The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi SOL,
No.
Natural men are mortal.
No connection with God except in being given breath.

January 25, 2008 at 9:44 pm#107421

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,06:41)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2008,06:33)

Hi WJ,
Are there three Spirits
or is the Spirit divided?

No! Exactly! So where does that leave you?

When the Spirit speaks to you is it the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit? Can you tell the difference?

One Spirit NH, yet there are three persons!

Thre is one mediator between God and man. the man Christ Jesus.

I pray to Jesus and He speaks to me because He is the mediator.

January 25, 2008 at 11:07 pm#107422

Participant

Hi WJ,
You say
“One Spirit NH, yet there are three persons!”

Where does scripture say God is composed of several PERSONS?

January 25, 2008 at 11:25 pm#107423

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,06:24)

Mrs

So how many spirits are in you?

The Fathers Spirit, The Spirit of the Son. or the Holy Spirit?

When are you gonna get it?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

See that?

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

So there is one Spirit that is in all. We do not preach three Spirits and neither did Christ or his apostles.

We can be in God and his son and they in us and we in each other. But there is one Spirit in all. That is the Spirit of God.

This is what makes us one, i.e., the same spirit.

January 25, 2008 at 11:31 pm#107424

seek and you will find

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,06:24)

Mrs

So how many spirits are in you?

The Fathers Spirit, The Spirit of the Son. or the Holy Spirit?

When are you gonna get it?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

See that?

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

So there is one Spirit that is in all. We do not preach three Spirits and neither did Christ or his apostles.

We can be in God and his son and they in us and we in each other. But there is one Spirit in all. That is the Spirit of God.

This is what makes us one, i.e., the same spirit.

Ame and Amen

Peace and Love to all. I wish with all my Heart that we would be united in Christ, with God's Holy Spirit which we received when we were born from above, at Baptism.
You can not prove the trinity to be right.

Peace and Love Mrs.

January 26, 2008 at 12:20 am#107425

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,06:24)

Mrs

So how many spirits are in you?

The Fathers Spirit, The Spirit of the Son. or the Holy Spirit?

When are you going to get it?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

See that?

See what? That we have been made to drink of the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ?

1 Cor 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Rev 22:11
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Jesus said…
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Jn 7:37

When is the last time you called men to come to you and drink and then filled them with your Spirit?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Who but God can pour out his Spirit and baptize men in the Holy Spirit and fire?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Is it the Fathers Spirit or Yeshuas Spirit or the Holy Spirit?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

So there is one Spirit that is in all. We do not preach three Spirits and neither did Christ or his apostles.

Yes there is One Spirit. So how do you explain these…

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty.

1 Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Looks like to me the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the believer. Yet they are one Spirit, One God.

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

We can be in God and his son and they in us and we in each other.

Is there a scripture that says we are in each other? What are you omnipresent?

What kind of new doctrine is this, that believers dwell in each other? Sounds like “New Age” stuff!

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

But there is one Spirit in all. That is the Spirit of God.

This is what makes us one, i.e., the same spirit.

Yes there is one Spirit in the believer and it is purely the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Son that comes from the Father and the Son who is the head of the Body in which he fills.

But we are not dwelling in each other as you claim! Only God can do that!

January 26, 2008 at 12:25 am#107426

Participant

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 26 2008,10:31)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,06:24)

Mrs

So how many spirits are in you?

The Fathers Spirit, The Spirit of the Son. or the Holy Spirit?

When are you gonna get it?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

See that?

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

So there is one Spirit that is in all. We do not preach three Spirits and neither did Christ or his apostles.

We can be in God and his son and they in us and we in each other. But there is one Spirit in all. That is the Spirit of God.

This is what makes us one, i.e., the same spirit.

Ame and Amen

Peace and Love Mrs.

mrs

Not trying to prove the Trinity, just showing scriptures that contradict “Unitarianism, Arianism, Henotheism, and Polytheism!

January 26, 2008 at 12:59 am#107427

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,11:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,06:24)

Mrs

So how many spirits are in you?

The Fathers Spirit, The Spirit of the Son. or the Holy Spirit?

When are you going to get it?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

See that?

See what? That we have been made to drink of the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ?

1 Cor 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

When is the last time you called men to come to you and drink and then filled them with your Spirit?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Who but God can pour out his Spirit and baptize men in the Holy Spirit and fire?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Is it the Fathers Spirit or Yeshuas Spirit or the Holy Spirit?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

So there is one Spirit that is in all. We do not preach three Spirits and neither did Christ or his apostles.

Yes there is One Spirit. So how do you explain these…

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty.

1 Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Looks like to me the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the believer. Yet they are one Spirit, One God.

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

We can be in God and his son and they in us and we in each other.

Is there a scripture that says we are in each other? What are you omnipresent?

What kind of new doctrine is this, that believers dwell in each other? Sounds like “New Age” stuff!

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

But there is one Spirit in all. That is the Spirit of God.

This is what makes us one, i.e., the same spirit.

But we are not dwelling in each other as you claim! Only God can do that!

Confusion.

January 26, 2008 at 1:07 am#107428

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,12:38)

None of the things you mention deal with
Jn 1:14

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 21 2008,08:11)

John 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. — King James Version.

The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. — World English Bible translation.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten [footnote: Or unique, only one of His kind] from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Most trinitarians, believing that John 1:1 says that the Logos is God Almighty, would have what John wrote in John 1:14 to mean that God Almighty became flesh.

First of all this statement is misrepresentation of the Trinitarian view based on your presupposition that the Word is not God, and your denial of Jn 1:1 and other scriptures like 1 John 5:20, Phil 2, Rev 1:8 that says the Word was and is God!

John makes the distinction between the Word/God and the Father in that the Word was with God.

The word “Theos” is a title to describe the “Nature” of a being whether in a true qualitative sence or a false qualitative sence which are not “Gods” at all. The title theos does not describe Identity as ATs claim, for there is no example in the NT where the followers of Christ ever used the word for any being other than the Father and the Son with the exception of the false “gods” or opposites of God, which are not gods at all. 1 Cor 8:4-6

So no Trinitarian believes your accusation that the Word is the Father! If John wanted to make this distinction that the Word was not God, then he could have used another word besides “theos” or just plainly said that he was a “mighty spirit being” as you call him. There is no scripture for this.

In fact Ron why don’t you give me one example of the NT disciples or Apostles ever calling any being “Theos” other than the Father and Yeshua excluding the obvious opposites of God which are not gods at all.

