The Trinity Doctrine

[kenrch]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,06:10)

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,05:52) what I mean is why would you want to chase off children of God? They believe in Jesus. I'm trying to look past the doctrines and at the heart. Did you see the “LOL” afterwords. I was joking with the other poster that was using common sense to defeat the doctrine of the Trinity. You have completely missed the point of my post. You ae taking it way to serious.

OK I hope I'm not the only one that did!

[Worshipping Jesus]

I hear all the chatter. But no one has scripturally addressed my post.

Jesus was without sin. Therfore Jesus did not have to suffer the death of Adam.

2 Cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jn 8:46
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?

Jn 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Jesus never suffered sickness or disease and would have lived in his natural state forever.

The soul that sinneth shall die.

The wages of sin is death.

It was not natural for Jesus to die for he did not just die he was killed!

His body and blood became the sacrifice for our sins, the perfect spotless sacrifice.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

When he “left his body” according to…

2 Cor 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Jam 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The scriptural definition of death is when our Spirit/soul leaves our bodys!

He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades…

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jesus said…

Jn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Notice John clarifys Jesus was speaking of his Body, this was not the Father speaking as some have suggested.

But he spake of the temple of his body.

If the Spirit of Jesus was dead he could not have fulfilled this scripture!

I hear all the chatter. But know one has scripturally addressed my post.

Please dont use man made logic without scripture.

No one has given me an answer to my questions?

The main one being…

Is there anything about the nature of Jesus that is not the same as the Father?

Tell me how if Jesus is the exact representation of his person, substance, essence, how he is different.

If you claim he is, then Heb 1:3 is not true. Because if he is different in nature then he cant be the “exact representation of his person, substance, essence”!

Then think about the ways the Father is unlike us and always will be as God.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Jesus is the Son of Mary.
He is the Son of David.
He is the Son of God.

God is none of these things.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,08:49)

Hi WJ, Jesus is the Son of Mary. He is the Son of David. He is the Son of God. God is none of these things.

NH

So Jesus is not like the Father in everyway?

Being a man means he is the image of God in the flesh.

Can you be more specific.

[NickHassan]

umm

[TimothyVI]

Hi WorshipppingJesus,

You said. “He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades…

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

I just wondered where you got center of the earth there. My pastor says that all of the time as well.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 11 2008,09:35)

Hi WorshipppingJesus, You said. “He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades… 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” I just wondered where you got center of the earth there. My pastor says that all of the time as well. Tim

Tim

Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Greek word for heart is…'kardia' which means;

of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate

This also ties in with this scripture…

Eph 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Tim notice that when Yeshua went to hades and preached leading those that were captive, he then ascended far above all heavens *that he might fill all things*

No mere man could fill all things.

[acertainchap]

Ephesians 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,08:38)

I hear all the chatter. But know one has scripturally addressed my post. Please dont use man made logic without scripture. No one has given me an answer to my questions? The main one being… Is there anything about the nature of Jesus that is not the same as the Father? Tell me how if Jesus is the exact representation of his person, substance, essence, how he is different. If you claim he is, then Heb 1:3 is not true. Because if he is different in nature then he cant be the “exact representation of his person, substance, essence”! Then think about the ways the Father is unlike us and always will be as God.

Of course you ignore the definition of “representation”.
Even after I posted it.

Representation
the instrument used for engraving or carving
the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:
or stamped on, an impression
the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original.

If you truly believe these things are the same as the original, I would like to sell you some reproduction antiques at the same price as the originals.
GET A CLUE! The nonsense chatter is still coming from you!

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,09:51)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 11 2008,09:35) Hi WorshipppingJesus, You said. “He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades… 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” I just wondered where you got center of the earth there. My pastor says that all of the time as well. Tim Tim Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Greek word for heart is…'kardia' which means; of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate This also ties in with this scripture… Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Tim notice that when Yeshua went to hades and preached leading those that were captive, he then ascended far above all heavens *that he might fill all things* No mere man could fill all things.

You keep saying that no mere man could do the things that Christ did and yet so far as I see your examples are all after Christ is resurected. Do you know what power or abilities Christ has after His resurection? Even while on the Earth He was given all authority in Heaven and Earth. How much more can he have after He has fullfilled His calling.

You downgrade “all authority in Heaven and Earth”. In addition you make assumptions on what giftings, authorities or capabilities Christ has when He sits on the right hand of authority.

