The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ and mrs,
Here is is
Eph 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

So Paul pleads for unity among those
reborn into the Body of Christ and enlivened by the Spirit of Christ

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Jesus is their Lord in whom they placed their faith and into whom they were baptised.

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

One God who is above all, the God of Jesus.
God, Who is in us all in Christ, as Spirit.

[IM4Truth]

W.J. Your claim that Jesus is the Father of all is ridiculous. You are not reading this scripture at all the right way.

It says :” There is one body and one Spirit, just as you are called in one hope of your calling.
verse 5 ” ONE LORD(JESUS) ONE FAITH,ONE BAPTISM,
VERSE 6 ” ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH ALL, IN IN YOU ALL.

JESUS IS NOT OUR FATHER. JEHOVAH IS OUR FATHER AND HE IS AVOVE ALL.
JOHN 14: 28 SAYS THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I……

John 14:10… The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority: But the Father that dwells in me does the work. That too shows that the Father is greater.

W.J. This is the proof that I am talking about.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[acertainchap]

I believe that these Scriptural verses disprove the trinity. Do with them what you will.

Ephesians 1

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace.

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

Ephesians 1: 18-23 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

[PaulCruice]

Hi folk,
Just want to add a short comment which I believe will help solve many of the issues surrounding the word GOD. Most of us in the English speaking world refer to the Almighty as just “God”, be we Trinitarian believers or not. For example, in English we don't say, The Son of THE God (as the Greek would have it). Rather we would just say, The Son of God. This is somewhat unfortunate because our English word “God” which is used to translate the Greek word “theos”, generally does not like taking the definite article like theos does in the Greek. A far better word to use to translate theos is the word “deity” which in English can take the definite article without straining our grammatical thinking. A very good example of this is John 1.1 where we have the use of both theos with the article and theos without the article. If we use the word deity to translate theos many problems go away. Thus it would read: IN BEGINNING THE LOGOS WAS WITH THE DEITY AND THE LOGOS WAS DEITY. (I have deliberately put all this in upper case since the original Greek draws no distinction between upper and lower case.)
Now I say all this to draw our attention to the difference between deity and the deity. Deity (theos) is a grouping of beings having certain common characteristics and the word deity refers to those characteristics. THE Deity (ho theos), however, is just one of all those beings. As Paul writes in 1Cor 8, there are many deities and many lords but as for us one is deity, the Father….
Thus the Greek so often refers to the Father as “Father Deity” meaning the one who fathers all deity.
Hope these thoughts help.
Grace to all.

[NickHassan]

Hi and welcome pc,
Is this trinity God taught in your bible?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (PaulCruice @ Jan. 10 2008,07:31)

Hi folk, Just want to add a short comment which I believe will help solve many of the issues surrounding the word GOD. Most of us in the English speaking world refer to the Almighty as just “God”, be we Trinitarian believers or not. For example, in English we don't say, The Son of THE God (as the Greek would have it). Rather we would just say, The Son of God. This is somewhat unfortunate because our English word “God” which is used to translate the Greek word “theos”, generally does not like taking the definite article like theos does in the Greek. A far better word to use to translate theos is the word “deity” which in English can take the definite article without straining our grammatical thinking. A very good example of this is John 1.1 where we have the use of both theos with the article and theos without the article. If we use the word deity to translate theos many problems go away. Thus it would read: IN BEGINNING THE LOGOS WAS WITH THE DEITY AND THE LOGOS WAS DEITY. (I have deliberately put all this in upper case since the original Greek draws no distinction between upper and lower case.) Now I say all this to draw our attention to the difference between deity and the deity. Deity (theos) is a grouping of beings having certain common characteristics and the word deity refers to those characteristics. THE Deity (ho theos), however, is just one of all those beings. As Paul writes in 1Cor 8, there are many deities and many lords but as for us one is deity, the Father…. Thus the Greek so often refers to the Father as “Father Deity” meaning the one who fathers all deity. Hope these thoughts help. Grace to all.

Hi PaulCruice.

Thanks for your post.

I take it that you are saying that only the Father is the Theos, whereas other theos's do not have the article because the reference is used as a quality and not to identify.

E.g., The Father is THE Theos and Christ, judges, angels, etc are theos.

Other examples:
“The Devil” identifies and “devil” qualifies.
Or “The Adam” identifies and “adam” qualifies.