You again disagree with the scholars and the translators. I see this as a pattern with you Ron. You come here changing the translations with your own interpretations and using a lot of inference and reading into the scriptures.

Maybe you should check this sight out on the true interpretation of John 1:1.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 21 2008,08:11)

However, they would explain that what John really meant to say was that God Almighty was made flesh, not by changing his substance/essence to flesh, but by taking flesh to himself, his essence remained untouched

Misrepresentation! Untrue! The Father did not come in the Flesh! However, if the Father wanted to he could have, but the Word/God Yeshua came in the flesh.

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 21 2008,08:11)

But that was not what John actually said. Of course, the trinitarian assumes and adds a lot to the scriptures in their reasoning. In John 1:1, they assume that THEOS applied to Logos means that Jesus *was* the only true God whom he was with. (John 17:1,3,5) Then they would actually change and add to what John said, for John said nothing about the Logos 'taking flesh to himself'. The Logos “was made” or he “became” flesh.

Ok! Lets think about what you are saying in the light of these scriptures…

Jn 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matt 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Rom 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Gal 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

You are saying this “mighty spirit being” the word literally became flesh which would imply change of nature from spirit to flesh, which is apposed by many scritptures in the NT including the ones above. This would also mean that Yeshua was flesh only and that he “the mighty spirit being” is no longer spirit. Or you would have to admit that his spirit nature did not change and he remained Spirit the Word/God that came in the flesh according to…

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:3.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phil 2:6,7

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 21 2008,08:11)

Taking what John actually said, as opposed to what trinitarians would want John to have said, then, if God Almighty *became* flesh, this would mean that the actual flesh of Jesus was God Almighty

You really have no clue what Trinitarians believe do you? Misrepresentation! Do you like doing this? Does this add to the validity of your argument? Let me say it more plainly…

“JESUS IS NOT THE FATHER WHO HE WAS WITH”.. The Word was with God (Father) and Was God (Yeshua), the same was in the beginning with God (Father). You should once again believe the scriptures and not change the translation!

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 21 2008,08:11)

If the actual flesh of Jesus was indeed God Almighty, then the very being of God Almighty died. Of course, this is not what trinitarians teach, but it would be the logical consequence of John was if we assume that God Almighty Himself was made, or became, flesh.

Correct this is not what we teach, yet you continue to misrepresent us by your preconceived idea that the word “God” (Theo
s) is exclusive to the Father, which the Apostle John cleary shows in John 1:1, 20:28, 1 Jn 5:20, by not using another greek word besides “Theos” for the “Word”, Yeshua.

How do you explain this?

January 26, 2008 at 1:09 am#107429

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,11:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,11:20)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,06:24)

Mrs

So how many spirits are in you?

The Fathers Spirit, The Spirit of the Son. or the Holy Spirit?

When are you going to get it?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

See that?

See what? That we have been made to drink of the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ?

1 Cor 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

When is the last time you called men to come to you and drink and then filled them with your Spirit?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Who but God can pour out his Spirit and baptize men in the Holy Spirit and fire?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Is it the Fathers Spirit or Yeshuas Spirit or the Holy Spirit?

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

So there is one Spirit that is in all. We do not preach three Spirits and neither did Christ or his apostles.

Yes there is One Spirit. So how do you explain these…

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty.

1 Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Looks like to me the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is in the believer. Yet they are one Spirit, One God.

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

We can be in God and his son and they in us and we in each other.

Is there a scripture that says we are in each other? What are you omnipresent?

What kind of new doctrine is this, that believers dwell in each other? Sounds like “New Age” stuff!

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 26 2008,10:25)

But there is one Spirit in all. That is the Spirit of God.

This is what makes us one, i.e., the same spirit.

But we are not dwelling in each other as you claim! Only God can do that!

Confusion.

Which scriptures do you disagree with or confuse you?

January 26, 2008 at 1:46 am#107430

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278

Participant

Hi WJ,
You make a fine web of deceit from scripture,
using what is beauteous to form a deadly trap for the unwary.

January 26, 2008 at 4:10 am#107431

ronday888

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

Yes that is exactly my point. You take “your literal rendering” as you gave on page 1004 and place it above the W&H Interlinear.

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean, and I feel like I am debating on something totally irrelevant to the issue.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

True it is not yours and you have no authority or credentials to change it.

Since I never changed it, and never claimed to be changing it, the above is irrelevant.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

Well then now we have two witnesses against you, Greek experts that agree with each other. Look…

W&C
“ALL (THINGS) THROUGH HIM CAME TO BE, AND APART FROM HIM
CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING). WHICH HAS COME TO BE”

I see nothing here that is “against” me.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

Jay Green's Interlinear* (Second Edition, c. 1986)
“All things through Him came into being and without Him came into being not even one that came into being.”

I see nothing here that is “against” me.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

Am I missing something, or does the text truly read “All things through Him came into being”

Yes, all things (in context) came into being through the Logos, as I have shown.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

But you say… “I only dropped the word “things” and the word “even” that do not actually appear in the Greek text”.

Yes you “only dropped the word things” Don’t you think that would have some bearing on the text?

The Greek text does not have any word in it to correspond to “things” and that is all the only reason I dropped it.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

What right or credentials do you have to change the literal translations of the text?

Since I never did what I am being charged with doing, the above is irrelevant.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

I had no purpose of changing the texts or the translations. Jay Green's Literal Translation reads: “All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

“

Are you purposely over looking the first part of the verse?

Since I am not overlooking the first part of the verse, the question is irrelevant.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

In his literal translation, he adds the word “thing” after “one” and changes the inflection in the last instance from “came into being” to “has come into being”, which does not create any great difference as far as meaning is concerned.

Really? The words “All things came into being” as apposed to “only man came into being through him”, does not change the meaning in a “great way” which is what you are interpreting Jn 1:3 to say?

Note of the renderings offered change what I have shown from the scriptures.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

WJ presented nothing specific that he objects to in the rendering I gave.

Yes I did and you were not listening! All the translations on blueletterbible.org and bible gateway.com and here http://bible.cc/john/1-3.htm disagree with your interpretation of the verse. And as I have shown that the W&H and Jay Greens Interlinear disagree with your rendering of the verse.

