The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

hi Steve,
The Word is rather the WORD of God, the teaching of God.
He ascribed all his powers to God and God was fully manifest in him as His Spirit.
That Spirit in Christ, called the Spirit of Christ, is now available to be poured also into his body making all one in him, in God.

February 9, 2008 at 2:33 pm#107500

Participant

clarity,
Perhaps I can hep you with this —
Yeshua fills all things. Eph 1:23, 4:10

I’m not sure what’s meant with this, but I will look in to this when I’ve more time, because i'm running out of time atm. 😉

It is actually very simple. If one looks at the context of both of thee passages, it is about Christ's headship over the church and the giving gifts to men for the purpose of completing his church.. The contxt of 4:10 is very clear.

February 9, 2008 at 5:22 pm#107501

Participant

Several times Phil 2 has been mentioned and then built upon to prove that Christ lowered himself from deity to become a man. This does not hold up in the context of scripture. It is often used to prove that Jesus is God. They read the scripture with a preconceived idea that Christ is God and read it into the scripture.
This portion of scripture is not about a supposed Godhead at all. It is simply a comparison between the first and the second Adam. First look at what happened with the first Adam.
Allow me to set the stage for understanding the fall.
Gen 1, God creates man in His image and likeness and gives man dominion and authority to rule over the Earth.
At the end of the sixth day God finishes His creating process and says it is “good”. The literal meaning of “good” is functional. God created a functional world in which everything worked properly including man. There was no dysfunction in this world. Adam knew no dysfunction.
Gen 3
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

A literal Mechanical translation of verse 5 is this –

Given that “Elohiym [Powers] is knowing that in the day you eat from him then your eyes will be opened up and you will exist like Elohiym [Powers] knowing function and dysfunction

God knows what function and dysfunction is. Knowing function (good) and dysfunction (evil) in some way makes you like God.
The temptation of Satan was for Adam and eve to equate themselves with God by knowing function AND DYSFUNCTION. This was the fall. Man took God off the thrown and replaced God with themselves. Adam used his free will and position as a son of God to meet his own needs. Adam had dominion over the Earth and everything in it. He used that dominion to serve himself and look out for his own personal interest. The fall resulted in Adam losing that position of dominion.

Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form” with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearance”.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus was a son of God. Created in the image (outward appearance) of God. Because Jesus never sought to meet his own needs, but always trusted God, He never lost His position of dominion over the Earth. He did not use his freedom to supply His own needs or desires. Not even his legitimate needs. Example – In the desert he was starving and had the power to turn the stones into bread. This was a legitimate need yet he would not go beyond God’s will. At other times (when it was God’s will) he did exercise dominion over God’s creation. When He was to enter the temple to preach, Peter pointed out that they had no Temple tax. Jesus told him to catch a fish and in that fishes mouth would be a coin for the tax. Jesus used the authority that God gave him to have dominion.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
18You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.

Adam equated himself equal with God. He sought to be equal with God. Jesus did not.
Mankind lost their position in God’s creation and Jesus never having given up his human position of dominion could have lorded over man, but instead became a servant to them. Jesus is a king and ruler over God’s creation because He never gave up that position.
The king of Israel washes the feet of His followers and serves his nation.

February 9, 2008 at 5:50 pm#107502

Participant

Hi Martian,
You said
“Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form” with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearance”.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

God is not like to men according to the outward appearances.
God is invisible and not a man and does not have a body from the dust.
So Christ was not like to God here according to visible outward appearances.
The likeness of men to God is as the inner man from the breath of God.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Galatians 2:6
As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.

So when Christ was alike to God was as the Monogenes son who was sent into the world, a world when men were ruled by Satan, their god. He was the single grain that died so that the life given him at the Jordan could be manifested at his resurrection and we can follow him into his death and resurrection.

February 9, 2008 at 6:20 pm#107503

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2008,04:50)

Galatians 2:6
As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.

