, it follows that he must be equal

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_honor_jesus.htm

Thats functional!

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You should not form your own religion by tacking together some verses.
Follow Jesus and worship his God
if he is your Lord.

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 07 2008,12:19)

Hi All! Can anyone follow a man that they cannot see? I thought we are to follow God? To follow God is to be led by the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, is it not? If we say we cannot follow God unless we follow a mere man, would be to say that the Hebrews could not follow God untill Yeshua came in the flesh, right? What about Enoch? He was not, because he pleased God. When is the last time you met someone like this? Was Enoch not functional? Did he not believe in God? He didnt have a mere man to follow did he? Following God would mean keeping his commandments right? This would be functional right? Jesus said… Jn 15:3 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 15 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Why did Jesus say “This is my commandment” and not the Fathers? Jesus also said… Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Is this not functionality? How does believing Jesus is God as the scriptures say, keep one from keeping the commandments or being led by the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ? Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the *Spirit of God dwells in you*. But if anyone does not have *the Spirit of Christ*, he does not belong to Him. Can anyone give me an example how you follow Jesus as a mere man whom you cannot see? Is it limited to 27 books in the scriptures? Can anyone who does not have a Trinitarian view of Christ give me an example of how they follow Christ and the Trinitarian cannot? Is their one thing that you can mention that you can follow Yeshua “Functionally” as strictly a man? Is there anyone here that claims that through faith in their own name that they healed the sick lately? See Acts 3:16. Is their anyone here that has walked on water lately, or commanded the storms, or raised the dead, or healed the sick, or healed the lame man, or gave his flesh to be eaten or his blood to drink, or has baptised someone in the Holy Spirit, or has created anything from nothing, or has put on a body part like an ear, or has answered prayers made to them, or has walked through walls. Many of the things mentioned above were not even done by any of the early Apostles that we know of! Sure you say Jesus as a mere man could only do these things because the Father gave him this power. Which is a lie and distortion of the truth. Yeshua could not do anything apart from the Father because he came to only do the will of the Father. He is the creator of the Universe, the world was mad by him yet the world did not know him. Heb 1:10, Jn 1:3, Jn 1:10 But If you follow this man why are you not doing these things? Where is the functionality in your life of the above things that you claim your doctrine promotes mr “Arian”? Yeshua said.. Jn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Can you make this claim mr “Arian”? To say that we follow Yeshua as a mere man is “Arian” heresy. In fact it is not possible. How can you serve him as a man if you cannot see him in the flesh? You cannnot serve God apart from Yeshua, and you cannot serve Yeshua apart from the Spirit of God, which are One. Give me a scripture that says other wise. Truly Arianism, Henotheism, Unitarianism are products of man made doctrines that deny the Deity of Yeshua which is clearly taught in scritpures, thereby robbing him of the honour the Father would have us put on him, Yeshua. For even the Father declares he is God and commands the angels to worship him.. Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Jn 5:23 So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Honoring Jesus as God The Meaning of John 5:23 as taken from Bible Expositors Sam Shamoun Since Bassam Zawadi loves quoting Bible expositors when it suits his purpose we have decided to include the views of specific commentators regarding the meaning of John 5:23, supplementing our answer to this article. Donald A. Carson 23. The reason why the Father has entrusted all judgment to the Son is now disclosed: it is so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whatever functional subordination may be stressed in this section, it guarantees, as we have seen, that the Son does everything that the Father does (cf. notes on vv. 19-20); and now Jesus declares that its purpose is that the Son may be at one with the Father not only in activity but in honour. This goes far beyond making Jesus a mere ambassador who acts in the name of the monarch who sent him, an envoy plenipotentiary whose derived authority is the equivalent of his master’s. That analogue breaks down precisely here, for the honour given to an envoy is never that given to the head of state. The Jews were right in detecting that Jesus was ‘making himself equal with God’ (vv. 17-18). But this does not diminish God. Indeed, the glorification of the Son is precisely what glorifies the Father (cf. notes on 12:28), just as in Philippians 2:9-11, where at the name of Jesus every knew bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, and all this to the glory of God the Father. Because of the unique relation between the Father and the Son, the God who declares ‘I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another’ (Is. 42:8; cf. Is. 48:11) is not compromised or diminished when divine honours crown the head of the Son. Granted that the purpose of the Father is that all should honour the Son, it is but a small step to Jesus’ conclusion: He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him. In a theistic universe, such a statement belongs to one who is himself to be addressed as God (cf. 20:28), or to stark insanity. The one who utters such things is to be dismissed with pity or scorn, or worshiped as Lord. If with much current scholarship we retreat to seeing in such material less the claims of the Son than the beliefs and witness of the Evangelist and his church, the same options confront us. Either John is supremely deluded and must be dismissed as a fool, or his witness is true and Jesus is to ascribed honours due God alone, There is no rational middle ground. (Carson, The Gospel According to John [William Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI/ Cambridge, U.K.], pp. 254-255) The Adam Clarke Commentary Verse 23. That all men should honour the Son, Son is to be honoured, EVEN AS the Father is honoured, then the Son must be God, as receiving that worship which belongs to God alone. To worship any creature is idolatry: Christ is to be honoured even as the Father is honoured; therefore Christ is not a creature; and, if not a creature, consequently the Creator. See John 1:3. He that honoureth not the Son God will not receive that man's adoration who refuses to honour Jesus, even as he honours him. The Jews expected the Messiah as a great and powerful Prince; but they never thought of a person coming in that character enrobed with all the attributes of Godhead. To lead them off from this error, our Lord spoke the words recorded in these verses. (Source; underline emphasis ours) Albert Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament Verse 23. That all men should honour, &c. To honour is to esteem, reverence, praise, do homage to. We honour one when we ascribe to him in our hearts, and words, and actions the praise and obedience which are due to him. We honour God when we obey him and worship him aright. We honour the Son when we esteem him to be as he is; when we have right views and feelings toward him. As he is declared to be God (John 1:1), as he here says he has power and authority equal with God, so we honour him when we regard him as such. The primitive Christians are described by Pliny, in a letter to the Emperor Trajan, as meeting together to sing hymns to Christ as God. So we honour him aright when we regard him as possessed of wisdom, goodness, power, eternity, omniscience — equal with God. Even as. To the same extent; in the same manner. Since the Son is to be honoured EVEN AS the Father, it follows that he must be equal http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_honor_jesus.htm Thats functional!