For my part, I am not debating whether W&H or Jay Green's Interlinear disagrees with my rendering. It is a mute point. As far as I am concerned such is irrelevant, since one still has to consider the context and ther rest of the Bible, regardless.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:07)

[quote=ronday888,Jan. 18 2008,07:50]
If there is something specific that anyone wishes to present concerning the Greek, then the specific case should be presented. Otherwise, I simply view statements such as WJ's above as meaningless and designed to sidetrack the issue.

I have addressed the specifics, and it would seem to me that you attempt to sidetrack the issue by ignoring the scripture and its true interpretation, and by removing important words like “Things” and “Even” out of the translation thereby changing the meaning and apposing hundreds of Greek scholars.

Quote

Neither of the words actually appears in the Greek. However, all of this totally irrelevant to anything. Not even one thing was made without him that was made. One still has to consider the context and the rest of the Bible to realize what is being referred to.

Nevertheless, many translations made by trinitarians as well as others do not add the word “even” to their translation:

All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made. — World English Bible translation.

All R5 things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. — New American Standard.

All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. — American Standard

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. — English Standard.

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. — New King James Version.

All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. — Holman Christian Standard.

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. — Third Millennium

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. — New International Version.

All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being. — New Revised Standard Version

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. — King James Version

all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. — Revised Standard Version.

The above are just a few examples. Were the translators of these translations changing the text by not adding the word “even” into their translation?

As I noted before, W&H shows that the word “thing(s)” is added by using parenthesis.

It still appears to me that this whole line of argument is simply a smokescreen to turn attention away from all the scriptural evidence I gave earlier, which, so far, WJ has simply ignored.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

[quote=ronday888,Jan. 18 2008,07:50]
Yes, it still says the same thing. I do not deny what it says. Nor do I deny the context as well as the rest of the scriptures that show what is being spoken of.

But if you interpret “without him *nothing was made* that has been made” as being through him only man was made then you have denied the text and the translations.

That is not what I said. I said the “world of mankind” was made through Jesus. This includes all of things described in the six days of creation in Genesis 1 and 2. The six days are the “beginning”. (Exodus 20:11; 31:17) I have given the scriptural reasonings for believing this to be true.

Irregardless, however, as to what is included in “all things”, Jesus is still the agent, not the actual source of the creation.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

Some of the translations render the word “dia” as “by” and some of them as “through”.

I say it makes no difference. Here is why. If Jesus is not just a funnel that the Father made all things through then it would mean that he had substance, essence just as the Father. He is Spirit just as the Father. Heb 1:2.

Jesus was indeed a spirit being with His God and Father before he came into the world of mankind. In this sense he had the substance of a spirit being just as his God and Father, and just as the angels are of spirit substance. I don't see anything in this that has any relevance to Jesus' allegedly not being used as the agent in creation.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Being that all things are made through him and for him as we see in Col 1:16, then it would make sense that all things are held together by him, even by the word of his power. Heb 1:2

Yes, Jesus was the instrument used (Greek, en), the agent (Greek, dia) used in the creation being spoken of, “thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers,” that is living creation, both creatures visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth. I believe have discussed this scripture before.

I have given before at least two trinitarian Greek scholars who said that Jesus was being spoken of as the agent in creation in John 1:3. The New American Bible has a footnote on Colossians 1:16,17:

Quote

Christ (though not mentioned by name) is preeminent and supreme as God's agent in the creation of all things (cf John 1:3), as prior to all things (Col 1:17; cf Hebrews 1:3).

Greek scholar Daniel B. Wallace, in his book *Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics*, page 434, regarding John 1:3, being trinitarian, speaks of the Logos as creator in a “hands-on” sort of way. However, he does show that Jesus is the agent used, for he says: “Intermediate agency is ascribed to Christ (with dia).”

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

So the Hebrew writer confirms who it is that laid the foundation of the earth.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:10….

Yes, Jesus laid the foundation of the earth, as described in the six days of creation, being the instrument used by his God.

God bless.

January 26, 2008 at 10:20 pm#107432

ronday888

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Of course “all things” does not mean God himself, which is clarified in John 1:1 – 3.

At least this admits that “all things” does not mean absolutely everything in the universe.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Since Jesus did not make himself, nor is he one of the created or one of the all things, Col 1:16,17, Heb 1:2,10.

Then he is simply the Creator with the Father and the Spirit.

Since the Logos did not make himself, nor is he one of the created “all things” being spoken of, and since he is not “the only true God” whom he was with (John 17:1,3,5), then he was created before the “all things” being spoken of, in agreement with Colossians 1:15. This would actually be the default reasoning, in accordance with the scriptures.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Most of what is presented there I have already discussed; I will, God willing, return to that page later.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

The above simply shows that what I have been posting has not been studied in detail. I do not say that Jesus created anything at all. I stay by what the scriptures say. It was “through” Jesus that God, whom the Logos was with, created these things. Nor have I ever said that Jesus was not the instrument in the creation of things other than the world of mankind. I do say that John 1:3 is referring only to the things of the world of mankind. Colossians 1:16 shows that God also used the prehuman Jesus in creation of all living things, dominions visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth. Again, while the context shows that Colossians 1:15,16 is referring to intelligent living creatures, I do not say that Jesus was not the instrument in the creating of the land masses, the physical heavens (atmosphere), etc., as described in Genesis 1.

Through Jesus or by Jesus?

“Through” (Greek, dia) and “by (instrumentality)” (Greek, en). The Greek words “dia” and “en” designate agency and instrumentality respectively.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

So you think that the Father only is the creator yet somehow Yeshua is just an “agent” that he made all things through as “an instrument” as you say?

How would you explain these scriptures?…

Isa 37:16
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (not gods) thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Isaiah 37:16 – Yahweh of hosts, the God of Israel, who sits [above] the cherubim, you are the God, even you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

Yes, Yahweh alone is the God of Israel. This agrees with John 17:3.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 44:24 – Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth (who is with me?).

This describes the creation of the physical universe. Jesus evidently had not yet been created at the time of the creation of physical universe, and thus Yahweh was indeed all alone in that creation.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Job 9:8
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Job 9:7 – Who commands the sun, and it doesn't rise, And seals up the stars.
Job 9:8 – Who alone stretches out the heavens, Treads on the waves of the sea.

This is evidently not referring to the original creation, but of Yahweh's control over the creation. Yahweh alone had that ultimate control. However, even after all things were made subject to Jesus, Yahweh himself himself excluded (1 Corinthians 15:7), so that even now Yahweh alone is the One with ultimate control.

