The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
James would disagree.
Sin comes from within via lust.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Man's trinity theory is the subject that should be debated here.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2008,04:46)

Hi, Man's trinity theory is the subject that should be debated here.

Is this a debate?
It has nearly as many pages as does my complete Old Testament.

Tim

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2008,04:45)

Hi Gene, James would disagree. Sin comes from within via lust.

Nick…….> John said (all) thats in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes , and the pride of life (are from the world). We become infected when we intered the world we were not born sinners. If we are going to continue this descussion we need to move it to a new topic. Like are born sinners.

[kejonn]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 24 2008,11:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2008,04:46) Hi, Man's trinity theory is the subject that should be debated here. Is this a debate? It has nearly as many pages as does my complete Old Testament. Tim

The OT is more coherent however.

[martian]

Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 25 2008,07:29)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 24 2008,11:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2008,04:46) Hi, Man's trinity theory is the subject that should be debated here. Is this a debate? It has nearly as many pages as does my complete Old Testament. Tim The OT is more coherent however.

Coherent is not a requirement. LOL

[martian]

And then there is the one about the Rabbi, the monkey and the topless bar………. Oh never mind wrong forum. LOL

[TimothyVI]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 25 2008,08:45)

And then there is the one about the Rabbi, the monkey and the topless bar……….  Oh never mind wrong forum.    LOL

Yes, that probably belongs in the evolution thread.

Tim

[Sevena]

John 1:1
In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.

NWT of the Holy Scriptures

Sorry

Sevena

[david]

On the NWT and John 1:1:

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/john1files.htm

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

Here Ill use your litterall translation… John 1:3 panta di autou egeneto kai chwris autou ALL (THINGS) THROUGH HIM CAME TO BE, AND APART FROM HIM 3956 1223 0846_3 1096 2532 5565 0846_3 egeneto oude hen CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING). 1096 3761 1520 ho gegonen WHICH HAS COME TO BE 3739 1096 Notice the… AND APART FROM HIM 3956 1223 0846_3 1096 2532 5565 0846_3 egeneto oude hen CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING). 1096 3761 1520 ho gegonen WHICH HAS COME TO BE 3739 1096 So how do you get just man or dirt from that?

Quote (Ron @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

The above is form the Westcott & Hort Interlinear; my literal rendering, as I gave earlier on page 1004, is: All [Greek, panta, Strong's #3956] came to be through [Greek, di, Strong's #1223] him, and apart from him not [Greek, oude, Strong's #3956] one came to be.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 17 2008,12:25)

Your literal rendering? What happened to Westcott & Hort litteral rendering.

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

WJ said that the Westcott & Hort rendering was my literal rendring, and that was what I responded to; I posted to the effect that the W&H rendering was not ***my*** literal rendering. The W&H never was ***my*** literal rendering.

Yes that is exactly my point. You take “your literal rendering” as you gave on page 1004 and place it above the W&H Interlinear.

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

Nevertheless, absolutely nothing happened to the W&H literal rendering; it is still there, and it is still that of W&H, nor mine.

True it is not yours and you have no authority or credentials to change it.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

Again, are you a greek scholar? What credentials do you have to change the text or translations? Do you understand why they translated John 1:3 the way they did? Do you understand words like case, gender, anarthrous,  parsing, lexical forms, imperfect tense? How does the imperfect tense relate to a prepositional phrase at the start of a verse? Etc. Etc. Etc. Yet you are trying to give us your ‘literal rendering” in opposition to the text and simply reading into John 1:3 your understanding claiming it does not mean what it says!

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

I actually used Jay Green's Interlinear* (Second Edition, c. 1986) as a basis; Green's Interlinear rendering reads: “All things through Him came into being and without Him came into being not even one that came into being.” I only dropped the word “things” and the word “even” that do not actually appear in the Greek text. ======== *Second Edition: http://astore.amazon.com/restorationli-20/detail/1878442821/ Later Edition: http://astore.amazon.com/restorationli-20/detail/1565639774/

Well then now we have two witnesses against you, Greek experts that agree with each other. Look…

W&C
“ALL (THINGS) THROUGH HIM CAME TO BE, AND APART FROM HIM
CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING). WHICH HAS COME TO BE”

Jay Green's Interlinear* (Second Edition, c. 1986)
“All things through Him came into being and without Him came into being not even one that came into being.”