WJ
Can anyone follow a man that they cannot see?

Reply
Who said we cannot see him. I have seen Jesus many times in visions. I have had him speak to me in prayer and through prophecy. He did not do this because He is deity, He did this because all power in heaven and earth was given to him. One reason for that was to complete His mission as the Messiah.

Wj
I thought we are to follow God?

True, but without a viable example of what it means to do that as a human it would be difficult. Secondly from a Hebrew perspective (the authors of scripture) Jesus could be called God because He revealed the character of God without actually being God. (Psalms 82 and John 10) As Paul aid follow me as I follow Christ. What are we to follow? The character of God displayed in both Paul and Christ.

Wj
To follow God is to be led by the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, is it not?

If we say we cannot follow God unless we follow a mere man, would be to say that the Hebrews could not follow God untill Yeshua came in the flesh, right?

Reply –
The Hebrews of the old covenant followed God through faith having not seen the promises fulfilled. The Hebrew definition of faith is an action word not an abstract notion of intellectual belief. It literally means to work within and toward the plan of God. To take action toward the plan/will of God. God’s will was made manifest to everyone that would be open to Him. From Adam to now God has revealed His will through many vehicles and vessels.
Before Christ there was no permanent mediator between God and man. There were, however Temporary mediators such as Abraham that heard from God on behalf of his people. The prophets, kings priests were all mediators because they manifested the character of God toward the people and because they took action toward the will of God. Had Abraham not Taken action and left the Ur of the Chaldeise, he would have missed out on the trememdous blessings that God had planned for him. Many times in the OT men have stepped up to lead toward the will of God. The people had a man to follow.

Wj
What about Enoch? He was not, because he pleased God. When is the last time you met someone like this? Was Enoch not functional? Did he not believe in God? He didnt have a mere man to follow did he?

Reply –
Again you are comparing old covenant and new. All those that would follow God, would be required to do so by faith. They would be required to take action toward God’s will. That will could be anything that God chooses to ask of us, even our very lives. For some it was to preach to Nenevah. Others to leave their home and go where he would lead. Others to build an Ark or a Temple or lead the people in war. All of these are acts of faith, and by these acts the men of the OT pleased God.

In the new covenant we have clear instructions also to take action toward the will of God. We know that we have a mediator and it is our choice to use him or not.
Luke 9:35?Then there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is My Son, My Chosen One or My Beloved; listen to and yield to and obey Him!

God told Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt and Noah to build an Ark. He told us to listen to the man Christ Jesus the mediator between God and man.

Wj –
Following God would mean keeping his commandments right?

This would be functional right?

Jesus said…

Jn 15:3 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
15 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Why did Jesus say “This is my commandment” and not the Fathers?

Jesus also said…

Matt 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Is this not functionality?

Reply –
A couple of points.
1. As already covered, we are commanded to listen to Christ as the representative of God’s character and will.
2. Part of Christ’s ministry was to operate as a prophet. Is it surprising then that he would at times speak first person from God?
Matthew 13:57?And they took offense at Him [they were repelled and hindered from acknowledging His authority, and caused to stumble]. But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.
Matthew 21:11?And the crowds replied, This is the prophet Jesus from Nazareth of Galilee.

Wj
How does believing Jesus is God as the scriptures say, keep one from keeping the commandments or being led by the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ?

Reply –
To have complete faith and actually work toward the plan of God for humanity, one must fulfill the following —
Ephesians 4:13?”[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [ full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.”
1.Full and accurate knowledge of the son of God
2.That knowledge brings about full manhood which is NOTHING LESS then Christ’s own perfection.
3.The measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ? What was Christ filled with? Col 2:9. The fullness of deity dwelled in Him
Ephesians 3:19?[That you may really come] to know [practically, through experience for yourselves] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]; that you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]!
Here in this one verse is the plan of God in a nutshell.
1That you might know the love of Christ. The love of your brother. No greater love
hath a man then he lay down his life for his fellow men. This is the beginning step. SALVATION
2.That through experiancial methods you might continue in the way. As apposed to mere intellectual pursuits.
3.That , like Christ, you might be wholly filled with God, Himself.

Wj
Rom 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the *Spirit of God dwells in you*. But if anyone does not have *the Spirit of Christ*, he does not belong to Him.

Reply-
One of the misconceptions of scripture is that the New testament being written in Greek should be understood from a Greek/western mindset. These were still Hebrews writing within a Hebrew culture and from a Hebrew mindset. One of the synonyms of Spirit from a Hebrew mindset is “character”.
Rom 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the *characer of God dwells in you*. But if anyone does not have *the character of Christ*, he does not belong to Him.
Christ was the perfect representation of the character of God. If one has the character of Christ, he would have the character of God.

Wj
Can anyone give me an example how you follow Jesus as a mere man whom you cannot see? Is it limited to 27 books in the scriptures?

Reply-
Can you tell me how much authority is entitled in “all authority in Heaven and Earth? This is the authority given Christ. Sat upon the right hand of authority in heaven. Glorified in heaven. Given a name above all other names. All of this given to Christ by God. Why can He not answer a billion prayers at once? Why can He not speak to everyone’s heart at once. He has ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH.