At any rate, Jesus was indeed evidently not present at the original creation of the physical heavens.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

So what makes you think God used a lessor being than himself to create all things?

What does “alone” and “by myself” mean? Do you think John and Paul didn’t know these scriptures when they penned the words claiming Yeshua as Co-Creator with the Father? They surely did, for they understood the nature of the Father and the Son as One in nature.

While some use the term co-creator relative to God's usage of Jesus in the creation, the scriptures do not use that term. However, the prefix “co” does not necessarily mean equality, but rather a cooperation, a working together. Jesus was certainly a co-worker with God in the creation of the world of mankind and of the angels. I believe that Jesus is depicted in Proverbs 8:30 as saying: “I was beside him [God], like a master workman.”

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

How about these scriptures that also confirms the presence of the Holy Spirit in creation…

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Yes, Yahweh used his spirit in the creation of the heavens, and it is by means of his spirit that God gives life.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Yet we know that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

I do not know of any scripture that says that God's spirit “proceeds” from the Son. The “spirit of truth” is said to proceed from the Father. (John 14:26; 15:26) Jesus obtains that spirit from his God and Father in order to give it to his disciples. — Luke 24:49; John 15:26; Acts 2:33.

All things are of the Father through the Son. — 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Yeshua is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. That is because he is the Word/God, One with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Yes, Jesus baptizes with the holy spirit of his God. (John 1:33) He also baptizes with fire. (Luke 3:16) None of this means that Jesus is his God.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Party 1 wanted to build a house.
Party 1 hires party 2 (contractor) to build the house.
Party 2 builds the house.
Party 1 (The Father) says “I built a house”.

Does this mean that part 2 (Yeshua) or party 3 (Holy Spirit) didnt build the house?

Of course, I never have said that Jesus did not do the actually building of creation. Indeed, that is precisely what I have been claiming.

A more correct illustration would be; an architect hires a builder to build the house. The source, the actual creator of the house was the architect. Yes, the builder may perform the actual act of building, but the builder is not the “creator”.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Yeshua was not just an empty shell that the Father created all things through but is the very essence by which all things were made and are upheld.

I never claimed Jesus was “just an empty shell”. He was, however, God's active agent in the creation.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 18 2008,07:50)

Rightly understood in context, and with the rest of what God has revealed by means of his holy spirit in the scriptures, none of the translations disagree with what I am saying. A reader of the translation, however, who has a preconception, may isolate the verse both from context and the rest of the scriptures in order to support a wrong conclusion.

Let me illustrate by quoting Hebrews 2:8 likewise:

in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. — World English

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. — New American Standard.

For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. — American Standard.

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. — English Standard Version.

For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. — King James Version

For in subjecting everything to him, He left nothing not subject to him. — Holman Christian Standard Bible translation.

In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. — New International Version

for in the subjecting to him the all things, nothing did He leave to him unsubjected. — Young's Literal Translation.

For, in subjecting, to him the all things, nothing, left he, to him unsubjected. — Rotherham's Emphasized Bible translation.

Yes, most definitely, in isolation, without looking at other scriptures, it would appear that God has subjected absolutely everything in the universe to man. Thus, by such an isolation of the scripture, one could conclude the angels became lower than man, and that the sun, the moon, the stars, the solar systems, the galaxies, etc., are under the control of man. Of course, such is absurd! One *has* consider the rest of the scriptures as well as common evidence. (Psalm 8:5-8) And, likewise, in John 1:3, one must consider not only the context, but also the rest of the revealment through God's spirit.

Regardless of the translation, one still has to consider the context as well as the rest of the God's revealment thoughout the scriptures.

May God bless.

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

Heb 2:6
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

That was cute how you just clipped a part of a verse and then proceeded to expound on it with apologetics.

This scripture is prophetic of Yeshua and his overcoming Church.

This fails to take into consideration what Paul was speaking of, and what Paul was quoting. It displaces what Paul was actually saying by claiming that Psalm 8:5-8 was actually a prophecy concerning Jesus and the church, and not a statment about man's original creation. Let us look at the questions and the statement following:

Psalm 8:4 What is man, that you think of him? The son of man, that you care for him?
Psalm 8:5 For you have made him a little lower than God, And crowned him with glory and honor.
Psalm 8:6 You make him ruler over the works of your hands. You have put all things under his feet:
Psalm 8:7 All sheep and oxen, Yes, and the animals of the field,
Psalm 8:8 The birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, And whatever passes through the paths of the seas.

This corresponds with:

Genesis 1:26 – God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

If the writer of Hebrews was saying that Psalm 8:5-6 applies to Jesus and the church, then the church is to have a glory a liitle l
ower than the angels, and the “all things” that are subjected to Jesus and the church, and of which nothing was not made subject to them, would be: “All sheep and oxen, Yes, and the animals of the field, The birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, And whatever passes through the paths of the seas.” — Psalm 8:7,8.

Elsewhere, Paul speaks of all things both in heaven and earth being made subject to Jesus, not just all things that are being spoken of in Psalm 8. — Matthew 28:18; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:22.

Of course, in reality, Hebrews 2:6-8 is not speaking of Jesus and the church. In context the writer speaks of the final dominion of the age to come (upon the earth, not in heaven), which is not to be made subject to angels. (Hebrews 2:5) The writer then tells that Man was originally crowned with glory (he was not short of the glory of God – Romans 3:23), and given a dominion, so that all things were originally made subject to man, and since all things were made subject to man, there was not one thing that was not made subject to him, but now (due to mankind's fall from the glory of God) we do not yet see all things made subject to man.

It is in verse nine that the writer begins to speak of Jesus as a man. But, although we do not see all things subject to man, we do see Jesus.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The writer applies the verse to Jesus, showing that Jesus was made flesh, as John 1:14 tells us, crowned with a glory a little lower than the angels. This is not speaking of Jesus' exaltation when he was made higher than the angels. By the reference to his having been made “a little lower than the angels”, we know that it refers to Jesus as a man, and of his death as a man. He was he exact equivalent of Adam (as described in Psalm 8:5,6) before Adam sinned.

Jesus, having a body prepared by God (Hebrews 10:5), was like Adam was before Adam became corrupted through sin. Jesus was crowned with glory as a man, a little lower than the angels, but did not, as did Adam, fall short of God's glory, and thus he retained that crown of glory untarnished, by which he had something to offer to purchase mankind. Thus by his death, he gave up that crown of glory as a human, that he should taste death for every man.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

So what makes you think God has not put all things in subjection to man?

