The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 01 2008,11:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 31 2008,16:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,09:11)

Hi WJ,
Certainly the monogenes Son is amazing.
But he never was his own Father.

True!

And God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is where your theory comes unstuck WJ.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

Romans 15:6
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Three scriptures should be enough to convince you WJ, but I have given you ten.

Let's see if you reject these 10 scriptures.

I am pretty sure that you will given your track record here, but I am sure that others will get some benefit from reading these scriptures.

I am looking, but do not see anything in those scriptures that says Yeshua is not the Word/God.

However I do see he was a man, the Word/God come in the flesh.

You give me ten scriptures that do not say “Jesus is not God”, I give you one scripture that says he is…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I could give more but you hav'nt even got passed that one yet.

And you havnt made a good case that there is more than one God.

February 1, 2008 at 1:08 am#107461

Proclaimer

Participant

The Word has nothing to do with these scriptures WJ.

But God is clearly not Jesus in any of these 10 scriptures and of course I could give you hundreds more.

So exactly as I said, you ignore these 10 scriptures.

Ignorance is not bliss. People can perish because of ignorance WJ. And stubbornly ignoring truth is even more perilous.

Jesus came from God.
The son came from the Father.
The Word was with God.
Jesus is at the right hand of God.
Your doctrine subtly denies all this.
So your doctrine of the Trinity is false.
That makes you a false teacher, even if you are not aware of it.
God hands people over to their delusions. Did you know that?
So you may be genuine about this belief, but being genuine is not enough because you can be genuinely deceived.

February 1, 2008 at 5:10 pm#107462

Participant

One of the guiding principles of Bible interpretation is usually ignored because it often brings additional controversy. This principle is the purpose of God. God is not in the practice of giving information for the purpose of intellectual debate. Everything that God says and does furthers His plan for His creation. The controversy comes from the variance in beliefs concerning God’s plan. Simply put, God created man as a temple in which He could dwell. God desires to live vicariously through man. At the same time God’s desire was not to build robots, but free willed people that would voluntarily share their lives with Him. He desired children that would learn His wisdom in how to live within the universe that He created for them. This universe did not only include what we know as the material realm but the entire kingdom, physical and spiritual. God’s want a people with which He can be one.

In clear terms God desires to duplicate His character in His children. Within that character are God’s motives, intentions and heart. After the fall, man still had some understanding of God because Cain and Able made sacrifices to God, but as time went on those understandings grew less and less. From Abraham to Jesus God worked with man to teach them of his character. From the sacrifices to the Temple of Solomon, God continued to point to a day when He would have the children which He sought to have in the beginning.

None of God’s teachings through the Temple, the prophets, the torah, kings and miracles had brought about the completion of even one of God’s children. What was established was a plan for a Messiah that would lead by example the way to God and His kingdom.

What was needed was an example for man to see. Because the human family was already established, when the time was full God brought forth another Adam. Born to a woman and under the law, this Adam was the fulfillment of God’s original plan.

Enter Jesus….. Did Jesus have an advantage because of his supernatural birth? Who knows? It is not clear how God brought about this conception, however, we do know that for him to really be an example for us, the end result had to be completely human and his capabilities and accomplishments all within the grasp of other men. (personally I believe that God created a human sperm to plant in Mary’s womb)
Little is known about Christ’s childhood, except that at 12 he astounded the teachers with his wisdom. One could conclude that Jesus was supernaturally being taught by his father, God.
At 30 years old Christ was tested and perfected enough to start his ministry. This ministry was two fold.
1.To represent the heart, character, motives and intentions of his father, and to show what that character is like developed and perfected in a human being.
2.To be a blood sacrifice and buy back the rightfull position, of man, given away by Adam. To be a doorway by which we could complete our heritage as sons of God.

Hebrews 1:3?And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Because Jesus perfectly represented the character of God, he could say to Peter “When you see me you see the Father”. Everything that Christ did and is still doing represents the perfected humanity God began to create with Adam. He fully represented the character of God. When ask what is the greatest commandment, he replied with the motives of God. Love God with your whole being and love your brethren as you love yourself. (paraphrased) For this reason when those that had eyes to see, saw Jesus, they saw God in the human being Jesus. As Thomas said “My Lord and My God.”