Wj-
Can anyone who does not have a Trinitarian view of Christ give me an example of how they follow Christ and the Trinitarian cannot?

Is their one thing that you can mention that you can follow Yeshua “Functionally” as strictly a man?

Reply –
Everything that Christ did on this Earth, including His resurrection is available to mankind. In fact He says greater things shall we do.

Wj
Is there anyone here that claims that through faith in their own name that they healed the sick lately? See Acts 3:16.

Reply-
Acts 3
16And His name, through and by faith in His name, has made this man whom you see and recognize well and strong. [Yes] the faith which is through and by Him [Jesus] has given the man this perfect soundness [of body] before all of you.

Reply –
First there must be a clear understanding of what is faith and the meaning of the term “name”. I have already covered faith as an acting toward the will of God.
This speech was made by a Hebrew to other Hebrews. It is also most likely originally written in Hebrew, (a subject I have discussed before) Either in Hebrew or Greek it is still written by Hebrews about a Hebrew speaking to Hebrews.
The Term name (shem Heb.) caries the concept of character trait. All names carried a description of the character of the individual.
In is common practice in Churches today to end prayers with the phrase ”in the name of Jesus” as if that was a magic montra to insure that the prayer is answered. This has nothing to do with praying in the name of Jesus. What is meant by that is to pray in the character of Jesus. Now look at the verse again with the proper meaning of faith and name and in context. Peter speaking of Christ —

16And His character, through and by taking action toward the will of God in His character, has made this man whom you see and recognize well and strong. [Yes] the action toward God’s will which is through and by Him [Jesus] has given the man this perfect soundness [of body] before all of you.

Peter, like the rest of us performed this miracle by acting within the character of Christ and taking action toward the will of God.

Wj-
Is their anyone here that has walked on water lately, or commanded the storms, or raised the dead, or healed the sick, or healed the lame man, or gave his flesh to be eaten or his blood to drink, or has baptised someone in the Holy Spirit, or has created anything from nothing, or has put on a body part like an ear, or has answered prayers made to them, or has walked through walls.

Many of the things mentioned above were not even done by any of the early Apostles that we know of!

Reply –
First you are mixing things open to all men with those things restricted to Christ alone because of His mantle as the Messiah and mediator. I am not the Messiah or the mediator between God and man. Therefore I do not answer prayers or baptize in the special breath ro give my body and blood. Those are restricted to the mediator and Messiah. That does not make Him deity just a different mantle on him.
As to the rest o the things you mentioned. I have prayed for the sick and they have recovered. I have seen many miracles acted upon myself and others. I was miraculously raised from my death bed when no doctor gave me any chance. In the coma prior to this Jesus visited me in my sleep. I have operated in prophecy, tongues and interpretation and revelations such as word of wisdom and knowledge.
If you are not moving in these realms perhaps it is time you ask why not?

Wj
Sure you say Jesus as a mere man could only do these things because the Father gave him this power. Which is a lie and distortion of the truth. Yeshua could not do anything apart from the Father because he came to only do the will of the Father. He is the creator of the Universe, the world was mad by him yet the world did not know him. Heb 1:10, Jn 1:3, Jn 1:10

Reply –
I am not going to cover this since you refuse to accept the Greek in these verses.

Wj
But If you follow this man why are you not doing these things?

Reply
already covered.

Wj
Where is the functionality in your life of the above things that you claim your doctrine promotes mr “Arian”?

Reply –
And why do you call me mr Arian? Do you even know what Arius believed? Of course you do not! No one knows because Arius’ writings were destroyed and all that is left is the reports of his accusers. If all that remains of your beliefs is what is recorded by your opposites on this board, would that be an accurate show of your beliefs?

Yeshua said..

Jn 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Can you make this claim mr “Arian”?

Reply –
I am not perfect and have never made that claim. I still operate in my own knowledge of good and evil. I still have sin blocking me from doing all that God would have me do. I still do not accurately do the will of my Father. I still (in the present time) am being perfected by what I suffer. None of what I mentioned was the case with Jesus. He attained his perfection. Not because He was God but because He never picked up the knowledge of Good and Evil as Adam did.
I do not know if I will ever be perfect as Christ was, but I know in attitude and desire and character it is my will and the will of my Father that I strive toward that upward calling. Without Christ complete humanity that upward calling would be a fraud.

Wj
To say that we follow Yeshua as a mere man is “Arian” heresy.

In fact it is not possible. How can you serve him as a man if you cannot see him in the flesh?

You cannnot serve God apart from Yeshua, and you cannot serve Yeshua apart from the Spirit of God, which are One.

Give me a scripture that says other wise.

Truly Arianism, Henotheism, Unitarianism are products of man made doctrines that deny the Deity of Yeshua which is clearly taught in scritpures, thereby robbing him of the honour the Father would have us put on him, Yeshua.

For even the Father declares he is God and commands the angels to worship him..

Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith
, And let all the angels of God worship him.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jn 5:23
So that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Honoring Jesus as God

The Meaning of John 5:23 as taken from Bible Expositors

Sam Shamoun

Since Bassam Zawadi loves quoting Bible expositors when it suits his purpose we have decided to include the views of specific commentators regarding the meaning of John 5:23, supplementing our answer to this article.

Donald A. Carson

23. The reason why the Father has entrusted all judgment to the Son is now disclosed: it is so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whatever functional subordination may be stressed in this section, it guarantees, as we have seen, that the Son does everything that the Father does (cf. notes on vv. 19-20); and now Jesus declares that its purpose is that the Son may be at one with the Father not only in activity but in honour. This goes far beyond making Jesus a mere ambassador who acts in the name of the monarch who sent him, an envoy plenipotentiary whose derived authority is the equivalent of his master’s.