Am I missing something, or does the text truly read “All things through Him came into being”

But you say… “I only dropped the word “things” and the word “even” that do not actually appear in the Greek text”.

Yes you “only dropped the word things” Don’t you think that would have some bearing on the text?

What right or credentials do you have to change the literal translations of the text?

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

I had no purpose of changing the texts or the translations. Jay Green's Literal Translation reads: “All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

“

Are you purposely over looking the first part of the verse?

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

In his literal translation, he adds the word “thing” after “one” and changes the inflection in the last instance from “came into being” to “has come into being”, which does not create any great difference as far as meaning is concerned.

Really? The words “All things came into being” as apposed to “only man came into being through him”, does not change the meaning in a “great way” which is what you are interpreting Jn 1:3 to say?

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

WJ presented nothing specific that he objects to in the rendering I gave.

Yes I did and you were not listening! All the translations on blueletterbible.org and bible gateway.com and here http://bible.cc/john/1-3.htm disagree with your interpretation of the verse. And as I have shown that the W&H and Jay Greens Interlinear disagree with your rendering of the verse.

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

If there is something specific that anyone wishes to present concerning the Greek, then the spe cific case should be presented. Otherwise, I simply view statements such as WJ's above as meaningless and designed to sidetrack the issue.

I have addressed the specifics, and it would seem to me that you attempt to sidetrack the issue by ignoring the scripture and its true interpretation, and by removing important words like “Things” and “Even” out of the translation thereby changing the meaning and apposing hundreds of Greek scholars.

without him *nothing was made* that has been made.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

Look again… without him *nothing was made* that has been made. without him *nothing was made* that has been made. without him *nothing was made* that has been made.

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

Yes, it still says the same thing. I do not deny what it says. Nor do I deny the context as well as the rest of the scriptures that show what is being spoken of.

But if you interpret “without him *nothing was made* that has been made” as being through him only man was made then you have denied the text and the translations.

Some of the translations render the word “dia” as “by” and some of them as “through”.

I say it makes no difference. Here is why. If Jesus is not just a funnel that the Father made all things through then it would mean that he had substance, essence just as the Father. He is Spirit just as the Father. Heb 1:2.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Being that all things are made through him and for him as we see in Col 1:16, then it would make sense that all things are held together by him, even by the word of his power. Heb 1:2

So the Hebrew writer confirms who it is that laid the foundation of the earth.

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:10….

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

For “pas” to mean absolutely everything would have it to include God as well as Jesus. You will have to admit that “pas” is being used in relative to made things as indicated by context, and not absolutely everything in the universe. The context, both before — “in the beginning” (John 1:1) — and after — “the word was made through him” (John 1:9,10), shows that the things made are referring to the things of the world of mankind.

No I do not have to admit anything that you say, for you appose the translations and are simply reading into it.

Of course “all things” does not mean God himself, which is clarified in John 1:1 – 3.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Since Jesus did not make himself, nor is he one of the created or one of the all things, Col 1:16,17, Heb 1:2,10.

Then he is simply the Creator with the Father and the Spirit.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

The above simply shows that what I have been posting has not been studied in detail. I do not say that Jesus created anything at all. I stay by what the scriptures say. It was “through” Jesus that God, whom the Logos was with, created these things. Nor have I ever said that Jesus was not the instrument in the creation of things other than the world of mankind. I do say that John 1:3 is referring only to the things of the world of mankind. Colossians 1:16 shows that God also used the prehuman Jesus in creation of all living things, dominions visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth. Again, while the context shows that Colossians 1:15,16 is referring to intelligent living creatures, I do not say that Jesus was not the instrument in the creating of the land masses, the physical heavens (atmosphere), etc., as described in Genesis 1.

Through Jesus or by Jesus?

So you think that the Father only is the creator yet somehow Yeshua is just an “agent” that he made all things through as “an instrument” as you say?

How would you explain these scriptures?…

Isa 37:16
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (not gods) thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Job 9:8
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

So what makes you think God used a lessor being than himself to create all things?

What does “alone” and “by myself” mean? Do you think John and Paul didn’t know these scriptures when they penned the words claiming Yeshua as Co-Creator with the Father? They surely did, for they understood the nature of the Father and the Son as One in nature.