From the end of Christ’s ministry until the present, men have gone away from the simple gospel to convoluted philosophies. These concepts have at their root a disdain for humanity and a misunderstanding of the position man was to have in God’s economy. Doctrines that separate man from the plan God intended for him. By augmenting Christ’s humanity with doctrines of dual nature, 100% man and 100% God or making Christ completely deity, they invalidate his example to us and close the door for us to follow in his footsteps. Many of these doctrines stem from Greek philosophies of Gnosticism and Dualism. They teach that nothing good could ever come from humanity and therefore Christ, being good, could not be human. They cannot see all men as children of God through Adam. They do not understand that men can have great variance of obedience from the most outrageous examples of rebellion against God to the perfect example of obedience in Jesus. From men that act by carnal animal instincts to men that act in accordance with God’s wisdom.

The testimony of scripture is not a philosophical debate subject but a description of the plan of God and his dealings with man to bring about that plan. Unfortunately many Christians, even with good intentions, get tied up in the minute details of the testimony of scripture and never think in terms of the plan. They are so side tracked with the pride of their debating skills and trying to prove their bent, that they never ask if their conclusions promote or detract from God’s plan. They become so tied up in the subtle nuances of Greek and Hebrew, they do not even consider the plan in their conclusions.

Such is the case with scriptures like found in John Chapter 1.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day. For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will (Psalm 33:6; 107:20; 119:89; 147:15-18). In the same way you could look at the Logos as the blueprint and Jesus as the completed building. So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the fulfillment of the “Word,” (blueprint) John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation and the realization of His plan. Jesus is the outward expression and representation of the character of God and therefore the completion of His plan.
In the Greek worldview, the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material universe. Therefore, for his Greek readers the use of the term Logos would have likely brought forth the idea of a mediator between God and the people of the world.? A doorway though which they could see and approach God.

The logos is God because it represents the character of God. It represents the plan, motives an intentions of God. It is the blueprint of what God started out to build.
Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s plan/blueprint. He perfectly represents the character, motives and intentions of God. He is perfected humanity and the second and completed Adam.

February 1, 2008 at 5:41 pm#107463

Participant

Hi Martian,
A good presentation.
However again you seem to downplay the result of the anointing of Jesus.
You make it sound as though it was by his own efforts aided by God he became like to God.
Certainly his Father was ever with him and teaching and disciplining him and keeping him free of sin.

I agree with all you say except that he was the anointed one, the Christ.
He was a temple filled utterly with the Spirit of God who manifested the nature and powers of God.
It was by his rebirth of water and the Spirit at the Jordan that he was filled and transformed in this way.

We do not become like to him just by imitation.
Humanity is not excelled in Christ but God is manifested in men.
We follow him through rebirth by water and the Spirit into his death and resurrection.

February 1, 2008 at 5:47 pm#107464

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2008,04:41)

We do not become like to him just by imitation.
Humanity is not excelled in Christ but God is manifested in men.
We follow him through rebirth by water and the Spirit into his death and resurrection.

There was no intention to down play the anointing of Christ. I just did not want to write book with every detail.
My point was to show the over all plan of God and to show Jesus as the perfect example of that plan.
Certainly the fact that Jesus was anointed by God is true even as that self same Spirit is in us for the purposes of anointing us.

February 1, 2008 at 5:49 pm#107465

Participant

Thanks martian

February 1, 2008 at 11:18 pm#107466

Mr. Steve

Participant

Quote

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 01 2008,11:20)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 31 2008,16:01)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,09:11)
Hi WJ,
Certainly the monogenes Son is amazing.
But he never was his own Father.

True!

And God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is where your theory comes unstuck WJ.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

Romans 15:6
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Three scriptures should be enough to convince you WJ, but I have given you ten.

Let's see if you reject these 10 scriptures.