That analogue breaks down precisely here, for the honour given to an envoy is never that given to the head of state. The Jews were right in detecting that Jesus was ‘making himself equal with God’ (vv. 17-18). But this does not diminish God. Indeed, the glorification of the Son is precisely what glorifies the Father (cf. notes on 12:28), just as in Philippians 2:9-11, where at the name of Jesus every knew bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord, and all this to the glory of God the Father. Because of the unique relation between the Father and the Son, the God who declares ‘I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another’ (Is. 42:8; cf. Is. 48:11) is not compromised or diminished when divine honours crown the head of the Son.

Granted that the purpose of the Father is that all should honour the Son, it is but a small step to Jesus’ conclusion: He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him. In a theistic universe, such a statement belongs to one who is himself to be addressed as God (cf. 20:28), or to stark insanity. The one who utters such things is to be dismissed with pity or scorn, or worshiped as Lord. If with much current scholarship we retreat to seeing in such material less the claims of the Son than the beliefs and witness of the Evangelist and his church, the same options confront us. Either John is supremely deluded and must be dismissed as a fool, or his witness is true and Jesus is to ascribed honours due God alone, There is no rational middle ground. (Carson, The Gospel According to John [William Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI/ Cambridge, U.K.], pp. 254-255)

The Adam Clarke Commentary

Verse 23. That all men should honour the Son, Son is to be honoured, EVEN AS the Father is honoured, then the Son must be God, as receiving that worship which belongs to God alone. To worship any creature is idolatry: Christ is to be honoured even as the Father is honoured; therefore Christ is not a creature; and, if not a creature, consequently the Creator. See John 1:3.

He that honoureth not the Son
God will not receive that man's adoration who refuses to honour Jesus, even as he honours him. The Jews expected the Messiah as a great and powerful Prince; but they never thought of a person coming in that character enrobed with all the attributes of Godhead. To lead them off from this error, our Lord spoke the words recorded in these verses. (Source; underline emphasis ours)

Albert Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament

Verse 23. That all men should honour, &c. To honour is to esteem, reverence, praise, do homage to. We honour one when we ascribe to him in our hearts, and words, and actions the praise and obedience which are due to him. We honour God when we obey him and worship him aright. We honour the Son when we esteem him to be as he is; when we have right views and feelings toward him. As he is declared to be God (John 1:1), as he here says he has power and authority equal with God, so we honour him when we regard him as such.

The primitive Christians are described by Pliny, in a letter to the Emperor Trajan, as meeting together to sing hymns to Christ as God. So we honour him aright when we regard him as possessed of wisdom, goodness, power, eternity, omniscience — equal with God.

Even as. To the same extent; in the same manner. Since the Son is to be honoured EVEN AS the Father, it follows that he must be equal

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_honor_jesus.htm

Thats functional!

Reply-
I am not impressd with your authorities. I can find people with books and tapes that claim Jesus is an alien from another planet. So what!

[martian]

Wj,
A few more points to consider. You spoke of Enoch
Heb 11:5
Because of FAITH Enoch was caught up and transferred to heaven, so that he did not have a glimpse of death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For even before he was taken to heaven, he received testimony [still on record] that he had pleased and been satisfactory to God.
Faith. The taking action toward the will of God.
And how did he do that?
Genesis 5:24?And Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God; and he was not, for God took him [home with Him]
Prior to the fall God walked in the cool of the day with Adam in the Garden. They had fellowship with Him. Did Enoch walk without sin as Adam before the fall?

Are we of the same nature as Christ? From the amplified Bible —
1 Corinthians 15:22?For just as [because of their union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.

Almost every chapter of scripture tells the same story. A story (sadly to say) you do not agree with.

Notice in the following chapter of Romans the reference to the Messiah and the anointed one. There are human callings not divine needs or qualities. Notice further that the good things we can expect come through that same anointed one and Messiah. Because of His work we have a doorway by which we may boldly enter the thrown of Grace

Romans 5
1THEREFORE, SINCE we are justified (acquitted, declared righteous, and given a right standing with God) through faith (taking action toward God’s will), let us [grasp the fact that we] have [the peace of reconciliation to hold and to enjoy] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
2Through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith (taking action toward God’s will) into this grace (state of God's favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God.
3Moreover [let us also be full of joy now!] let us exult and triumph in our troubles and rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that pressure and affliction and hardship produce patient and unswerving endurance.
4And endurance (fortitude) develops maturity of character (approved faith (action toward God’s will) and tried integrity). And character [of this sort] produces [the habit of] joyful and confident hope of eternal salvation.

I have been as patient as I know how to be with you WJ. I have tried to answer your questions. Now I would like you to answer mine.
1 How does Christ a deity make Him a more viable example for me.
2. If Christ is God, How do I know which of the mighty things He did I can do? After all I am simple man. If you believe the dual nature theory there are no footnotes in the bible dictating which things He did as man and which things He did as God.
3. Christ was raised from the dead, yet He is God. How is that an example I can have belief in? I am again simply human. How do I know I will be raised?
4. If Christ is God and overcame sin, how is that an example of how I am to overcome sin?

Now if you want to make a block statement along the lines that Christ gave up His deity to become a man, you are going against the very nature of God in His immutability. God does not change. The one thing God cannot do is stop being God. So either Christ is God all the time or is not God all the time. There is no inbetween.

[GeneBalthrop]

Martain……..> good and right post, I have had many of the same mircales happen in my life as you also have had.