That bears down on the point I am speaking of. “All things” here is not speaking of absolutely everything in the universe. Psalm 8:7,8 shows what is included in the “all things” that is being spoken of.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

We know that he gave us dominion over the earth and the things in the earth. Scriptures teach that man shall have dominion over all things through Christ.

Precisely my point, man's dominion will be restored through Christ in the age to come. That dominion given to man, however, does not include everything in the universe, even though it says that God “left nothing that is not put under him,” a statement similar to that of John 1:3, using variations of the same words used in John 1:3. The “all things” is relative to man whose glory was that “a little lower than the angels”.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Again, “nothing that is not put under him” (man a little lower than angels), refers to: “All sheep and oxen, Yes, and the animals of the field, The birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, And whatever passes through the paths of the seas.” (Psalm 8:7,8) This was the dominion given to man, a little lower than the angels. — Genesis 1:26,28.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Yet we know according to Heb 1:3 and Matt 28:19 he has all power in Heaven and earth.

Hebrews 1:3 – His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

This is not speaking of man crowned with a glory a little lower than the angels, as the writer speaks of in Hebrews 2:7-8, nor even of Jesus as spoken of in Hebrews 2:9, when he was crowned with a glory a little lower than of the angels (Hebrews 2:9), but of Jesus, who is no longer a man little lower than the angels, who is now exalted high above the angels, “having become so much better than the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name than they have.” — Hebrews 1:4; see also Philippians 2:9.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This scripture is not speaking of man's dominion, as in Hebrews 2:7-8, but of Christ and the saints.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2008,14:12)

Rev 22:5
And there will no longer be {any} night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

This scripture is referring to the throne of God [Yahweh] and the Lamb (Revelation 22:1); this is not speaking of man's dominion or the crown of glory a little lower than the angels.

Christian love,
Ronald

January 27, 2008 at 12:12 am#107433

ronday888

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,12:38)

None of the things you mention deal with…
1 Tim 3:16

1 Timothy 3:16 is one of those scriptures that is often misrepresented by trinitarians as speaking of the “mystery of the godhead” (http://tinyurl.com/yotz92) or the “mystery of the trinity”. Many seem to read the expression “mystery of godliness” as though it says “mystery of the Godhead” or “mystery of the trinity”, when, in fact, there is nothing at all in 1 Timothy 3:16 about “godhead” or “trinity”. We do read there of a mystery, but we find nothing there about a mystery of a trinity, nor a mystery of “the godhead” as some have spoken of in reference to 1 Timothy 3:16.

1 Timothy 3:16 – By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory. — New American Standard.

Or, KJV: without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; RHM: confessedly great is the sacred secret of godliness; WMS: the mystery of our religion is a great wonder; NEB: great beyond all question if the mystery of our religion; GDS: no one can deny the profundity of the divine truth of; NWT: godly devotion; BAR: the greatness of the truth of our religion. The Greek often translated “religion” is EU-SEBEIAS [Strong's Concordance #2150, well-reverent]. Dictionary of New Testament Theology [Colin Brown], Volume 2, page 91, comments on the root meaning of this word: “The root seb- meant originally to step back from someone or something, to maintain a distance…developed the metamorphical idea of trepidation ranging from shame, through wonder, to something approaching fear.” Thus, this awe [wonder/fear] inspires worship of the Creator which some call religion. The Greek for “mystery” is MYSTERION [Strong's Concordance #3466].

The word “mystery” is in 1 Timothy 3:16; there is nothing there that says anything about this “mystery” being that Jesus has two states of glory at once, or that Jesus is Yahweh; these ideas have to be added to and read into what is stated.

What is the Greek word translated “mystery” and its meaning?

Musterion
hidden thing, secret, mystery
generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
a hidden purpose or counsel
secret will 1c
of men 1c
of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
in rabbinic writings, it denotes the mystic or hidden sense
of an OT saying
of an image or form seen in a vision
of a dream
Thayer and Smith. “Greek Lexicon entry for Musterion”. “The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon”.
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicon….on=nas. 1999.

What is the mystery referred to? Is it not “the mystery of godliness”? What does “godliness” mean?

The Greek word “godliness” is transliterated as “Eusebeia” which means “reverence, respect, piety toward God.”
Thayer and Smith. “Greek Lexicon entry for Eusebeia”. “The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon”.
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2150.

Is Paul, then, speaking of God's own godliness (reverence, respect, piety) toward himself as a mystery? Obviously, it is speaking of someone else's reverence toward God, not of God's reverence toward Himself. What we can be certain of is that the “mystery” spoken of is not an alleged “mystery” of a trinity. The word translated “godliness” has to do with the manner of worship, not of a duality of natures of Jesus in the flesh (one sentient being who omniscient, and another sentient being who is not ominsicent?). The latter idea has to be twisted into the scripture.

Whose godliness toward God is spoken of as a mystery? 1 Timothy 3:16 then tells of Christ “Who (as in the oldest Greek Siniatic MS text — not “God”) was manifest [Phaneroo] in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

The Greek word *Phareroo* means:

to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way make actual and visible, realised to make known by teaching to become manifest, be made known of a person expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
who and what one is

Thayer and Smith. “Greek Lexicon entry for Phaneroo”. “The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon”. http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicon….on=nas. 1999.

So, then is this mystery of godliness understood by anyone? It should be apparent that this “mystery” was understood by some, and yet it is a mystery to others.

Who is this mystery of godliness, of piety toward God, concerning? None other than the one spoken in the following words: the one who was revealed in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, who was proclaimed among the nations, etc. That is, the Messiah, Jesus, the Son of the living God.

Why is the mystery so great? Because, through the full and total obedience of Jesus, life and incorruption (Greek, Aphtharsia) has been brought to light for mankind. (2 Timothy 1:10) Jesus never once disobeyed his God, nor once did he do other than what pleased his God. By his obedience, unlike Adam, Jesus brought life and incorruption to light.