I am pretty sure that you will given your track record here, but I am sure that others will get some benefit from reading these scriptures.

I am looking, but do not see anything in those scriptures that says Yeshua is not the Word/God.

However I do see he was a man, the Word/God come in the flesh.

You give me ten scriptures that do not say “Jesus is not God”, I give you one scripture that says he is…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I could give more but you hav'nt even got passed that one yet.

And you havnt made a good case that there is more than one God.

WJ;

Where in John 1:1 do you read the titles or names “Father” and “Son”? What you have done is based your conclusion that Christ is somehow eternally in and with God the Father based upon a scripture that doesn't express facts to support that conclusion.

We know that Christ was with God in the beginning with God as the Son of God, but that is a conclusion that is supported from the rest of John, and only reasonably inferred from John 1:1.

If you want to understand who Christ is and what is the nature of the relationship between the Son and the Father, the remainder of the book of John is necessary.

Let's keep the cards on the table WJ, you do not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God prior to his virgin birth. Hence, you do not believe that Jesus existed prior to his virgin birth. So how can you conclude that Jesus is God.

The only other option is to believe that God the Father was manifest in the flesh, which is true because he was is Christ, but God did not come to us himself as the Lord God Almighty from the Old Testament. Jesus referred to his Father and said his Father was the God of Abraham, who sent him.

Jesus said he existed before Abraham, so he existed prior as the Son of God, but not God.

You still have not answered my longtime question to you- How can you be a trinitarian and not believe that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God.

To conclude that Christ is God without clarifying the nature and relationship of the Father and the Son is misrepresenting what Christ taught and all the apostles.

We are called as believers to be workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Someone should do a count in the gospels of how many times that Jesus spoke of “God” and never implied that he was God himself or included himself as the one true God. There must be hundreds of such scriptures, but you choose the few scriptures from which you draw conclusions from scriptures that scarcely support what you want to believe.

Worse yet, you ignore the hundreds of other scriptures where Christ speaks of God and does not include himself. Is that rightly dividing the word of truth?

Steven

February 2, 2008 at 1:11 am#107467

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 01 2008,12:08)

The Word has nothing to do with these scriptures WJ.

But God is clearly not Jesus in any of these 10 scriptures and of course I could give you hundreds more.

So exactly as I said, you ignore these 10 scriptures.

Ignorance is not bliss. People can perish because of ignorance WJ. And stubbornly ignoring truth is even more perilous.

Jesus came from God.

The son came from the Father.

The Word was with God.

Jesus is at the right hand of God.

Your doctrine subtly denies all this.
So your doctrine of the Trinity is false.

That makes you a false teacher, even if you are not aware of it.

God hands people over to their delusions. Did you know that?

So you may be genuine about this belief, but being genuine is not enough because you can be genuinely deceived.

The use of words like “Ignorance”, stubbornly, deceived, delusions, false teacher, apparently are words that apply to anyone who does not agree with “your brand of truth”.

What you fail to see is while you throw those words at me, that you also have not changed anything you have believed since I have been here. Look in the mirror for these words may also apply to you.

I have scriptures to support my belief and you have scritpures that support your belief.

Your patronizing and condescension is not a fruit of the Spirit even though you may think it is. You are not a prophet over me nor do you know my heart and relationship with God. What makes you think I am proud for not agreeing with you when you also could be proud for not agreeing with me.

I usually dont accept much of what Tow and Stu say but couldnt help but notice the following statements which shows that even unbelievers can detect when something is not fruit.

Quote (Towshab @ Feb. 01 2008,11:24)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 31 2008,16:40)

acertainchap, the point was that Piltdown Man was a fraud that lasted for decades and this shows how easily people even in the scientific community can be deceived. Makes you wonder at the things that people believe today.

I'm sorry, I just could not let this one go.

Can anyone not see the total irony in the above quoted statement?

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 01 2008,21:53)

Hi t8

‘Almost more dangerous than atheism’. What is the actually danger of simply not believing as you do? Do you feel threatened by it? Is it the patently absurd idea widely expressed here that everything that does not agree with your interpretation is ‘evil’?