Peace to you brother……………..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

The Hebrew root aman (faith) means firm, something that is supported or secure. This word is used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a “secure” place. Derived from this root is the word emun meaning a craftsman. A craftsman is one who is firm and secure in his talent. Also derived from aman is the word emunah meaning firmness, something or someone that is firm in their actions. When the Hebrew word emunah is translated as faith misconceptions of its meaning occur. Faith is usually perceived as a knowing while the Hebrew emunah is a firm action. To have faith in God is not knowing that God exists or knowing that he will act, rather it is that the one with emunah will act with firmness toward God's will.

Very Good. However, I disagree with the last part that faith can not also be a “Knowing” that God is or that God exist. Or a “knowing that God will act.

Scriptures say that…

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

There are many examples in scripture where the believer could not do anything but simply believe, which also in the Greek means to trust.

For example…

Jn 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? (All she could do is trust and believe, no works here)
41 Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

Jn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

The Trinity leaves nothing to act toward. It is totally dysfunctional toward the will/plan of God.

Can you give me an example of how your doctrine is functional, and what you do toward the will and plan of God that a Trinitarian cannot or does not do because of his faith?

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

It does nothing and produces nothing except mystical philosophy to carry in your data processor/brain. It does nothing to produce fruit because it is not a functional doctrine. It does not produce faith because there is nothing to work toward.

Examples please. You simply speak in the air with no logical proof in that data processor/brain you call it.

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

God has always required man to be reasonable and to work with Him to accomplish the His goals for yourself and others.

Make up your mind. Are you following the mere man Jesus or are you following God? Can you tell the difference?

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

The God Trinitarians follow is a god of mystery. They cannot really know him by faith.

Faith in whom? Yeshua or The Father? Jesus said you cannot come to the Father but by him. Seems to me the Trinitarians give more honour to the Son than ATs. The Father commands such, “Hear ye Him”..

For we are to honour the Son even as we honour the Father. Jn 5:23 See previous post.

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

The god They follow gives them teachings that produce nothing. He does not seem to want them to become like Christ.

This statement makes no sense. You imply we are to follow God and yet become like a mere man. I thought we were to be partaking of the divine nature? Can you do that apart from Yeshua who is Divine? But according to your view you should derive divine nature from a man.

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

The god they follow reveals to them a Christ that cannot be a real pattern for them and yet requires them to pattern themselves after that Christ. Their god is either confused or unfair.

Again, give me an example of the pattern that you claim Trinitarians follow that is confusing and unfair or especially unscriptural.

Otherwise you speak empty words into the air.

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

In the case of Jesus being dual natured, there is no clearcut pattern to follow that tells you what He did via human nature and what he did via divine nature

When you can tell me how Yeshua could raise himself from the dead, or how he could give his flesh to eat and his blood to drink and baptize men in the Holy Spirit and be everywhere at the same time, and how a mere man can be the image of the invisible God and the express image of his person/substance, then your claim that he is a mere man without a dual nature as the scriptures teach is a straw.

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2008,01:54)

It is not as if there are footnotes that indicate this verse was Jesus as God and this verse was Jesus as man. In fact there is not a single thing that Jesus did and recorded in the gospels that other men canno t do.

Really? Can any man do the following…

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Was Jesus not a man?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2008,09:44)

Jn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Let’s see a mere man do that!!!

WJ, Jesus is the son of God.

We are sons of God, but not the son of God.

No matter what you say, you will never destroy the fact that he is the son of God.

He is not (the) God.

He is not just a prophet.

He is not a mere Cherubim or Seraph.

HE IS THE SON OF GOD AND THE MESSIAH

Matthew 16:15-17
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Your counter argument to this is that you believe that he is the son of God AND God?

But do you really believe that he is the son of God if he is also God?

JWs say that Jesus is the son of God, AND Michael.

Mormons say he is the son of God, AND the brother of Lucifer

Trinitarians/Catholics say that he is the son of God, AND God.

So now we have groups saying that he is God, Michael, and the brother of Lucifer.

But scripture says that he is the son of God, the firstborn of all creation, the image of God.

The problem with cults/denominations is the AND bit.

They are subtle denials that Jesus is the son OF God.

But the gates of Hell will not prevail against this truth WJ, so you might as well give up now. Your effort to change this truth is done in vain.

Jesus is the son of God. Why not spend your effort preaching that instead of saying he is God? Just do and teach what the apostles and disciples did in scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
If you worship the Lord Jesus because of the works done through him
how will you treat Christ's servants who do even greater things?

Jn14
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Hi All! Can anyone follow a man that they cannot see? I thought we are to follow God? To follow God is to be led by the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, is it not? If we say we cannot follow God unless we follow a mere man, would be to say that the Hebrews could not follow God untill Yeshua came in the flesh, right? What about Enoch? He was not, because he pleased God. When is the last time you met someone like this? Was Enoch not functional? Did he not believe in God? He didnt have a mere man to follow did he?

WJ;

I'm not sure what the issue is that you are presenting here. Has someone suggested Christ cannot be followed?

All of the wonderful things that you have said about Jesus including being raised from the dead and giving us his flesh to eat and his blood to drink. He is our Lord and God's Son.

I still can't understand why you do not believe that he came down from heaven and was sent from the Father. I know you contend that he was the Word, but the scripture says that the Word was God not the Son of God.

When we understand the Word as God procreative power or the power of God as Paul says, I can understand John 1:1 much better.

All of the people that identified Jesus called him the Son of God, not the Word of God. The Father did not say this is my Word in whom I am well pleased, but my Son.

Sometimes I think you are rejecting the truth of who Jesus said he was. My hunch is because you have been indoctrinated by others who believe the same way, but that does not make it true.

Take care,

Steven

[NickHassan]

Hi Steve,
What do you make of 1 Jn1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the WORD of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) “

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You superficially examine scripture without context to find support for your gnostic theory.
We should not abuse scripture in this way.

