The Trinity Doctrine

[ronday888]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 23 2008,00:02)

The scriptures are not the finale measuring rod.

In reality, one cannot get to know Jesus and his God without a realization of the scriptures as the means by which to know them. Otherwise, we can be misled by a spirit claiming to bring light.

God has revealed his truths by means of his holy spirit through the apostles. God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. — Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10.

Part of the truth revealed by means of the holy spirit was that there was to be an apostasy, a “falling away” from the truth of God's Word, with strong delusions. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3,4) This falling away had already begun in the first century, with some receiving a different spirit and preaching “another Jesus”; the apostasy was restrained for only a short while. (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 John 2:18,19; 2 Corinthians 11:4) The apostasy spread rapidly after the death the apostles and developed into the great “Man of Sin”, or more correctly “Lawless Man”, or “Illegal Man”, a great religious system, which claimed to have the authority to add to God's Word since their revelation was allegedly of God's Spirit. The central doctrine became the false teaching that Jesus had to be God Almighty in order to provide atonement for sins. With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had done with the Old Testament.

Isaiah, in prophesying concerning the stone of stumbling (Isaiah 8:14; Romans 9:23) to both the houses of Israel (Romans 9:6,31; 11:7; 1 Corinthians 10:18; Galatians 6:16), warns us: “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8:20, New King James Version) The “law”, of course, is what we call the Old Testament; the “testimony” of this prophecy is the testimony of the apostles, as given in the New Testament. This the way to test the spirits. (1 John 4:1) It is to these and through these scriptures that the holy spirit today gives true direction, and anything not in agreement with these scriptures is not of the light of the day. (John 11:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) The distortion of who Jesus truly was and is — who while on earth before his death was only human, a little lower than the angels, who gave his flesh for the life of the world — is one of the greatest stumblingblocks to understanding the true Gospel revealed in scripture. Thus Jesus becomes a stumbling stone, not only to the house according the flesh which was corrupted from true doctrine (Israel after the flesh — Luke 13:25-28; Romans 9:30-33), but also the house which claims Jesus, which has also become corrupted from true doctrine through spiritual fornication. — Matthew 27:21-23; Revelation 2:13-15,20-24.

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 23 2008,04:35)

I do believe that Jesus was a normal man as Adam was a normal man, and I do *not* believe that Jesus' orgins were some sort of godman. Jesus was not a man at all until he became flesh; in doing so, he no longer was the divine being, which is why the scripture uses the past tense — was — in John 1:1.

I will add to this that what is “normal” is relative. Man's original “normal” condition was not as a son of disobedience, a child of wrath. (Ephesians 2:2,3) He was not a sinner, falling short of the glory of God, but was crowned with that glory. (Romans 3:23; Psalm 8:5) Man's “normal” condition changed when Adam sinned, bring himself and all of his offspring in a fallen condition, a condition that falls short of the glory of God. — Romans 5:12-19.

When Adam sinned, we all inherited his sin as his descendants. “For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners.” (Romans 5:19, New American Standard Bible) “Because, knowing God, they didn't glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil habits, secret slanderers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with those who practice them.” — Romans 1:21-32, World English Bible

The Greek expression translated “gave up” (Strong's #3860) in the World English translation means “to give over to” or “to turn over to”. Thus because of Adam's sin, mankind was turned over to these evil conditions. While it was not the original nature of mankind to do these thing, it became so. The words (Strong's #5446, 5449) used in Romans 1:26,27 refer to that which is what considered the proper course of a man and woman sexually, when it describes men and women as changing the natural for that which is not proper by nature. Its source has the meaning of “puff” (Strong's #5456) which implies the outcome of a thing. The usage of Romans 1:26,27 indicates that homosexual behavior is not the intended physical use of the human body.

However, as regarding sin, today it could be considered natural and normal, for we read that as believers were once “by nature (Strong's #5449) the children of wrath.” The outgrowth of the condemnation upon man through Adam's sin is the sinful flesh, a subjection to vanity, a bondage of corruption and God's wrath, so that, as an outgrowth of sin, the sinful condition of man could be considered natural, but as an outgrowth of God's original purpose for the human flesh, it is not natural, or normal .

Jesus was not a normal human in the sense of having come into the world under those normal conditions of sin that mankind finds himself in. If he had, he would have been like all the rest of mankind, and could not straighten himself out, much less be the atoning sacrifice for the world. He was a normal human was God originally intended for man to be.