As far as your comments…

“Jesus came from God”. Yes, Jesus came from the Father who was in heaven.

“The son came from the Father”. Maybe you can show me a scripture where Jesus was a son before he was born a son.

“The Word was with God”. You left out part of the verse.

“in the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

“Jesus is at the right hand of God”. Yes Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, not above him nor beneath him nor “in” his hand, but at his right hand.

Again, there are scriptures that clearly say “Jesus is God”, yet I read of none of the Apostles or even the early church Fathers warning believers against the teaching Jesus is God.

I am not aware of any early folowers of Yeshua ever saying “Jesus is not God”.

I am quite sure you would like this t8 but it is not found in scripture but the trinity is, like it or not. The Trinitarian view is here to stay for you cannot destroy the truth.

I would give you all the scriptures but you probably wouldnt accept them just like the many that has come here and tried to show you the same.

At any rate I will let God be the judge of your heart and motives.

Blessings.

February 2, 2008 at 1:19 am#107468

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 02 2008,10:18)

Quote

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 01 2008,11:20)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 31 2008,16:01)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 31 2008,09:11)
Hi WJ,
Certainly the monogenes Son is amazing.
But he never was his own Father.

True!

And God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is where your theory comes unstuck WJ.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

Romans 15:6
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Three scriptures should be enough to convince you WJ, but I have given you ten.

Let's see if you reject these 10 scriptures.

I am pretty sure that you will given your track record here, but I am sure that others will get some benefit from reading these scriptures.

I am looking, but do not see anything in those scriptures that says Yeshua is not the Word/God.

However I do see he was a man, the Word/God come in the flesh.

You give me ten scriptures that do not say “Jesus is not God”, I give you one scripture that says he is…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I could give more but you hav'nt even got passed that one yet.

And you havnt made a good case that there is more than one God.

WJ;

We know that Christ was with God in the beginning with God as the Son of God, but that is a conclusion that is supported from the rest of John, and only reasonably inferred from John 1:1.

If you want to understand who Christ is and what is the nature of the relationship between the Son and the Father, the remainder of the book of John is necessary.

Jesus said he existed before Abraham, so he existed prior as the Son of God, but not God.

You still have not answered my longtime question to you- How can you be a trinitarian and not believe that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God.

To conclude that Christ is God without clarifying the nature and relationship of the Father and the Son is misrepresenting what Christ taught and all the apostles.

Worse yet, you ignore the hundreds of other scriptures where Christ speaks of God and does not include himself. Is that rightly dividing the word of truth?

Steven

mr steve

I have already done this dance before with you. I have made over 4000 post on this sight expressing my belief.

The last 20 on this thread should show you quite a bit.

So unless you can come up with a new dance other than what you posted here I will not go there.

Sorry. You have the right to your belief and I wish you the best.

Its simply your opinion that I ignore scriptures.

Blessings.

February 2, 2008 at 1:22 am#107469

Participant

Hi WJ,
You say
“The Trinitarian view is here to stay for you cannot destroy the truth.”
So where is this truth written in scripture?
Or are you an oracle?

February 2, 2008 at 1:34 am#107470

Participant

Hi WJ,
Trinity God is not a teaching of the bible.
So it is not a teaching from the mouth of God.
So why have you parroted the teachings of men for 4000 posts?

February 2, 2008 at 4:02 pm#107471

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2008,12:22)

Hi WJ,
You say
“The Trinitarian view is here to stay for you cannot destroy the truth.”
So where is this truth written in scripture?
Or are you an oracle?

Nick, It does not matter how much proof you place before WJ. If he decides the world is flat that is all there is to it. No changing his mind.

February 2, 2008 at 6:51 pm#107472

Mr. Steve

Participant

Quote

Misrepresentation! Untrue! The Father did not come in the Flesh! However, if the Father wanted to he could have, but the Word/God Yeshua came in the flesh.