Examples
“Yeshua can be everywhere at the same time.”

Well of course the Spirit of Christ fills his body.
But he was not always full of that Spirit.

As you say
“Yeshua dwells in millions of believers by his Spirit all over the world. Rom 8:9, 2 Cor 13:5”

Check the context
Matt 18:20 CHURCH,
Matt 28:20 CHURCH,
Jn 14:23 CHURCH

“Yeshua has “All Power” in heaven and earth. Matt 28:18, Heb 1:3”
He was GIVEN this, he did not always have it

“Yeshua fills all things.
Eph 1:23, CHURCH
4:10, He WILL fill all things

Christ is for us the CHANNEL now of the GRACE from the SOURCE -GOD.

He came as a man bereft of all advantage and was filled with God's Spirit as an example to us so we can follow him. He was not the God that filled him.

[martian]

I doubt you will accept my answers to your questions. I have come to accept that you are beyond reasoning outside of the box of dogma that you live in. However I will answer some of those that I think might be of interest to others on here. I might even do it without calling you a follower of the sun worshiper Contantine.

Wj
Very Good. However, I disagree with the last part that faith can not also be a “Knowing” that God is or that God exist. Or a “knowing that God will act.

Several points to consider.
I know you will most likely disagree with this but there has been much written (even in the reference works) that has been influenced by a western mindset. One of the primary differences being a paridine shift from the concrete thinking of the Hebrews to the abstract thinking of the Westrn civilizations. Until recently few scholars have bothered to even consider the cultural bias that exist in our Western philosophical/abstract thinking.
Secondly – I believe it is reasonable to assume that concepts such as Faith and Belief and even the nature of God have not changed from the OT to the NT. You rightly study the Greek to ascertain meanings of words. If there is an equivelent word in the Hebrew, I might suggest that a more clear definition might be found in ancient Pictographs that proceeded the written Hebrew alphabetic language. The Hebrew word for belief has the same roots parent words as that of faith. One of the root words comes from the terms used in
Exodus 17:12?But Moses' hands were heavy and grew weary. So [the other men] took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Then Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side and one on the other side; so his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
It carries the idea of lending support to the work of God. Working with God to accomplish his goals. Taking action toward the will of God.

Wj-
Scriptures say that…

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Response –
Now taking action toward the will of God gives us the assurance of the things we hope for and builds within us a conviction that we will see the things we have not yet seen.

This conviction and assurance come from the fact that we are taking action toward the will of God. We are rightly working with God.

You say –
There are many examples in scripture where the believer could not do anything but simply believe, which also in the Greek means to trust.

For example…

Jn 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? (All she could do is trust and believe, no works here)
41 Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

Actually there was an action taken. Jesus tells them to take the stone away. Martha voices doubt because He had been dead four days. (Hebrews believed that the soul remained near the body for three days and then left to the after life.) This doubt was based on the understanding that no one can come back from the after life. (the fact that God does is an even greater miracle then just raising from the dead) The action required by the Lord was their removing the stone. One must understand that Hebrews think in very organic ways. Their world, even the spiritual is centered around the five senses. Moving the stone was an action toward the will of God. By taking that action they placed themselves in agreement with God’s will and supported it by their actions. I recognize that taking away the stone seems a small thing to do. That is one of the problems of Western thought, we tend to over complicate things. Jesus told them to bear a light burden. Remember that as you continue to read.

Wj
Can you give me an example of how your doctrine is functional, and what you do toward the will and plan of God that a Trinitarian cannot or does not do because of his faith?

Response –
An abstract belief produces no fruit. In the doctrine/teaching of the Trinity, there is no action possible. There is nothing you can do within that doctrine that produces anything other then more abstract thought.
Abstract belief is like the man that has financial need so he prays and believes that God will bless him. He bases this on scripture that states that God wants to bless him.
The man that takes action toward God’s will would do something to assist God and work with him. For example; in many cases God is waiting for us to make decisions and to learn from those decisions that we might develop character and wisdom. Without action we never learn from our mistakes. So the man goes out and looks for a job. Because the man has taken action God can bless or at the least guide him to another option. Without the action of looking for a job, God cannot supply his need with a good job. I will answer the rest of your question at the end.

Wj
Make up your mind. Are you following the mere man Jesus or are you following God? Can you tell the difference?

Response –
I am obeying God and following Jesus. God’s will is for me to have his character developed in me and to allow Him to live vicariously in me and through me. What does it mean to have the character of God in a human being? Thankfully God saw this need and gave me an example of what it is to have the fullness of the deity of God dwelling in and revealed through a human being. That example is Jesus Christ. The very term Christian means followers of Christ. We follow him because he is the foreruner of human compliance with God’s will. He is the example and the standard by which we measure our compliance with God’s will.

Wj
You imply we are to follow God and yet become like a mere man. I thought we were to be partaking of the divine nature? Can you do that apart from Yeshua who is Divine? But according to your view you should derive divine nature from a man.

Response –
We are to follow God as exemplified by the way Jesus followed God. We are to partake of the divine nature even as Jesus partook of the divine nature.
Let me explain it from the Hebrew. Remember their reasoning centers in concrete and organic object lessons. The Hebrew pictogram for Elohiym is the ox head representing strength and the staff representing shepherding and also the yoke. Two oxen were yoked together to accomplish the work in the field. The stronger and more experienced ox would be yoked with a younger, weaker, less experienced ox for the purpose of teaching and guiding and developing strength. This is how they viewed God. He was the more experianced ox who would yoke with them to teach, guide and build their strength. This ties directly to the scripture wherein Jesus says take my yoke upon you for m
y burden is light. By indicating that his burden was light, he is saying that he performed the actions of the younger ox and the primary burden of his tasks was carried by the strength of Elohyim. Jesus worked with Elohyim to do the work of the field. The field in Hebrew means the world. Plowing, planting. harvesting with God in His field. We are to be yoked on the same side as Jesus was and on the other side, our mutual Father. Consider this when looking at these scriptures.

