The Trinity Doctrine

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,18:32)

Mandy, I'm afraid that it is you that has the bias, you are reading “first death” into the statement. There are more than one kind of death, this is quite patent from reading the NT. The “God cannot die” quote is non-specific.

Isaiah, if you want to convince people that God can die, then that is your problem.

He is the God of the living, not the dead.

God dying? What doctrine will men come up with next?

[Proclaimer]

OK, the Trinitarians are back for another go.

Remember to just stick to the scripture and they will be put to flight.

[Son of Light]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,19:22)

Jesus was without sin. Therfore Jesus did not have to suffer the death of Adam. Jesus never suffered sickness or disease and would have lived in his natural state forever.

Where do you get this Idea from?

Adam and Eve were created mortal and dying. They weren't allowed to eat of the tree of life and thus prevented from GAINING IMMORTALITY.

There natural, first state WAS MORTAL!

[Proclaimer]

They became mortal after eating from the tree of Good and Evil, I thought.

[Son of Light]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 10 2008,21:17)

They became mortal after eating from the tree of Good and Evil, I thought.

Young's literal translation

Genesis 3
1And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, `Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'

2And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,

3and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'

4And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,

5for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it — your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

6And the woman seeth that the tree [is] good for food, and that it [is] pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make [one] wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;

7and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they [are] naked, and they sew fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.

8And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.

9And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?'

10and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'

11And He saith, `Who hath declared to thee that thou [art] naked? of the tree of which I have commanded thee not to eat, hast thou eaten?'

12and the man saith, `The woman whom Thou didst place with me — she hath given to me of the tree — and I do eat.'

13And Jehovah God saith to the woman, `What [is] this thou hast done?' and the woman saith, `The serpent hath caused me to forget — and I do eat.'

14And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, `Because thou hast done this, cursed [art] thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;

15and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee — the head, and thou dost bruise him — the heel.'

16Unto the woman He said, `Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow dost thou bear children, and toward thy husband [is] thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.'

17And to the man He said, `Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and dost eat of the tree concerning which I have charged thee, saying, Thou dost not eat of it, cursed [is] the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life,

18and thorn and bramble it doth bring forth to thee, and thou hast eaten the herb of the field;

19by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou [art], and unto dust thou turnest back.'

20And the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living.

21And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.

22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' —

23Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken;

24yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.

Open your eyes and dont let tradition tell you what you are reading.

We learn:

1. God said they would die THAT DAY. Dying thou doest die, in otherwords you are already dying but when you eat the fruit you will die that very day. You bring up a verse about the future coming of Christ and insert it into the genesis account 1000 years to a day verse. I can demonstrate more verses that say 40 years equals a day to God. This is just not very honest.

2. The serpent promised their eyes would be open and they would be like the Jehovah elohim knowing good and evil.

3. They ate the fruit and did not die THAT DAY. We learn they did indeed become like the elohim just as the serpent promised. In fact the serpent did not lie about ANYTHING AT ALL.

4. In anger the Jehovah gods kicks them out of the garden so that they cannont eat of the tree of life and live forever. Adam and Eve were not created immortal they were booted out of paradise so that they would not be able to eat and live forever. As if an omnipotent God had to worry about his creations rivaling him. Ah, but a fallen angel might have to worry. They where ALREADY DYING. They did not die because of eating of the tree of knowledge they where created in a state of mortality.

5. Adam used to walk with God in the cool of the day. What angel was he walking with? The angel who has to ask “Adam where are you? and what have you done?” not very omniscient either. Perhaps, an angel like the Cherub desribed in Ezekiel 28:

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [b] turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

[Son of Light]

I posted that originall here:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=200

Just so you know the context as i was responding to Nick.

[acertainchap]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 10 2008,21:17)

They became mortal after eating from the tree of Good and Evil, I thought.

Our soul became immortal after eating of it and our eyes opened to the knowledge of good and evil. Correct?

[kenrch]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? Hmmmm…that's an excellent question brother. Hebrews 1:3 would suggest there is not.

Does the Father bleed? Jesus was human, He bled and died then gave up the spirit, His human Spirit. This is what make us different from other creatures of God. We have a spirit of our own. IMHO

[martian]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,18:05)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:59) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? It was natural for Jesus to die.  It was in his nature to do so.   God cannot die.  It is not natural for him to die.  It is not in his nature to die. When you assert that God cannot die, which death are you referring to? There are more than one. I do not wish to go on a spinning teacup ride. When I refer to death I am referring to the death that the bible speaks of over and over again……finale! Capoot!  It's all over folks!  Nighty-night, then.  Sleep tight, don't let the bed-bugs bite. Paul, if words have any meaning at all, death has to mean what it means for you and me as it applies to Christ.