WJ;

Our beliefs should be based upon what Jesus said, not what he didn't say. You are now arguing that just because Jesus didn't make a claim that doesn't mean that it is not true. This was in one of your prior 20 posts.

You and I have posted each other many times. From what I can gather from your posts, you believe the following based upon John 1:1:

1) That Christ was the Word prior to his birth on earth,

2) That the Word was God,

3) That Christ was not the Son of God prior to coming to earth.

Are any of these statements inconsistent with your beliefs?

Based on the beliefs above, lets look at each one and see if Jesus confirmed these beliefs.

Where did Jesus say he was the Word prior to his birth as a man?

Where did he say he was not the Son of God prior to coming to earth?

Where did he say he was God prior to coming to earth? This belief espouses that God became the Son of God when he came to earth.

So where did Jesus say he was God prior and became the Son of God by the Holy Spirit in Mary?

By the way, I've never asked you to dance, nor will I.

By your own admission of over 4000 posts, you should be able to answer the above questions. We have tried to answer your questions.

Steven

February 2, 2008 at 7:18 pm#107473

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 03 2008,05:51)

Quote

Misrepresentation! Untrue! The Father did not come in the Flesh! However, if the Father wanted to he could have, but the Word/God Yeshua came in the flesh.

WJ;

You and I have posted each other many times. From what I can gather from your posts, you believe the following based upon John 1:1:

1) That Christ was the Word prior to his birth on earth,

2) That the Word was God,

3) That Christ was not the Son of God prior to coming to earth.

Are any of these statements inconsistent with your beliefs?

Based on the beliefs above, lets look at each one and see if Jesus confirmed these beliefs.

Where did Jesus say he was the Word prior to his birth as a man?

Where did he say he was not the Son of God prior to coming to earth?

Where did he say he was God prior to coming to earth? This belief espouses that God became the Son of God when he came to earth.

So where did Jesus say he was God prior and became the Son of God by the Holy Spirit in Mary?

By the way, I've never asked you to dance, nor will I.

By your own admission of over 4000 posts, you should be able to answer the above questions. We have tried to answer your questions.

Steven

mr steve

Good! I am glad you dont want to dance with me.

Read this and learn who the Word is in John 1:1.

Blessings!

February 2, 2008 at 10:14 pm#107474

Participant

Hi WJ,
You say
“I am not aware of any early folowers of Yeshua ever saying “Jesus is not God”.”

We dio not draw truth from inference or what is not said but from what is written.

You also say
“I am quite sure you would like this t8 but it is not found in scripture but the trinity is, like it or not.”

Where is this strange new trinity God taught in scripture?

February 3, 2008 at 7:21 pm#107475

Participant

WJ,
I have a couple of questions for you.
How do you define “faith”?
What fruit does the doctrine of the Trinity produce and how is that fruit produced?

February 3, 2008 at 10:06 pm#107476

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To all…….> Faith is the substence of thens Hoped for, the (evidence ) of things not seen. Who Here has evey seen God, while we can all read what others say, that can never give us Faith. True Faith is the product of a (Personnel) One on One relationship with God. Anything else is just a supposition and many call that faith, but thats not true faith, because true Faith requires a true relationship with God Himself. Faith cannot be transfered from person to person, Jesus' faith cannot be your faith, nor anyone named or talked about in the bible can give you faith, you must recieve it from God Himself, one on one, everything else is just supposition.

IMO……..gene

February 3, 2008 at 11:48 pm#107477

Proclaimer

Participant

Jesus said that the Father was his God and our God.

I believe what Jesus said.

Others have chosen to not believe what he said.

This is why some will not be swayed by the Trinity Doctrine, because to do so is to depart from Jesus own words.

So trying to get men to follow after other men and away from God's son is fruitless, yet it is prophesied that some would do this:

Acts 20:29-30
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

We should be pointing men to the truth and not to ourselves or our own distorted truths.

February 4, 2008 at 2:20 pm#107208

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2008,09:06)

IMO……..gene

Those are all true but it does not answer my question. How does one exercise their faith?

February 4, 2008 at 2:54 pm#107209