John 10:25?Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father's name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
(Jesus is showing that it is the power of Elohym, the more senior and stronger ox, that is doing the works. Remember also that the term name to the Hebrew mind means character traits. Although John is written in Greek the words spoken by Christ would have been Hebrew. The true meaning of this verse would be something like this.
John 10:25?Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not see that I am yoked with Elohyim the mighty God]. The very works that I do by the power of the senior and stronger ox and in the character of Elohyim bear witness concerning Me that I am yoked with Elohyim and do the works of His field.
Or this one —
John 10:38?But if I do the works of God’s field, even though you do not believe Me or can take action toward following my example , [at least] believe the works you see in the field and take action toward what I am doing. in order that you may know and understand [clearly] that the works you see being done are the result of being yoked as one with Elohyim.

Wj,
Again, give me an example of the pattern that you claim Trinitarians follow that is confusing and unfair or especially unscriptural.

Reply
By making Christ the senior ox in the yoke, He is no longer the pattern to follow. We can never become the senior ox. We can only learn as Christ did by following his example of being yoked with the senior ox.

Wj –
When you can tell me how Yeshua could raise himself from the dead, or how he could give his flesh to eat and his blood to drink and baptize men in the Holy Spirit and be everywhere at the same time, and how a mere man can be the image of the invisible God and the express image of his person/substance, then your claim that he is a mere man without a dual nature as the scriptures teach is a straw.

Response –
If someone takes a picture of you and shows you the image, is that image literally you? An image or a repesentation carries the reflection and authority of the original but is not literally the original.

Wj –
Can any man do the following…

Yeshua raises himself from the dead. Jn 2:19-21?
Yeshua gives his flesh to eat and his blood to drink Jn 6:32-71?
Yeshua created something out of nothing. Jn 1:3,10, Col 1:14-17, Heb 1:10?
Yeshua can be everywhere at the same time. Matt 18:20, Matt 28:20, Jn 14:23?
Yeshua dwells in millions of believers by his Spirit all over the world. Rom 8:9, 2 Cor 13:5?
Will angels worship men? Heb 1:6?
Yeshua bears the burdens of all of humanity. Matt 11:28-30?
Yeshua has “All Power” in heaven and earth. Matt 28:18, Heb 1:3?
Yeshua holds everything together, by him all things consist. Col 1:17, Heb 1:3?
Yeshua was perfect and without sin. Jn 8:46, Jn 14:30, Heb 4:15?
Yeshua fills all things. Eph 1:23, 4:10, ??This is only a few things that Christ did or does that mere men will never do or be. ??Will you ever be “Omnipresent” or “Omnipotent” or “Omniscient”???You may say that some of those things were after his resurrection which is true, but are you serving a pre-resurrected Christ in the flesh or a living Christ who now fills all things.??In what way are you following him as a mere man now?

Reply –
Firstly you have already answered much of your question. Many of the things you mention are after his resurrection and he is made mediator between God and man. If God places him as mediator does it seem reasonable that God would give him the means to accomplish that task? Means like all power in heaven and Earth? Like the power to immerse in the breath of God?
You also must take into consideration that Christ had a very specific ministry that only He would do. He is the Messiah. If I were called to be a prophet by God, He would need to give me the ability to give prophecy and the other things a prophet does.
Do any of us know all that is required to fulfill the calling of the Messiah? Certainly more then is required of other ministries and callings. However, it is very clear that to be the Messiah, a prophet, and the perfect example for humanity, He must be completely human.
In order to be made like his brethren in “EVERY” way he must also have only one nature. The dual nature claims that Jesus has two natures. It is a logical impossibility to say that a being with two natures is identical with a being that has one. It is like saying there exist a square circle. No matter how many times a person says it or in what sort of phraseology a person puts it in, it is still a contradiction. It is the same way with the characteristics of these two natures. One nature can be tempted and the other cannot be tempted. These are opposites and cannot exist within one consciousness or personality. If they do then you have what is commonly referred to as multiple personality disorder. The person would become skitzoid and not able to function.

So what is the answer?

I am going to explain that and close this response to your post.

God needs an example for humanity to follow. We need to see how one lives yoked with the senior ox, Elohyim. For this example to be viable, he has to be like us.
God also requires a blood sacrifice to bring us back into relationship with him and back to our rightful position within His Kingdom.
Both require a human to fulfill them.

Enter the Messiah whose mission is to do the above two things.

To show us a perfect example of Humanity yoked with deity, Christ has the fullness of that deity yoked with Him (Col 2:9) the deity does not become human and the human does not become deity.
In the case of Jesus —
Jesus was born sinless (like all of us) He grew in stature and favor before God and man. He was perfected by what He suffered. In every single case where there was a choice to obey his own will or the will of his father (the senior ox), He chose the will of his father. For this reason the work in the field was done correctly and efficiently. They functioned together correctly to accomplish the task set before them. His father was working and he was also working. This perfection of function has another most important side effect. As Jesus was perfected in his faith or action towards God’s will, his character became more and more like Elohyim, his father.

So where does that leave us?
We certainly cannot claim to have surrendered to God’s will at every opportunity. Herein lies the two fold mission of the Messiah.