What has God revealed through his scriptures concerning this mystery of godliness? This glorious One, as a human, never fell short of the glory of God by sin. (Romans 3:23) Unlike Adam and the sinful flesh produced from Adam, he fully had the crown of glory as a human, and kept the crown untainted by sin. (Hebrews 2:9) He gave up the glory of humanity, in order to provide a sacrifice for Adam and the dying race in Adam, that he might taste death for every man. Although now of a different plane of glory than he had while on earth (John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40; Hebrews 2:9), he is the same one who, while on earth, was the Man Christ Jesus, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. (Isaiah 53:3) Jesus spoke of the glory he had before the world was made, which glory he did not have while on earth. (John 17:5) Paul tells us how Jesus left the heavenly glory, how He humbled Himself to take a bondman's form — to take the same form of bondage as humanity had come into bondage due to sin. (Philippians 2:7,8) Jesus was not a “God-man”. He was completely and totally that which the Bible claims that he was, a human being, nothing more, nothing less, “a little lower than the angels,” except that the Bible reveals that his body of flesh was prepared by his God, so that his flesh was not tainted with Adamic sinful flesh. Thus he had been given a body which could be offered in sacrifice for the sinful, dying world. (Luke 22:19; John 6:51; Hebrews 10:5,10) Additionally, unlike Adam, Jesus had been with his God and Father long before the world of mankind was made (John 17:5), so that he was amply taught (John 8:28), prepared, sanctified, before the only true God sent him into the world of mankind. (John 10:36; 17:1,3) Having fully kept the law of God up until the age of 30, he was approved by his God and Father as acceptable as the atoning sacrifice for the sin of the world. (Matthew 3:
15-17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 1:29; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:10) Having no sin, and having proven himself fully obedient, Jesus was given unlimited access to the holy spirit of his God. — John 3:34; Matthew 12:28.

How was Jesus justified in the spirit? Jesus had no need to be justified from sin, for he was without sin. Jesus was, however, proved right, proved to be without sin, in the spirit when he was tried, even until his death. He proved to be whom he claimed, to be, the Messiah, the one without spot, without sin. His spirit of obedience never failed. Nevertheless, Paul could have been referring to Jesus' being raised “in the spirit”. The matter was set straight, in other words — not yet to unbelieving world, but before the angels — he was “seen of angels” — and he was justified before believers on the earth.

Jesus was “preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world”. The world of mankind in general has never believed on Jesus. To them all of this is still a mystery, for it has not become apparent — it has not been revealed to their understanding — exactly who Jesus was and is. Additionally, because of compromise — a falling away from the true faith, God has sent his people [by allowing Satan to do his work] a strong delusion, which has furthered muddled an understanding of who Jesus is, so that even many who profess Christ have not truly understood. — 2 Thessalonians 2:3-11.
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesusnotyhwh.html
http://studies.reslight.net/mysteries.html

Could the mystery be understood? By whom? Jesus was believed on “in the world”. The mystery was and is understood by many true believers that Jesus was indeed the one who was without sin, the man who died to correspond to Adam (Romans 5:15-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6); the one who was sent by the only true God to provide the ransom sacrifice, the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice for sin. (John 17:1,3; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:10) These believers are “in the world” but not “of the world”. — John 17:11,16.

Jesus was received into glory; not the human glory that he had sacrificed , but the glory of a celestial, heavenly, spiritual body. — 1 Corinthians 15:40,44.
http://atonement.reslight.net/raisedspirit.html

This is our confession of godliness, which is great, for we cannot have any basis for godliness on our part without the one sent by the only true God.

Writings by others:
http://tinyurl.com/qwbbd

The claim is made by one that there are 262 out of 264 manuscripts in Greek that testify to the word “God” being the correct reading of 1 Timothy 3:16.

1 Timothy 3:16
kai homologoumenws mega estin to tees eusebeias
AND CONFESSEDLY GREAT IS THE OF THE REVERING WELL
2532 3672 3173 1510_2 3588 3588 2150
musteerion hos ephanerwthee en sarki edikaiwthee
MYSTERY; WHO WAS MANIFESTED IN FLESH, WAS JUSTIFIED
3466 3739 5319 1722 4561 1344
en pneumati wphthee aggelois ekeeruchthee en
IN SPIRIT, WAS SEEN TO ANGELS, WAS PREACHED IN
1722 4151 3708 0032 2784 1722
ethnesin episteuthee en kosmw aneleemphthee en
NATIONS, WAS BELIEVED IN WORLD, WAS TAKEN UP IN
1484 4100 1722 2889 0353 1722
doxee
GLORY.
1391
Westcott & Hort Interlinear

1 Timothy 3:16 reads, in part:
hOS EFANERWQH EN SARKI
EDIKAIWQH EN PNEUMATI
WFQH AGGELOIS
EKHRUCQH EN EQNESIN
EPISTEUQH EN KOSMW
ANELHMFQH EN DOXH
from:
http://tinyurl.com/op6az

While I highly doubt that Paul wrote “God” in this verse, even so, one still has to read into the verse what trinitarians claim, that it is speaking of a duality of being of Jesus, or that Jesus is Yahweh.

Many refer to the above as a “hymn”.

The World English, based on the Textus Receptus, reads: Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: God was revealed in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, And received up in glory.

God was indeed made manifest, was revealed, in his Son in the flesh, but not to the entire world, but only “to whoever the Son wants to reveal him”. (Matthew 11:27) 1 Timothy 3:16, as it reads in the Textus Receptus, does not say that Jesus was “God in the flesh”, as some often misquote what is said in the KJV and some other translations of 1 Timothy 3:16. What it says is “God was revealed in the flesh.” Jesus, having descending from his God and Father from heaven, knew his God. (John 3:13) Not only this, Jesus maintained piety toward His God and Father in perfect fidelity to the glory of his God and Father. Jesus did not at all fall short of the glory of God, as did Adam. — Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 1:18; 14:6-9; 17:3,6,8,21,23,26.

God was justified — proven righteous — in Christ's spirit of obedience, proving that God's just laws and commands for man are not unjust, by which Jesus condemned sin in the flesh, and yet, through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, God is the justifier of the sinner. — Romans 3:25,26; 8:3.
http://atonement.reslight.net/c-s.html

God was seen in Jesus by the angels. — Matthew 4:11; 26:53; Mark 1:13; Luke 8:1; John 1:51.

God was preached amongst Israel and the Gentiles through the preaching of and about His Son. — Luke 4:43; 9:2; Mark 1:14; Luke 4:18,19,43; 8:1; 9:2; Acts 8:12; 10:42; 20:25; 28:31; Romans 15:19; 1 Corinthian 1:21; Galatians 2:2.