Sorry you are wrong.
Monogenes simply means unique. He was unique because He was the only “bepotten” son of God. The only one born and not a product of the created Adam.
You asume a preexistance for Christ too, which is also wrong.

Three Jesus is the exact representation of the image of God. Adam is created in the image of God. the same

February 9, 2008 at 6:44 pm#107504

seek and you will find

Participant

Quote (martian @ Feb. 10 2008,05:20)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2008,04:50)

Galatians 2:6
As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.

Three Jesus is the exact representation of the image of God. Adam is created in the image of God. the same

wrong, wrong wrong. Jesus is and was always more then a mere man. He preexisted before the world began.
Col. 1:15-18 and Rev. 3:14 He was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead. So He has preeminence in all.
He gave up the glory He had with the Father, in order to become a man and died for us.
John 17:5 And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Do you belief your own words or do you believe what Jesus said? I belief what Jesus said. Amen

Peace and Love Mrs.

February 9, 2008 at 6:45 pm#107505

Participant

Hi Martian,
You would define Monogenes for us without showing how you reach these conclusions from scripture?
Your dogmatism lacks substance.
I will bring up the thread.

February 9, 2008 at 8:38 pm#107506

Participant

Quote

Hi Steve,
You rightly point to Christ's godly origins.
Did he bring these advantages with him when he was a man?
If he did then he was not a man but some other being that we cannot follow.
I think a closer perusal of scripture would show that he came with no advantages and all the works you point to are the works of God within his vessel as he indicated.

Jesus had divine protection from the time of his virgin birth until he ascended back to heaven. At his birth, the heavenly host appeared, the wise men came and brought gifts. At that juncture, Joseph and Mary had the resources to support themselves. Divinely directed to go to Egypt to avoid being killed by Herod. Divinely directed to return to Israel after the death of Herod. He was personally equipped with knowledge at the age of 12 that was far beyond his years. He participated with his Father and made the world and all things therein. He didn't forget that because he must have told his disciples since it is written in the word.

He is the only person to have claimed to have personally seen God and to know him and to be sent down from heaven by the divine directive of his Father. Without dispute Jesus had an advantage because God gave his spirit to him without measure.

Knowledge is power, we perish without it. Jesus knew the history of the whole world. He knew the Father. He knew precisely how to please God. He was exalted because he pleased the Father in all things.

When he became a man and took on the seed of Abraham, all indications show that he did not lose his knowledge. That's a substantial advantage over any other human.

He became subject to being a man and pleasing God in the flesh.

The good news is that if we are faithful stewards Jesus says that we will be made ruler over all his goods. So the key is faithfulness to God in performing our duty to serve him. Jesus taught that faithfulness in serving God and performing duties is the path to greatness in God. We start by becoming to him as a child and being a servant, making ourselves of no reputation.

Steven

February 9, 2008 at 8:51 pm#107507

Participant

Hi Steven,
Christ, the Son of God, was an anointed prophet, in fact the prophet spoken of by Moses as Peter pointed out in Acts 3.

Did the Father choose and guide the other prophets from the time of the womb?
Jeremiah said so.

Jer 1
4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

6Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

7But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

8Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

9Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.

10See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

Did Jesus have any spiritual knowledge of his origins shown before his anointing at the Jordan?
He did know his true Father but did that cause him to have an easier life or does Heb 12 apply to him too?

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

February 9, 2008 at 9:17 pm#107508

Participant

Quote

Nick;

You are arguing he had no knowledge of his origin before Jordan, based on what scripture? When he was twelve he knew more than the doctors of the law. They were astounded at him age twelve.

I never said that Christ had an easy life, I said he had an advantage over us. He had to have an advantage over us otherwise he would have been a sinner like unto us and would not have been able to perform the task given to him by the commandment of the Father.

The Jordan river where he was baptized was where Christ received an annointing by the Holy Spirit to perform the ministry. He hath annointed thee to ….

From the time of a child he grew in stature and wisdom in the sight of God and man.