Christian love,
Ronald

[NickHassan]

Hi Rd,
Were the prophets normal men?
If God could keep their vessels suitable for His purpose why not Christ?
Christ was a normal man.

[acertainchap]

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 23 2008,10:49)

I will add to this that what is “normal” is relative. Man's original “normal” condition was not as a son of disobedience, a child of wrath. (Ephesians 2:2,3) He was not a sinner, falling short of the glory of God, but was crowned with that glory. (Romans 3:23; Psalm 8:5) Man's “normal” condition changed when Adam sinned, bring himself and all of his offspring in a fallen condition, a condition that falls short of the glory of God. — Romans 5:12-19. When Adam sinned, we all inherited his sin as his descendants. “For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners.” (Romans 5:19, New American Standard Bible) “Because, knowing God, they didn't glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil habits, secret slanderers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with those who practice them.” — Romans 1:21-32, World English Bible The Greek expression translated “gave up” (Strong's #3860) in the World English translation means “to give over to” or “to turn over to”. Thus because of Adam's sin, mankind was turned over to these evil conditions. While it was not the original nature of mankind to do these thing, it became so. The words (Strong's #5446, 5449) used in Romans 1:26,27 refer to that which is what considered the proper course of a man and woman sexually, when it describes men and women as changing the natural for that which is not proper by nature. Its source has the meaning of “puff” (Strong's #5456) which implies the outcome of a thing. The usage of Romans 1:26,27 indicates that homosexual behavior is not the intended physical use of the human body. However, as regarding sin, today it could be considered natural and normal, for we read that as believers were once “by nature (Strong's #5449) the children of wrath.” The outgrowth of the condemnation upon man through Adam's sin is the sinful flesh, a subjection to vanity, a bondage of corruption and God's wrath, so that, as an outgrowth of sin, the sinful condition of man could be considered natural, but as an outgrowth of God's original purpose for the human flesh, it is not natural, or normal . Jesus was not a normal human in the sense of having come into the world under those normal conditions of sin that mankind finds himself in. If he had, he would have been like all the rest of mankind, and could not straighten himself out, much less be the atoning sacrifice for the world. He was a normal human was God originally intended for man to be. Christian love, Ronald

Rd, you have great incite into Scripture and I for one am glad that you took the time to type all of that to help us out. I agree with all that you said here but was confused with the part in beginning where you talk about man being crowned with 'that glory'. Not sure with what you mean by that statement. Do you mean that man was crowned with the glory of a sinful nature? Or as a child of wrath? Or both?

[ronday888]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,12:38)

None of the things you mention deal with … Phil 2:6-8

Philippians 2:6
hos en morphee theou huparchwn ouch harpagmon
WHO IN FORM OF GOD EXISTING NOT SNATCHING
3739 1722 3444 2316 5224 5225 3756 0725
heegeesato to einai isa thew
HE CONSIDERED THE TO BE EQUAL (THINGS) TO GOD,
2233 3588 1511 2470 2316
Philippians 2:7
alla heauton ekenwsen morpheen doulou labwn en
BUT HIMSELF HE EMPTIED FORM OF SLAVE HAVING TAKEN, IN
0235 1438 2758 3444 1401 2983 1722
homoiwmati anthrwpwn genomenos
LIKENESS OF MEN HAVING BECOME;
3667 0444 1096
Westcott & Hort Interlinear
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/phi2.pdf

Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form [morphee, external appearance*] of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. — Revised Standard Version.

Philippians 2:7 – but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form [morpheen, external appearance*] of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. — New King James Version

*==========================
Strong's Number: 3444

morfhv perhaps from the base of (3313) (through the idea of
adjustment of parts)
Transliterated Word Morphe
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mor-fay' Noun Feminine

Definition
the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
external appearance

—Thayer and Smith. “Greek Lexicon entry for Morphe”.
“The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon”.
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3444.
==========================

The expression “morphee theou” can mean “form of might”, “form of a god”, or “form of God”. For our purposes, we will assume that it actually refers to Jesus as existing in a form of his God.

This scripture is not saying, as many would like to read into it, that Jesus was his God before he came to the earth. Not does it say that he was equal to his God, but rather that equality with his God was something that he NOT was grasping for. Nor was it that Jesus did not grasp for equality with his God because he already had that equality, for why should such a consideration even be mentioned if Jesus was his God? For Paul's words to make any sense, he has to be understood as saying that Jesus was not equal to his God, and that he did not seek to grasp such equality (unlike the one spoken of in Isaiah 14:14).