God was being believed in among the Gentiles (as well as in Israel) through their faith in His Son, and his sacrifice for sin. — Mark 1:15; John 1:12; 3:16,17; Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:19-20; Titus 3:4-6; 1 John 1:3; 2:23; 4:9,10,19

God, as seen in his Son, was received in glory, by which the God and Father of Jesus was glorified in His Son. — John 12:28; 17:1; Acts 2:24-36; Romans 6:4; 15:6; Ephesians 1:17,20; Philippians 4:19,20; 1 Peter 1:3.

None of this means that Jesus is the only true God, Yahweh, who sent Jesus. — Isaiah 61:1; John 17:1,3.

Additionally, the mystery being spoken of is not God's piety to himself, but mostly about His Son's piety toward his God in Jesus' perfect obedience and reflection of God's glory. As God is in Jesus, the believer is in Jesus, and Jesus and God are in the believer (John 10:38; 14:10,20; Romans 8:1,2; 12:5; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 3:1; 2 Corinthians 1:21; 5:17,19; 12:19; Galatians 2:4; 3:28), and Jesus prayed “that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.” (John 17:21, see also John 17:23) All of this pertains to the secret of piety that Paul was speaking about.

Thus whether Paul actually used the word THEOS or HOS or HO does not really matter.

The 264 manuscripts being referred to above are evidently the “cursive” copies of Paul's letters that contain 1 Timothy 3:16. Just citing these manuscripts, or any other comparisons of numbers of manuscripts, has very little meaning except that one would wish to becloud the issue. If a thousand manuscripts have been copied from only one manuscript that contains an error, and only one manuscript is available that does not contain the error, the fact a thousand manuscripts have been copied with an error does not take away the fact that these thousand manuscripts do contain the error.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/dogma.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/timothy.html
http://www.bible-rese
archer.com/alexandrinus4.html

It is claimed that the “os” (“he, he who, who”) reading in the Classical Greek of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus sets up an impossibility in both Greek and English grammar, being a sentence with a subject and no predicate.

What is being done is an attempt to discredit the manuscripts that have HOS by the argument that the masculine HOS does not match the neuter musteerion.

Actually, however, one should not be attempting to match HOS with musterion, for the entire description, or “hymn”, following is the musterion, not the word HOS in itself. It is a “hymn” of Christ's faithfulness to God. In verse 13, Paul stated: “For those who have served well as deacons gain to themselves a good standing, and great boldness in the faith which in Christ Jesus.” He had earlier referred to the “the mystery [musteerion] of faith.” (1 Timothy 3:9) He continues to explain why he has written these things, that “you may know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the assembly (eclessia — called out ones) of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” He is speaking about godliness in the church as a mystery to the world, but which godliness can be seen in Jesus, etc. The correspondence of musterion is not to the word HOS, but the all the rest of the lines in verse 16 that follow, with it understood that HOS refers to Christ Jesus who displayed this godliness.
http://godandson.reslight.net/1tim3-16.html

Christian love,
Ronald
http://godandson.reslight.net

January 27, 2008 at 4:37 am#107434

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,12:09)

Confusion.[/quote]
t8

Which scriptures do you disagree with or confuse you?

I disagree with the reasoning that is made in order to preserve a doctrine that was NEVER taught in scripture.

Your methodology is similar to other denominations methodology.

A railroad of scriptures in a certain order to paint a picture that was never meant to be painted.

“But for us there is one God, the Father, and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is what we believers are to believe, unless you think Paul taught falsely of course.

January 27, 2008 at 3:20 pm#107435

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2008,15:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 26 2008,12:09)

Confusion.

Which scriptures do you disagree with or confuse you?

[/quote]
I disagree with the reasoning that is made in order to preserve a doctrine that was NEVER taught in scripture.

Your methodology is similar to other denominations methodology.

A railroad of scriptures in a certain order to paint a picture that was never meant to be painted.

“But for us there is one God, the Father, and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is what we believers are to believe, unless you think Paul taught falsely of course.

tb,
I have on several occasions posted on the cut and paste theology that is prevelent in todays church and on this board.
I posted this before but I have eddited it since then and you might find it of interest when debating those in false doctrine.

an unfortunate fact that many Christians have no idea how to study scripture honestly. This is true of even the most “so-called” mature Christians.
Do we seek to understand our rich Judeo-Christian history? Do we really want to knew God? Do we seek to know God’s plan for all men and us personally? Do we seek to know the character of Christ and become like him?
Our motives in researching the word will strongly effect whether we will follow these principles or not.

We all interpret whatever we read. Interpretation is the basis under which we comprehend what is being said. In order to really be honest with the Word it is necessary to have certain logical rules for interpretation. These rules are commonly called Hermeneutics or principles of exegesis. They are based on logic and very simple concepts of the Christian walk.

The most common form of interpretation used today is called “Cut and Paste Theology”. In this method a person can take a scripture out of context put it with several others, disregarding any proper hermeneutical principles and make a doctrine out of it. Not understanding the culture or definitions of words. Using ambiguous scriptures that are misinterpreted to contradict very clear scriptures. With this type of “scholarship” a person can prove just about anything from scripture. When one actually looks at these doctrines with proper principles they completely fall apart. This is not to say that there are not scriptures that can stand on their own but always must also stand within the proper interpretive process. In other words they need no other scriptures for their meaning to be very clear.
We start from a premises that the “original scriptures” as written by the prophets and apostles were inspired by God Himself. No particular later translation has inspiration. There are good and bad translations. Those who penned the scriptures wrote exactly what God wanted to say and that God wants us to know the truth. God used the personalities of the authors, situations, natural realm, culture and circumstances for the purpose of teaching us. The purpose of scripture is to win the lost, learn of God, and to teach the saved how to become like Christ and walk with God as He did.
Even great knowledge about the scriptures cannot take the place of personal interaction and relationship with God. Christianity is fundamentally experiential and not simply mental. You can study all the scriptures about salvation. You can read all the great teachers on the subject, but until you experience the sweet grace of God and feel the burden of sin lifted from your soul and the first intimate touch of God’s Spirit, you do not know salvation. The word is a teaching tool to bring us to relationship with Christ. Scripture is not the complete standard by which we live. Christ is the standard. He is the cornerstone and becoming like Him is the goal. For too many Christians have become trapped being scriptural instead of relational or doctrinal instead of experiential. REMEMBER — everything is about becoming like Christ.