We have all fallen shot of the position we were to occupy in God’s kingdom. For that a blood sacrifice was done to buy back that position for us.
Jesus as the Messiah is the same Yesterday today and tomorrow. From a Hebrew perspective this means the same in this age, the age to come and as far as we can see in the future. This means that the sins we committed yesterday, the ones we are committing now and the ones we will commit in the future are already forgiven. What we need do is “get over it”. Most Christians never get beyond the elementary things of Christ and live at the foot of the cross. They live in a constant state of remorse and condemnation over their own failures. Our sins have been put as far as the East is from the west, never to be remembered against us by God. The senior ox tries to move on and we set our hoofs in the clay refusing to bud
ge.
So how do we learn to move on? Though our sins are forgiven it does not mean that we will not continue (for a period of time) to reap consequences for our action. We will still reap weeds. However if we want to reap wheat, we must start sowing wheat. We must break the habit patterns of our sinful lives and begin yielding to the wisdom of god for our choices. Like the younger ox, when we feel the older ox turn and the yoke pulls on our necks, yield to it instead of fighting it. THIS TAKES PRACTICE. The wonderful thing about it is that God does not judge you by your forward progress in the field, but by your attitude in the yoke. Are you teachable in the yoke? A stubborn ox would at first be gently prodded. (like Paul kicking against the prods) Continue to be stubborn and the bull might be whipped. Eventually if the young ox will not learn, he is removed from the yoke and butchered.

You ask for a functional difference between my belief that God is in Christ and what you believe that Christ is God.

God’s will is for me to become like Jesus. Taking action toward the will of God has a functional purpose and produces fruit.
Seeing Jesus as completely human builds within me hope that I can actually do the same things he did. (outside of those specific to his calling as Messiah)

Seeing Jesus as dual natured will always leave questions and doubts as to how that dual nature effected Jesus’ ability to do what he did.

God does not leave loop holes. No one is going to stand up in the great judgment and be able to say that they did not become like Christ because Christ had the special advantage of a dual nature.

If the dual nature is true and yet those that believe it contend that Christ had no special advantage due to a dual nature, what is the functional reason for God doing it in this way?

I have never doubted your salvation. I have never accused you of not being saved. I will close this, however, by saying as long as you hold to the beliefs of a Trinity or dual natured Christ, you will never know them to the depth that is possible otherwise.

As to your demands for scriptural proofs. You will never accept my interpretation of scripture nor agree with me to an honest approach to scriptural interpretation. That is precisely why I have chosen to discuss this via functionality and common sense.

[Mr. Steve]

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Hi Steve, What do you make of 1 Jn1 ” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the WORD of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) ”

Nick;

I believe that it confirms John 1:14 which state the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. John also says that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and to deny that is the spirit of the anti-Christ

[NickHassan]

Hi Steve,
I agree.
So Jesus is the Word
He was seen and touched by his brothers.

[Mr. Steve]

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Jesus the Christ, a man no less a man then us nor no greater man then us, but an exact same man as us.

Gene;

Do the scriptures confirm what you propose here? Lets see
First, based upon your belief that Jesus is no different than any of us, are there any indications in scripture that Jesus is the same in every way as us?

Second, Do the scriptures indicate dissimilarites?

He was born of a woman just like us.

He was tempted in all manner just like us.

He lived as a person.

He prayed to God.

He kept God's commandments.

It is true he became like us.

Are there dissimilarities?

He was born of a virgin.

His body was supernaturally conceived by the Holy Spirit.

He is the only man to have seen God.

He's the only man to walk on water.

When he was born into the world the Father said let all the angels worship him.

Through the name of Jesus devils were cast out and divine healings occurred through the apostles and other believers.

The only man to have come down from heaven. He said he was going back to where he was before. So if he did not pre-exist as the Son of God he went back to a non-existent state as being a person.

We have life as believers when we believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

John said he came from above and was above all. The Father gave all things into his hands.

When you consider that no one else in the Bible can make any of these claims, you must either believe that Jesus is substantially different than us, or reject just about everything that was stated about him, other than the fact that he lived as a man.

The gospel of John is all about Jesus stating the truth that he is the Son of God. Jesus preached at length to convey the truth of who he was. It's so amazing how much time the gospel of John is dedicated to trying to show people he was the Son of God.

He denied that he was God. Any doctrine that holds that Christ is God as the Father is God is a denial of the truth that Christ is the Son of God.
Hence, any doctrine that holds that Christ is eternal, rejects what the entire gospel of John was intended for us to believe-that Jesus is the Son of God. Any doctrine that holds that Christ was a mere man, rejects who Jesus said he was. Additionally, any doctrine that holds that Jesus did not pre-exist as the Son of God, rejects what Jesus taught at great length and is a rejection of the gospel.

Steven

[NickHassan]

Hi Steve,
You rightly point to Christ's godly origins.
Did he bring these advantages with him when he was a man?
If he did then he was not a man but some other being that we cannot follow.
I think a closer perusal of scripture would show that he came with no advantages and all the works you point to are the works of God within his vessel as he indicated.
Thus we too in him can seek the same blessing of the anointing of God and do to some degree likewise according to our appointed role.
Not a superman but an ordinary ordinary man [Is 53] a man who was empowered from above to show the abilities of his God.

[Mr. Steve]

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Hi Steve, I agree. So Jesus is the Word He was seen and touched by his brothers.

Hi Nick;

Jesus prayed to the Father, sanctify them by thy truth, thy Word is truth. He also said the seed is the word of God. Peter said we are born of this seed, too. The Word is the power of God, by which Christ himself was begotten before the world began.

Jesus is the fullness of the word in the flesh. He gave a parable about a woman who took leaven and hid it in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened. What God did in Christ he desires to do in us. He said this is the Kingdom of God. Whenever Jesus said the Kingdom of God is likened unto…, he gives us a principle for us to understand how God works.

Ezekiel said that God would take out our hearts of stone and put in an heart of flesh. God's desire is for the Word to become flesh in us, too.

Jesus was the firstborn, among many to come. Romans 8:29

Steven

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