Jesus was in the form [external appearance] of THEOS, MIGHT/GOD before he came into the world of mankind, in that he had the glory of a heavenly body, a body in likness of, a body similar to, the only true God who sent him into the world. (John 17:1,3,5; 1 Corinthians 15:40) But this does not mean that Jesus was his God.

Nor does this scripture say that Jesus *became* a slave of God when he became a man, as some have read into the scripture, for Paul did not say that Jesus took on being a slave, but that he took on the *form* [external appearance] of a bond-slave. In what way was Jesus externally in appearance as bond-slave? We can see by comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment. Jesus did not actually become a slave as other men, in bondage to corruption (Romans 8:21); he was never in submission to the corruption that is in the world. (2 Peter 1:4) He was, nevertheless, in the form [morpheen, external appearance] of such a bondage, for he suffered the consequences of sin, in the likeness of men (likeness of sinful flesh – Romans 8:3), so that he could redeem mankind from sin. Thus, externally, he appeared as though he were actually as other men, in bondage to the corruption and in slavery to sin, and he suffered and died as though as sinner, but this was only external appearance, for actually, he had no sin, nor was he ever a bond servant to sin. (Romans 6:16-20; Galatians 2:17) Thus we read, that “for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” — Hebrews 12:2, World English Bible translation.

Philippians 2:9
Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name.

Here the context shows that the earlier verses are speaking of Jesus being his God, or that Jesus ever was equal to his God. It is the God and Father of Jesus who exalts Jesus and and gives him the name which is above every name, the name of Yahweh being excepted. — 1 Corinthians 15:27.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TrinityQuestion/message/10433
http://godandson.reslight.net/phil-2-5.html

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

[acertainchap]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2008,11:27)

Hi Rd, Were the prophets normal men? If God could keep their vessels suitable for His purpose why not Christ? Christ was a normal man.

Hi Nick,

I have question. Do you think it was possible for Christ to sin? He must have had a free-will to do so like the rest of us.

[ronday888]

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 23 2008,06:37)

Rd, you have great incite into Scripture and I for one am glad that you took the time to type all of that to help us out. I agree with all that you said here but was confused with the part in beginning where you talk about man being crowned with 'that glory'. Not sure with what you mean by that statement. Do you mean that man was crowned with the glory of a sinful nature? Or as a child of wrath? Or both?

Adam was crowned with the glory of God, not of sin, or as a child of wrath. He fell short of that glory through sin. It was only through his disobedience that mankind became sons of disobedience and by nature, children of wrath.

Christian love,
Ronald

[NickHassan]

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 23 2008,11:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2008,11:27) Hi Rd, Were the prophets normal men? If God could keep their vessels suitable for His purpose why not Christ? Christ was a normal man. Hi Nick, I have question. Do you think it was possible for Christ to sin? He must have had a free-will to do so like the rest of us.

Hi ACC,
If he was tempted as we all are and overcame and did not sin then clearly it was possible to do so. But instead he used the sword of the Spirit against the tempter.

Matthew 4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[NickHassan]

Hi RD,
If being sinfree was dead easy for Christ because he was born different how can we follow him?

[ronday888]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2008,06:27)

Hi Rd, Were the prophets normal men? If God could keep their vessels suitable for His purpose why not Christ? Christ was a normal man.

The prophets were normal men condemned in Adam's original sin, who, through faith in the promises and the typical arrangements that pointed to the reality in Christ, were counted/imputed/reckoned as justified. Everything in the Old Testament is in some way related to the Adam's sin and the coming seed of promise that was to deliver man from his crooked condition. Without the reality of Jesus' sacrifice that was being typically displayed in the Old Testament, then there was no basis for God's dealing with anyone. While the Law promised life to anyone who fulfill that Law (Matthew 19:17), no one fulfilled that law until Christ came (Matthew 5:17), so no one received life through the Law. “By the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20) By “no flesh”, from the context, we can see that Paul is describing mankind dying in Adam as “flesh”, that they all are condemned, whether without the Law or with the Law. (Romans 1:18 – 2:1; 3:9; 5:12-19) Jesus was not included in this “flesh” because he was not condemned in Adam, was not under the subjection of futility, nor was he ever under the bondage of corruption, and he did fulfill that law, and had a right to life according to the Law, which right he gave up in order to free all from the condemnation of the Law.

Christian love,
Ronald

[NickHassan]

Hi RD,
So Christ was not an overcomer?
Did he fulfill the law by his own strength or in the anointing of God?

[ronday888]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2008,06:58)

Hi RD, If being sinfree was dead easy for Christ because he was born different how can we follow him?