How about these scriptures that also confirms the presence of the Holy Spirit in creation…

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Yet we know that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Yeshua is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. That is because he is the Word/God, One with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Party 1 wanted to build a house.
Party 1 hires party 2 (contractor) to build the house.
Party 2 builds the house.
Party 1 (The Father) says “I built a house”.

Does this mean that part 2 (Yeshua) or party 3 (Holy Spirit) didnt build the house?

Yeshua was not just an empty shell that the Father created all things through but is the very essence by which all things were made and are upheld.

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

Rightly understood in context, and with the rest of what God has revealed by means of his holy spirit in the scriptures, none of the translations disagree with what I am saying. A reader of the translation, however, who has a preconception, may isolate the verse both from context and the rest of the scriptures in order to support a wrong conclusion. Let me illustrate by quoting Hebrews 2:8 likewise: in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. — World English For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. — New American Standard. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. — American Standard. Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. — English Standard Version. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. — King James Version For in subjecting everything to him, He left nothing not subject to him. — Holman Christian Standard Bible translation. In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. — New International Version for in the subjecting to him the all things, nothing did He leave to him unsubjected. — Young's Literal Translation. For, in subjecting, to him the all things, nothing, left he, to him unsubjected. — Rotherham's Emphasized Bible translation. Yes, most definitely, in isolation, without looking at other scriptures, it would appear that God has subjected absolutely everything in the universe to man. Thus, by such an isolation of the scripture, one could conclude the angels became lower than man, and that the sun, the moon, the stars, the solar systems, the galaxies, etc., are under the control of man. Of course, such is absurd! One *has* consider the rest of the scriptures as well as common evidence. (Psalm 8:5-8) And, likewise, in John 1:3, one must consider not only the context, but also the rest of the revealment through God's spirit. Regardless of the translation, one still has to consider the context as well as the rest of the God's revealment thoughout the scriptures. May God bless. In service of Jesus and his God, Ronald

Heb 2:6
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

That was cute how you just clipped a part of a verse and then proceeded to expound on it with apologetics.

This scripture is prophetic of Yeshua and his
overcoming Church.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So what makes you think God has not put all things in subjection to man? We know that he gave us dominion over the earth and the things in the earth. Scriptures teach that man shall have dominion over all things through Christ.

For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Yet we know according to Heb 1:3 and Matt 28:19 he has all power in Heaven and earth.

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 22:5
And there will no longer be {any} night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Blessings!  

[Proclaimer]

WJ, the Trinity Doctrine is false.

There is no point in promoting falseness.

[seek and you will find]

W.J. I also want to add, that there is only One Holy Spirit and that is the Spirit of God. It is not seperate from the Father. It unites us all with the Father and Jesus Christ. Ephesians 4:4-6 There is One Body and One Spirit, One Lord, One faith,One Baptizm. ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL AND THROUGH US ALL, AND IN US ALL.
B ingo

Peace and Love Mrs.
P.S. When are you going to get it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,00:06)

WJ, the Trinity Doctrine is false. There is no point in promoting falseness.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 26 2008,05:09)

W.J. I also want to add, that there is only One Holy Spirit and that is the Spirit of God. It is not seperate from the Father. It unites us all with the Father and Jesus Christ. Ephesians 4:4-6 There is One Body and One Spirit, One Lord, One faith,One Baptizm. ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL AND THROUGH US ALL, AND IN US ALL. B ingo Peace and Love Mrs. P.S. When are you going to get it?

Mrs

So how many spirits are in you?

The Fathers Spirit, The Spirit of the Son. or the Holy Spirit?

When are you gonna get it?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Are there three Spirits
or is the Spirit divided?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2008,06:33)

Hi WJ, Are there three Spirits or is the Spirit divided?

NH

No! Exactly! So where does that leave you?

When the Spirit speaks to you is it the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit? Can you tell the difference?

One Spirit NH, yet there are three persons!

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Has the Spirit proceeded from God the Father as other person?
Scripture please.

[Son of Light]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2008,07:20)

Hi WJ, Has the Spirit proceeded from God the Father as other person? Scripture please.

God eminated the son.

The son eminated every other member of the pleroma. (the fullness of all spirits)

The source and substance is all the same.

One spirit spread throughout us all.

Christ in you because the spirit inside you came from him and his spirit came from the Father.

The spirit is darkened by the evil of this world.

Let the morningstar rise within your heart and shine brightly.

Being born from above and RECONCILED to God.

[Author]

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