In the past 100 years there have been very significant archeological finds that directly impact our understanding of scripture such as evidence form the Dead Sea Scrolls proving that Hebrew was an active language in the time of Christ. It is an unfortunate fact that even recently published reference works are simple copies of the same material prevalent from the 1800s. Keep you research material current.

Although the following principles are a good broad outline of understanding from an intellectual standpoint, it is the conclusions of our interpretations that must first and foremost be tested for their validity. Several tests can be applied from the very beginning that can detect false doctrine without prolonged Bible study.. These tests are important because those who teach false doctrine will not hold to honest principles when their doctrines come under scrutiny. Most of those in false teaching will immediately recognize that their doctrines will not survive these tests and they will refuse to follow them.
A. Among most Christians there are certain accepted truths about God that are universal. These include both “physical” attributes and character traits.
God has very specific attributes.
He is a Spirit.
He is eternal and cannot die.
He is all knowing.
He is omnipresent.
He is invisible.
He is all powerful.
He cannot be tempted
He cannot fail
He cannot sin
And the one that impacts all others is His immutability. He cannot change what or who He is. His deity is predicated upon all of these attributes. To give any of them up would counteract or take away from His deity and nature. It is simply impossible for a God to give up any of these attributes and be the God of the bible.
Any conclusion from supposed interpretation that contradicts these attributes must be false.
B. God is a reasoning being and we are created in His image with the ability to reason as well. God calls us to reason with Him that we might understand Him. Any teaching that in finale analisis depends on mysticism or is defended as a mystery beyond our understanding goes against God’s desire for us to know him.
C. God has a plan for man. Creation centers around that plan. It is the stage onto which that plan comes to fruition. Simply put, that plan is for God to raise up children unto himself that have the same character, motives, and intentions as He does.
The first to attempt this plan was Adam. The first to achieve it was Jesus. Jesus is our example and the forerunner/firstfruits of all of man. We are to become like him. This is not rhetoric, this is the actual desire of God. Any supposed conclusion that hinders or detracts from God’s plan cannot be accurate.
Now that we have established a basis to begin, let’s talk about the fundamentals of understanding scripture.
Here is a list of principles to use to properly use, translate, and understand scripture.
1. Scripture must interpret scripture. No one has a private interpretation but all proofs must come from the word itself. A good idea and safety is to use only scriptural terms to understand the meaning of a verse.
2. It does not matter what we believe to be true or how we feel about a subject. All that matters is what promotes and establishes God character and plan in His creation/us.
3. Spend a majority of time in clear understandable scripture. Never base a belief on ambiguous scriptures.
4. There is o
nly one truth. Never base a doctrine on an interpretation of scriptures that causes contradiction with other clear scriptures. If there is a seeming contradiction, this indicates a need for further research to ascertain the truth. A clear scripture always supersedes and ambiguous one and does not cause a contradiction.
5. When attempting to understand a difficult scripture follow these guidelines —
A. Form a hypothesis of what you think it may mean then test it. this really is automatic, since we will come to an idea by simply reading the verse in question. (This is the point at which we should check our conclusions with the plan, the character, and the attributes of God. If there is a contradiction, there is no need to go further, a new hypothesis should be made.)
B. Does your idea fit the immediate context? This is the first and foremost challenge, within scripture, and the one most often missed.
C. Does your idea fit the general over all tenor or context of scripture.
D. Is the language figurative or literal. In many cases a little common since can be applied here. For instance no biologist in the world is going to confirm the existence of a seven headed beast as is mentioned in Revelations. This is obviously a figurative story.
E. Understand the historical, geographical or cultural time in which it is written.
F. Understand who was inspired to write the scripture and to whom it was being written.
G. Use several translations to avoid the possible bias of one particular translator.
H. Attempt to find unbiased meanings of Greek and Hebrew words.
I. Compare scripture with scripture. Compare a questionable scripture to other scriptures that use the same words or speak of the same concepts.
J. Understand that God uses allegories and parables to teach spiritual truth.
K. God uses the physical realm to teach about the spiritual realm.
L. God lives out of our linear time frame and looks at things from an eternal perspective.
M. The original text was not separated into chapter and verse. Many times one verse is directly related to, or part of, the verses before or after it. Many times they are connected by words such as “for” or “and”. (Furthermore for those more advanced in ancient manuscripts of scripture, much more weight should be placed on older copies of scripture then on more recent copies. (there is less chance for errors in copying)
P. The original text is written in several languages from several time periods and cultures. Hebrew writers think differently then those of us brought up in the modern world. Their writings also are effected by this difference. We must therefore understand how Hebrews thought and wrote. In the cases of the epistles, you must understand the culture and circumstances of the people to which the letter is written.
Q. In the case of seeming contradictions where one scripture says one thing and dozens say the opposite go with the preponderance of evidence. In other words side with the majority of clear scripture until the apposing scripture can be properly understood.
R. In the gospels Jesus uses a form of debate common among rabbis of that time. He would quote a portion of scripture and the Pharisees would know that He implied the entire context of that verse. In this manner he would allow them to see the conclusion he wanted them to see without pointing to it exactly. He led them to the truth without confrontation.

The biggest test for doctrine is very simple. Does the end result of following this doctrine bring you closer to understanding and becoming like Christ or take you further away from these goals.

I have saved the most important lesson of all for last.

BE LED OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

Prayerfully seek God’s guidance in understanding. The most important reason for study is to have our hearts and character molded to be like Jesus. We do not seek to have only head knowledge but a living truth that transforms lives.

As stated in the beginning, the purpose of the word is to guide us to become like Christ. This is the plan of God for mankind. Any conclusion must first and foremost function toward that plan and furthermore must not contradict the character or attributes of God.

January 27, 2008 at 6:25 pm#107436

Participant

Hi martian,
So we do need theology to find the Way?
And knowledge of the truth causes us to be reborn form above so then we can follow the Spirit?
No we must first seek the kingdom and that way is through the simplest knowledge and rebirth from above.

January 27, 2008 at 6:52 pm#107437

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2008,05:25)

I really wish you would read my posts and stop putting words in my mouth just to spark conversation.
I stated very clearly that we are to be led into truth by the Spirit, by reasoning with God and by experiancial understanding.

January 27, 2008 at 9:49 pm#107438

Participant

Hi martian,
How can you be led by the Spirit without first being reborn from above?
I believe it is a deceit to try to follow Jesus by imitation in our own strength.
That is the functional point I was making.

January 27, 2008 at 10:50 pm#107439