Your analogy of the spinning tea cup ride is very appropriate. It is the only way an indefinable devil’s doctrine can be defended. Unfortunately those that defend this doctrine must take on certain characteristics of the devil to even contemplate that defense.
The devil knows that he is a defeated foe and yet is so much the father of deception that he even deceives himself. Only when confronted by Jesus himself does he fess up to knowing who Jesus really is. (the son of Go0)
Those that are intellectual will deal in minute detail on the tenses of verbs ect to sidetrack the other into endless spinning and ignore the overall quagmire their teaching produces. Using bullet lists and proof texts and endless spinning they ignore the overall picture their endless chatter produces. They never consider if their results actually produce anything other then self perpetuating abstract phiposophies.
All of us take on attributes and characteristics of the enemy when we choose to defend his tactics. The Pharisees strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel. Much like those on here that will argue a jot or a title and miss the overall concept of Christ as our example , who must be like us in every way.
Those who support this doctrine but are not very well intellectualized in it’s philosophy will throw out nonsense like “God’s way are higher then our ways” and yet, have not a clue as to how God’s ways work.
—- or —–
One of my all time favorites “Just accept it by faith brother”. Even though they do not have a clue what faith really means. Faith is not believing that God (or anything else) exists. It is not even believing that God will do a work. These are abstract thoughts and not at all the way in which the Hebrews were taught by God. Faith is the action of working toward the will of God. It is an action word and not an abstract mental thought.
This is one of the many areas wherein the doctrine of the Trinity breaks down. Whatever is not of faith is sin. You cannot have real faith in the Trinity because it is not something you can work toward. It serves no definable purpose other then abstract philosophy. I call it mind chatter. Jesus as a complete human, like the rest of us, makes him a real definable, attainable, viable example for humanity. God in the Human Christ is a doctrine and a person we can have faith in because it is something we can actually work toward becoming. Everything he did then falls into possibility for us. (other then his mantle as the Messiah and being the only begotten son)
Christ having the nature of God or dual natured places his example into question. It places an unclear line between what he did as man and what he did as God. Nothing is clear cut. Everything becomes speculation and guesswork, even when scripture is so very clear that we are to follow him. This also brings into question the fairness of God. If God wants us to specifically follow Jesus’ example and yet that example is unclear , then God has become unfair. To whatever degree a teaching makes Jesus God to that same degree must they deny His being a fair example for us. He is the Christ. “Christ” means the anointed one. Man needs an anointing, God does not. To teach anything that detracts from the anointing of the human Christ is to teach against Christ and therefore teach the Anti-Christ.

The above is simple common sense. A Sense that is not so common among those that support the Trinity.
Years ago I read about a vision a brother had of a vortex like a tornado. If one stood in the eye (center) you were safe and gently feel into God’s heart. If you reached out to the spinning around you, you would be swept up into the vortex and carried away. Much like your spinning tea cup ride the defense of the Trinity is a maelstrom of dizzying abstract mind chatter that denies the foundational example of Christ to humanity.

[Jodi]

Some thoughts-

We are told that the flesh profits nothing, it is our mind, our spirit that is of value.

Our minds must overcome the ways of the world, and learn the ways of God.

Knowing this it just seems idiotic to believe that Jesus’ body, which holds NO profit, could actually pay for an entire world’s sins.

So if we are to think of the Father and Jesus as being of the same nature as humans are of equal nature, then truly what you have is NOT one God but three. Not only do we know that the Father is greater, but as well they have SEPARATE wills.

If God = three persons, but one of those person’s left their authority and became a human, needing all help and guidance from the Father, then the God as Trinitarians identify IT, did NOT exist while Jesus was on earth. This would also PROVE that the SON is then NOT needed in the Godhead because the Godhead was able to fully function as God while the Son was dependent!

Boy does this doctrine just keep looking stupider and stupider by the minute.

[martian]

Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Representation
the instrument used for engraving or carving
the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:
or stamped on, an impression
the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

Nature – Strong’s number 5287
a setting or placing under
thing put under, substructure, foundation
that which has foundation, is firm
that which has actual existence
a substance, real being
the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
confidence, firm trust, assurance

So Jesus is the image/facsimile/expression (logos) of the substance/courage/steadfastness/resolution/quality of God. (Image of God? Sure sounds like the rest of humanity to me)
It does not say he is the substance of God it says he represents or expresses the nature of God.