This is not about the nature of Christ. This is about the authority of Christ both on Earth and in Heaven. Of course that authority has been different. That does not make Him God that makes Him a man that was anointed and apointed by God to be the Messiah and carry the authority of that calling. It makes Him the Christ. The anointed one.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,09:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,08:38) I hear all the chatter. But know one has scripturally addressed my post. Please dont use man made logic without scripture. No one has given me an answer to my questions? The main one being… Is there anything about the nature of Jesus that is not the same as the Father? Tell me how if Jesus is the exact representation of his person, substance, essence, how he is different. If you claim he is, then Heb 1:3 is not true. Because if he is different in nature then he cant be the “exact representation of his person, substance, essence”! Then think about the ways the Father is unlike us and always will be as God. Of course you  ignore the definition of “representation”. Even after I posted it. Representation the instrument used for engraving or carving the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13: or stamped on, an impression the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original. If you truly believe these things are the same as the original, I would like to sell you some reproduction antiques at the same price as the originals. GET A CLUE! The nonsense chatter is still coming from you!

martian

You say…

Quote

So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original.

We are not just talking about an image here. We are talking about the very essence and substance of what makes God, God.

Look at the definition…

precise reproduction in every respect,

If Jesus is not like the Father in every way then he could not be the exact expression of the Father.

In fact he could not be the “Image of the invisible God”, God in the flesh revealing himself to mankind. Col 1:15

You are getting the identity of the Father and the Son mixed up with their nature.

You are 100% human in substance as your Father.

So the chatter of human logic trying to bring Jesus down to a mere man goes on.

You didnt answer any of my questions!

How is Jesus any different than the Father in nature?

 

[kenrch]

Jesus has the same Spirit therefore the same nature as the Father.
We too have a “TASTE” of God's nature His Spirit.

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,09:51)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 11 2008,09:35) Hi WorshipppingJesus, You said. “He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades… 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” I just wondered where you got center of the earth there. My pastor says that all of the time as well. Tim Tim Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Greek word for heart is…'kardia' which means; of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate This also ties in with this scripture… Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Tim notice that when Yeshua went to hades and preached leading those that were captive, he then ascended far above all heavens *that he might fill all things* No mere man could fill all things.

Go ahead WJ. Stick to your Western Philosophical interpretation of English scriptures. You make the false assumption that it is literally the person of Jesus that becomes omnipresent to fill all things.

The actual definition of “fill” in Eph 4:10 is as follows –

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment

WELL WELL, Did Christ cause there to be abundance for us? Did He carry through to the end? Did He bring things to pass? Did He accomplish and ratify His calling?
IN ALL THINGS DID HE CAUSE GOD’S WILL TO BE OBEYED AND GOD’S PROMISES TO BE FULFILLED?

Again it has nothing to do with Christ’s presence fulfilling all things as in a geographical way. It is about Christ fulfilling His calling as the Messiah and completing His work to perfect the Church.
In fact the entire context is about perfecting the church.

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,10:25)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,09:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,08:38) I hear all the chatter. But know one has scripturally addressed my post. Please dont use man made logic without scripture. No one has given me an answer to my questions? The main one being… Is there anything about the nature of Jesus that is not the same as the Father? Tell me how if Jesus is the exact representation of his person, substance, essence, how he is different. If you claim he is, then Heb 1:3 is not true. Because if he is different in nature then he cant be the “exact representation of his person, substance, essence”! Then think about the ways the Father is unlike us and always will be as God. Of course you  ignore the definition of “representation”. Even after I posted it. Representation the instrument used for engraving or carving the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13: or stamped on, an impression the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original. If you truly believe these things are the same as the original, I would like to sell you some reproduction antiques at the same price as the originals. GET A CLUE! The nonsense chatter is still coming from you! martian You say… Quote So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original. We are not just talking about an image here. We are talking about the very essence and substance of what makes God, God. Look at the definition… precise reproduction in every respect, If Jesus is not like the Father in every way then he could not be the exact expression of the Father. In fact he could not be the “Image of the invisible God”, God in the flesh revealing himself to mankind. Col 1:15 You are getting the identity of the Father and the Son mixed up with their nature. You are 100% human in substance as your Father. So the chatter of human logic trying to bring Jesus down to a mere man goes on. You didnt answer any of my questions! How is Jesus any different than the Father in nature?

First define nature and then show me one scripture where it says Christ is the same nature as YHWH.