Steven

February 9, 2008 at 9:41 pm#107509

Participant

Hi Steve,
His father guided his every step towards righteousness including feeding on Scripture.
God was with him[Acts 10.38]

February 9, 2008 at 9:46 pm#107510

942767

Participant

Hi Steve:

You say:

Quote

If he had an advantage over us, then what he did in overcoming sin is not valid. No, he was a man just like us with no advantage. He did know that God was his Father, and he was raised by parents who were under the Law of Moses. We of the nations were not brought up under the Law, but we know that those under the Law were not able to obey the Law without making mistakes. We who are born again Christians now know that God is our Father, but though we are striving to obey His Word we still make mistakes.

Quote

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot * be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted (5772) like as we are, yet without sin.

Quote

Hebrews 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
5:6
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
5:7
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and * * supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

February 9, 2008 at 9:51 pm#107511

Participant

Hi Steve,
The gnostic heresy promoted by the Whore as trinity, derives it's foundation from the presentation of Christ, not as a man, but as God or a superman. We need to abhor such dangerous falsehoods and know that Christ was just a man, of unusual origins, specially chosen and guided but that he is our Lord and the captain of our salvation, one we can folllow into rebirth by water and the Spirit.

February 10, 2008 at 2:50 pm#107512

Participant

Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 10 2008,05:44)

Quote (martian @ Feb. 10 2008,05:20)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2008,04:50)

Galatians 2:6
As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.

Three Jesus is the exact representation of the image of God. Adam is created in the image of God. the same

Peace and Love Mrs.

Wrong again!
If Jesus is anything other then simply human then everyting He did by way of example is not valid. Even if you assume preexistance (a big leap) you cannot allow that preexistance to give Jesus any advantage over the rest of humanity or you make his example not valid.

February 10, 2008 at 6:29 pm#107513

Participant

Quite so Martian.

February 11, 2008 at 6:11 pm#107514

Participant

Quote

If Jesus is anything other then simply human then everyting He did by way of example is not valid. Even if you assume preexistance (a big leap) you cannot allow that preexistance to give Jesus any advantage over the rest of humanity or you make his example not valid.

Upon what scriptures do you make this claim?

February 11, 2008 at 6:33 pm#107515

Participant

Hi Steve,

A man like us, tempted in every way and enabled to do amazing things, not because of his origins but because of his anointing by God. We follow him.
Hebrews 2:18
Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Acts 2
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

February 11, 2008 at 7:03 pm#107516

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 12 2008,05:11)

Quote

Upon what scriptures do you make this claim?

Paul Speaking in Acts 20 –
20how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house,

Paul again speaking to Timothy.
2 Timothy 3:16?All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Don't need much scripture. Scripture is not the standard. Scripture and teaching/doctrine from scripture should give an increase. They should produce fruit. What is the fruit that is to be produced from the Earth? Men and women trained in righteousness becoming like Christ.
Jesus Christ is the standard. Becoming like Christ is the plan. Working within the plan of God is the first and foremost standard by which any teaching needs be judged.
I can prove though scripture (through dishonest means) that God is a three man spaceship and Christ was a vistor from that ship. So what!
Secondly – since no one on here has agreed on a system for interpretation scripture, it is all simple opinion.

If your understanding of the nature of Christ gives him any advantage, over us, in that which he accomplished, then all reference to him being an example for us is made invalid.

Jesus broke the trail of righteousness for us. He is the door. He is the second Adam. The first one of many God started out to create.
He is our example and for him to be our example in what He did. He must start out as we do. Human from conception forward.

If I say I am giving you an example of what I want you to become and place in front of you a frog, would it seem fair, or even possible to you? No matter what I place in front of you, if the basic nature of that thing is different then you and you cannot change your nature to match it, you will fail because it is not possible.
God placed Jesus in front of us. He commands us to become like Him. If Jesus is basically different then us then we cannot do it and God asks us to do an impossible thing.

To whatever degree you make Jesus different then us, to that same degree you can never be like Him.

February 11, 2008 at 7:23 pm#107517