[Jodi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2008,17:16)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Jan. 08 2008,12:02) W.J. Are you going to answer my Question, I see you here? Ephesians 4:4-6 The Father is greater then. And other sciptures that say that the Father is greater. mrs Here it is again… Quote (IM4Truth @ Jan. 08 2008,07:19) W.J. I do not know how many time that i asked you about Ephesians 4:4-6 ….God the Father who is above all…. Which makes the trinity wrong according to this scripture. How do you explain that? Preace and Love Mrs. mrs Do you even read my post? Again, I have responded to your ambiguous interpretation of Eph 4. Its in the trinity thread. Page 956 Why dont you take what I have written there concerning those scriptures and show me where I am in error?

So one thing I was reading from your post on that page WJ, is that the trinity represents three person's but with one nature. Therefore, the Father can be greater then the Son, but they are equal in that they have the same NATURE?

So the fact that Jesus also has the nature of a human, still makes his nature the SAME as the Father's and still makes it equal to that of the Father's? Really how can this be so?

Jesus is fully human but yet equal to God in nature? We are fully human, so then wouldn't that make us equals with Jesus on the same level that he is equal to the Father? So then, if I am equal with Jesus and Jesus is equal to God, then isn't the trinity saying that I too am equal with God?

Seriously WJ how can you stand behind a doctrine that seems to be so blatantly absurd?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 10 2008,15:49)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2008,17:16) Quote (IM4Truth @ Jan. 08 2008,12:02) W.J. Are you going to answer my Question, I see you here? Ephesians 4:4-6   The Father is greater then. And other sciptures that say that the Father is greater. mrs Here it is again… Quote (IM4Truth @ Jan. 08 2008,07:19) W.J.  I do not know how many time that i asked you about Ephesians 4:4-6 ….God the Father who is above all…. Which makes the trinity wrong according to this scripture. How do you explain that? Preace and Love Mrs. mrs Do you even read my post? Again, I have responded to your ambiguous interpretation of Eph 4. Its in the trinity thread. Page 956 Why dont you take what I have written there concerning those scriptures and show me where I am in error? So one thing I was reading from your post on that page WJ, is that the trinity represents three person's but with one nature. Therefore, the Father can be greater then the Son, but they are equal in that they have the same NATURE? So the fact that Jesus also has the nature of a human, still makes his nature the SAME as the Father's and still makes it equal to that of the Father's? Really how can this be so? Jesus is fully human but yet equal to God in nature? We are fully human, so then wouldn't that make us equals with Jesus on the same level that he is equal to the Father? So then, if I am equal with Jesus and Jesus is equal to God, then isn't the trinity saying that I too am equal with God? Seriously WJ how can you stand behind a doctrine that seems to be so blatantly absurd?

Jodi

You say…

Quote

So the fact that Jesus also has the nature of a human, still makes his nature the SAME as the Father's and still makes it equal to that of the Father's? Really how can this be so?

Was Jesus flesh only?

When you die the scriptures say your Spirit will either be with God or go to the center of the earth where Jesus went after his heart quit pumping.

2 Cor 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Jam 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Jesus the Word that was with God and was God came in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh.

He took on the nature of man by tabernacleing among us without diminishing his nature as God in Spirit.

Jn 1:1, 1:14, Phil 2:6-8, Rom 8:3, 1 Tim 3:16. 1 Jn 1:1,2

Jesus said he was the resurrection and the life. He was not speaking of his human tent.

How could Jesus Spirit die, the Word, that was with God who is the Eternal life that was with the Father from Eternity?

So it is a false claim that Trinitarianism cant be true because God cannot die. God did not die.

Jesus offered his body as a living sacrifice for the sin of the world.

Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Because the Word said “Lo I come to do thy will” and he did it and only he could, the Father says…

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Once again Jesus returned to the right hand of the Father, not under him, nor above him, nor in his hand, but at his right hand as the Word that Was with God and is God.

Now the Father and Son and the Spirit is drawing all men unto himself.

If Jesus is merely a human spirit then these words could not apply to him…

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of Jesus? Which is it?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Matt 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

No mere man can be omnipresent.

And Jesus does not telepath through the Fathers Spirit. He is very present and real in the life of every born again believer.

Tell me Jodi, when God speaks to you is it the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Do you know the difference. If you say the Lord said this or that, do you mean the Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

If you say he speaks through Jesus then you should say “They just spoke to me”.

Jodi. Can you tell me one attribute that the Father has that Jesus does not have?

Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father?

Blessings!

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47)

Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father?

It was natural for Jesus to die.  It was in his nature to do so.  

God cannot die.  It is not natural for him to die.  It is not in his nature to die.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47)

Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father?

Hmmmm…that's an excellent question brother. Hebrews 1:3 would suggest there is not.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? It was natural for Jesus to die.  It was in his nature to do so.   God cannot die.  It is not natural for him to die.  It is not in his nature to die.

When you assert that God cannot die, which death are you referring to? There are more than one.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:59)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? It was natural for Jesus to die.  It was in his nature to do so.   God cannot die.  It is not natural for him to die.  It is not in his nature to die. When you assert that God cannot die, which death are you referring to? There are more than one.

I do not wish to go on a spinning teacup ride.

When I refer to death I am referring to the death that the bible speaks of over and over again……finale! Capoot! It's all over folks! Nighty-night, then. Sleep tight, don't let the bed-bugs bite.

Paul, if words have any meaning at all, death has to mean what it means for you and me as it applies to Christ.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,18:05)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:59) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? It was natural for Jesus to die.  It was in his nature to do so.   God cannot die.  It is not natural for him to die.  It is not in his nature to die. When you assert that God cannot die, which death are you referring to? There are more than one. I do not wish to go on a spinning teacup ride. When I refer to death I am referring to the death that the bible speaks of over and over again……finale! Capoot!  It's all over folks!  Nighty-night, then.  Sleep tight, don't let the bed-bugs bite. Paul, if words have any meaning at all, death has to mean what it means for you and me as it applies to Christ.

Mandy, the NT speaks of several types of death…the first death, the second death, spiritual death. Which one applies to God in your statement. I'm not being semantic for the sake of it, i'm going somewhere with this.

[Not3in1]

If we are speaking of a nature that is shared by both God and Jesus, and we are talking about a singular difference between the two persons and their natures…………physical death as experienced by Jesus (dead 3 days) is what I am referring to.

[Is 1:18]

Mandy, you specified the type of death God cannot suffer, but the Bible does not. Maybe the Bible writer was referring to the second death when he stated that God cannot die, and it is entirely concievable that God can indeed take the form of a bond servant and suffer the “first” (i.e. physical) death.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2008,18:19)

Mandy, you specified the type of death God cannot suffer, but the Bible does not. Maybe the Bible writer was referring to the second death when he stated that God cannot die, and it is entirely concievable that God can indeed take the form of a bond servant and suffer the “first” (i.e. physical) death.

It is written that God cannot die.
It is written that Jesus did die.

It is not written that death is measured by various rulers. Physical death is physical death. The bible refers to the prophets as “sleeping”, meaning, they are dead. They no longer existed on this earth. This is the type of death that is the measure of the word itself (typically). And if we do not use the typical ruler for such words, the implications are open for manipulation – as I believe you are doing to fit your bias.

Dead – not breathing or alive. Jesus experienced this. God cannot. If God did warp into human body to experience this then he is a liar! How can he be trusted?

[Is 1:18]

Mandy, I'm afraid that it is you that has the bias, you are reading “first death” into the statement. There are more than one kind of death, this is quite patent from reading the NT. The “God cannot die” quote is non-specific.

[Not3in1]

The “God cannot die” scripture is found in the OT. What other death is spoken about in the OT?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 10 2008,17:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,17:47) Can you name one thing about the nature of Jesus that is different from the Father? It was natural for Jesus to die.  It was in his nature to do so.   God cannot die.  It is not natural for him to die.  It is not in his nature to die.

not3

Jesus was without sin. Therfore Jesus did not have to suffer the death of Adam.

Jesus never suffered sickness or disease and would have lived in his natural state forever.

It was not natural for Jesus to die for he did not just die he was killed!

When he “left his body” according to…

2 Cor 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Jam 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The scriptural definition of death is when our Spirit/soul leaves our bodys!

He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades…

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jesus said…

Jn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Notice John clarifys Jesus was speaking of his Body, this was not the Father speaking as some have suggested.

But he spake of the temple of his body.

If the Spirit of Jesus was dead he could not have fulfilled this scripture!

Blessings! Good to see you!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2008,19:22)

Jesus was without sin. Therfore Jesus did not have to suffer the death of Adam. Jesus never suffered sickness or disease and would have lived in his natural state forever.

You mean as his own being?

[Author]

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