[martian]

You accuse me of using man made stuff. You are the one that continually spewed out the definitions of Bible Dictionaries and Lexicons. I give you the definition of representation from A Greek Lexicon and you call it man made logic. You are showing pure situational ethics. You are willing to use the experts when they support your theories and ignore them when they do not.

Saying a reproduction is the same as the original is irrational.

My time for playing this game is up for tonight.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,10:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,09:51) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 11 2008,09:35) Hi WorshipppingJesus, You said. “He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades… 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” I just wondered where you got center of the earth there. My pastor says that all of the time as well. Tim Tim Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Greek word for heart is…'kardia' which means; of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate This also ties in with this scripture… Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Tim notice that when Yeshua went to hades and preached leading those that were captive, he then ascended far above all heavens *that he might fill all things* No mere man could fill all things. Go ahead WJ. Stick to your Western Philosophical interpretation of English scriptures. You make the false assumption that it is literally the person of Jesus that becomes omnipresent to fill all things. The actual definition of “fill” in Eph 4:10 is as follows – to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally I abound, I am liberally supplied to render full, i.e. to complete to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim to consummate: a number to make complete in every particular, to render perfect to carry through to the end, to accomplish, to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise of matters of duty: to perform, execute of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment WELL WELL,  Did Christ cause there to be abundance for us? Did He carry through to the end? Did He bring things to pass? Did He accomplish and ratify His calling? IN ALL THINGS DID HE CAUSE GOD’S WILL TO BE OBEYED AND GOD’S PROMISES TO BE FULFILLED? Again it has nothing to do with Christ’s presence fulfilling all things as in a geographical way.  It is about Christ fulfilling His calling as the Messiah and completing His work to perfect the Church. In fact the entire context is about perfecting the church.

martian

You say…

Quote

Go ahead WJ. Stick to your Western Philosophical interpretation of English scriptures. You make the false assumption that it is literally the person of Jesus that becomes omnipresent to fill all things.

Eph 1:23
which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Col 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Math 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

(Bearing the worlds cares and burdens all at the same time wherever they go)

Matt 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Jesus with every believer all at the same time, wherever they go. Notice it says “I am with you”.)

Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

(The Father and the Son living with the believers all at the same time, wherever they go)

Tell me martian, how can Jesus fulfill all those scriptures above if he is a mere man and not omnipresent like the Father?

Yes Jesus litterally does walk with us and live in us…

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Do you think the letters of Paul were written to unbelievers?
Do you think Jesus promised to be with all men?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,10:54)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,10:25) Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,09:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,08:38) I hear all the chatter. But know one has scripturally addressed my post. Please dont use man made logic without scripture. No one has given me an answer to my questions? The main one being… Is there anything about the nature of Jesus that is not the same as the Father? Tell me how if Jesus is the exact representation of his person, substance, essence, how he is different. If you claim he is, then Heb 1:3 is not true. Because if he is different in nature then he cant be the “exact representation of his person, substance, essence”! Then think about the ways the Father is unlike us and always will be as God. Of course you  ignore the definition of “representation”. Even after I posted it. Representation the instrument used for engraving or carving the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13: or stamped on, an impression the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original. If you truly believe these things are the same as the original, I would like to sell you some reproduction antiques at the same price as the originals. GET A CLUE! The nonsense chatter is still coming from you! martian You say… Quote So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original. We are not just talking about an image here. We are talking about the very essence and substance of what makes God, God. Look at the definition… precise reproduction in every respect, If Jesus is not like the Father in every way then he could not be the exact expression of the Father. In fact he could not be the “Image of the invisible God”, God in the flesh revealing himself to mankind. Col 1:15 You are getting the identity of the Father and the Son mixed up with their nature. You are 100% human in substance as your Father. So the chatter of human logic trying to bring Jesus down to a mere man goes on. You didnt answer any of my questions! How is Jesus any different than the Father in nature? First define nature and then show me one scripture where it says Christ is the same nature as YHWH.

martian

You say…

Quote

First define nature and then show me one scripture where it says Christ is the same nature as YHWH.

Nature…
1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence

Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Substance, Essence), and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

I have answered your question. Stop evading mine.

How is Jesus any different than the Father in nature?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Jesus is a man.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,11:37)

Hi WJ, Do you think the letters of Paul were written to unbelievers? Do you think Jesus promised to be with all men?

NH

What does your question have to do with Jesus filling all things and upholding all things by the word of his power.

What does your question have to do with “By him all things consist”?

[Author]

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