Following Christ does not mean that we make ourselves sin free. I am puzzled that anyone would think this. Of course, by means of Christ working in us, and as one brings the body of flesh more and more into subjection to Christ, the body does indeed become more and more free of committing various sins.

It is only through faith in Christ, however, that our present body is counted/imputed/reckoned as free of sin. It is only as one receives the resurrection body, whether that body be spiritual or physical, that one can have a body fully sin free.

See my the second post on page 1019, for I have already covered most of this.

Nevertheless, there is much that could be written about following Christ; indeed practically every thing in the New Testament is about following Christ. To follow Christ, one has to be first regenerated, “born again”, producing a new creation. Following Christ is done, not in the flesh, but rather in the new creature, by means of God's spirit dwelling in the believer. The new creature created by means of the new birth is sin-free of an incorruptible seed. The new creature, although born without sin, being incorrupt, is not however, born without freedom to sin, anymore than was Adam so created. In other words the new creature is born incorrupt, but still corruptible. Thus the corruptible must put on incorruption. The new creature does have free-will. The new creature still has to develop into a steadfast perfect faith toward God, perfect love toward God and neighbor. Until the new creature has perfected such a faith and love, there is the possibility of sin, that he could be still hurt by the second death. The way that the new creature could willfully sin is if he has “has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace.” (Hebrews 10:29) Once the new creature has so sinned, there is no more sacrifice for sins left, so the one who has so sinned becomes reckoned as twice dead, plucked up by the roots. — Jude 1:12.

Christian love,
Ronald

[NickHassan]

Hi RD,
Sin comes from the earthy body.
Christ had a flesh and bones earthy body just like ours did he not?
He was tempted just as we are but those lusts were never submitted to for them to be conceived and given birth as sin in him.[Jas 1]

[acertainchap]

Book of James

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

[ronday888]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 24 2008,01:04)

Hi RD, Sin comes from the earthy body.

Scripture? I am not sure what point is trying to be made.

Of course, if one is minding the flesh, instead of the spirit (Romans 8:6), as Adam did in listening to the voice of his wife, instead of God, then one is being led into sin. I would not, however, say, in the case of Adam, however, that “sin came from the earthly body”, except that one's mind is located in the flesh. Nevertheless, in Paul's time humanity, as represented in the word “flesh” was sinful, so that usually, when he spoke of flesh, he spoke of sinful flesh that has resulted from the sin of Adam.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 24 2008,01:04)

Hi RD, Christ had a flesh and bones earthy body just like ours did he not?

He had a flesh and blood body just like Adam's; his body was just like ours in that it was flesh and blood; his body was not like ours in that his body was not sinful.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 24 2008,01:04)

Hi RD, He was tempted just as we are but those lusts were never submitted to for them to be conceived and given birth as sin in him.[Jas 1]

Okay.

Christian love,
Ronald

[NickHassan]

Hi RD,
This is the way of the MAN we follow
Rom 6
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

[GeneBalthrop]

acertaincap……> your quoting of James 1:15 stured a throught in me, was James saying the person must die when sin brings forth death or the act that caused the sin must die. I think some time we think when sin is associated with death we automaticaly think it means the person. For instance when someone commits adultary, what is most likely to die the person or the marriage the person was in. I believe when a person sins they create a state of death related to that act. It's the sinfull act that creates a death state, so as a result something must die. So if that which is in us produces sin then whats producing it must die. But that doesn't mean the person him or her self must die, but the cause must die. Because what ever sin touches creates a death state, in all relationships it touches, Love ginders life, sin genders death.

Interesting the way James stated it,….peace to you and yours…gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
We are born in the kingdom of darkness with the potential for death unless we can find life in the Son.[Jn3]

[martian]

Sin does not reside in the body/flesh. The biblical definition of sin is “missing the mark”. The concept cones from the Hebrew concept of an Archer missing the target.
The Torah was not a set of rules that if you broke them you were to be punished. The Torah/law w a set of guidleines passed down from Father to son to help them live productive lives while honoring God. When I son with a good heart missed the mrk, he was commended for his effort and counseled how to do it better next time. Only when a son was in willful disobediance was he punished. It was all about attitude. That is the place od sins esidence. In the attitude toward your Father's torah.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..> while i would agree with you saying, we are all born in a kingdom of darkness, I believe we are not born sinners though, but become infected by it, like we do when exposed to viruses, we were born into a infected world and through contact it transfers to us, and i think we remain infected some what until we recieve our new bodies.

IMO……….gene

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