[martian]

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 11 2008,03:18)

Some thoughts- We are told that the flesh profits nothing, it is our mind, our spirit that is of value. Our minds must overcome the ways of the world, and learn the ways of God. Knowing this it just seems idiotic to believe that Jesus’ body, which holds NO profit, could actually pay for an entire world’s sins. So if we are to think of the Father and Jesus as being of the same nature as humans are of equal nature, then truly what you have is NOT one God but three. Not only do we know that the Father is greater, but as well they have SEPARATE wills. If God = three persons, but one of those person’s left their authority and became a human, needing all help and guidance from the Father, then the God as Trinitarians identify IT, did NOT exist while Jesus was on earth. This would also PROVE that the SON is then NOT needed in the Godhead because the Godhead was able to fully function as God while the Son was dependent! Boy does this doctrine just keep looking stupider and stupider by the minute.

YOU STOP THAT NOW!!!!!! No fair using common sense around here. Keep doing that and you will chase all the Trinitarians away. LOL

[martian]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,01:50)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? Hmmmm…that's an excellent question brother. Hebrews 1:3 would suggest there is not. Does the Father bleed?  Jesus was human, He bled and died then gave up the spirit, His human Spirit.  This is what make us different from other creatures of God.  We have a spirit of our own.  IMHO

Might I add that Jesus is temptable. That Jesus did not know everything.
That Jeus could fail. These are attributes of Humanity and not God.

[kenrch]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,03:52)

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,01:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? Hmmmm…that's an excellent question brother. Hebrews 1:3 would suggest there is not. Does the Father bleed? Jesus was human, He bled and died then gave up the spirit, His human Spirit. This is what make us different from other creatures of God. We have a spirit of our own. IMHO Might I add that Jesus is temptable. That Jesus did not know everything. That Jeus could fail. These are attributes of Humanity and not God.

Are not Trinitarians human? And sons of God?

[martian]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,04:00)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,03:52) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,01:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? Hmmmm…that's an excellent question brother. Hebrews 1:3 would suggest there is not. Does the Father bleed?  Jesus was human, He bled and died then gave up the spirit, His human Spirit.  This is what make us different from other creatures of God.  We have a spirit of our own.  IMHO Might I add that Jesus is temptable. That Jesus did not know everything. That Jeus could fail. These are attributes of Humanity and not God. Are not Trinitarians human?  And sons of God?

I do not understand the question. I thought you were comparing the attributes of God to those of man.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 11 2008,03:18)

Boy does this doctrine just keep looking stupider and stupider by the minute.

Another winning bottom line for the books.

[kenrch]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,04:10)

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,04:00) Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,03:52) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,01:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? Hmmmm…that's an excellent question brother. Hebrews 1:3 would suggest there is not. Does the Father bleed? Jesus was human, He bled and died then gave up the spirit, His human Spirit. This is what make us different from other creatures of God. We have a spirit of our own. IMHO Might I add that Jesus is temptable. That Jesus did not know everything. That Jeus could fail. These are attributes of Humanity and not God. Are not Trinitarians human? And sons of God? I do not understand the question. I thought you were comparing the attributes of God to those of man.

Quote

YOU STOP THAT NOW!!!!!! No fair using common sense around here. Keep doing that and you will chase all the Trinitarians away. LOL

[/QUOTE]

Sorry martin my response was to the above quote.

[martian]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,04:59)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,04:10) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,04:00) Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,03:52) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,01:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? Hmmmm…that's an excellent question brother. Hebrews 1:3 would suggest there is not. Does the Father bleed?  Jesus was human, He bled and died then gave up the spirit, His human Spirit.  This is what make us different from other creatures of God.  We have a spirit of our own.  IMHO Might I add that Jesus is temptable. That Jesus did not know everything. That Jeus could fail. These are attributes of Humanity and not God. Are not Trinitarians human?  And sons of God? I do not understand the question. I thought you were comparing the attributes of God to those of man. Quote YOU STOP THAT NOW!!!!!!  No fair using common sense around here.  Keep doing that and you will chase all the Trinitarians away.   LOL [/QUOTE] Sorry martin my response was to the above quote.

Still do not get the question. What do you mean?

[kenrch]

what I mean is why would you want to chase off children of God? They believe in Jesus.

I'm trying to look past the doctrines and at the heart.

[martian]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,05:52)

what I mean is why would you want to chase off children of God?  They believe in Jesus. I'm trying to look past the doctrines and at the heart.

Did you see the “LOL” afterwords. I was joking with the other poster that was using common sense to defeat the doctrine of the Trinity. You have completely missed the point of my post.
You ae taking it way to serious.

[Author]

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