The Trinity Doctrine

This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by Keith.

Viewing 20 posts - 10,681 through 10,700 (of 18,302 total)

←1 2 3…534535536…914 915 916 →

Author
Posts

December 14, 2007 at 8:29 am#74821

Proclaimer

Participant

The Trinity doctrine is the invention of men and probably a doctrine of demons.
Wake up.

December 14, 2007 at 10:20 am#74829

IM4Truth

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 14 2007,19:29)

The Trinity doctrine is the invention of men and probably a doctrine of demons.
Wake up.

W.J. How ironic, three people have told you know to wake up, are you going to or are you again ignore those scripturees that prove that the trinity is wrong?

Peace and Love Mrs.

December 14, 2007 at 1:42 pm#74832

kenrch

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 14 2007,12:04)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 14 2007,11:45)

Hi WJ,
You really need to know our God.
Then your confusion with His Son and His Spirit would disipate.

No. I dont bow down worship and serve a mere man calling him Lord and Master.

You cant serve 2 masters.

Tell me NH… When the Holy Spirit speaks to you is it Jesus or is it the Father?

Can you tell the difference?

When you say I am obeying God and his voice is it Yeshua or the Father or the Holy Spirit speaking to you?

Or when God speaks to you, have you ever said Yeshua didnt say it, the Father did?

When yoiu say God is doing this or that is it the Father you are speaking of, or is it Yeshua?

When you tell someone the Lord spoke to you, which “Lord” are you speaking of?

Can you give me an example where the Father exclusively Spoke to you apart from the Son or Holy Spirit.

Is there any example of disparity among the Godhead?

Men accuse Trinitarians of God being a “them”.

But how many “thems” do you listen to, and how do you know the difference?

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

December 14, 2007 at 3:29 pm#74842

martian

Participant

The one ting God cannot do is stop being God. God is immutable and does not change. If you make God change into a man/Christ then you violate the very nature of God. This is impossible. If Christ is a God, then his example toward us is false since we cannot in any way become like Him.
No matter what scriptures a person uses to attempt to prove the Trinity the conclussion cannot violate this simple plan of God. Jesus is our example and we are to follow in His fuutsteps. From the way he ministered to the way He was raised from the dead. Not a partial example but complete.

December 14, 2007 at 3:56 pm#74843

martian

Participant

Chapter 7

Jesus Came in the flesh.

When the Hebrews spoke of the flesh, they were speaking of the natural, physical, material realm in which we live. The Hebrews did not see the flesh as evil but as part of he kingdom of God even as the spiritual realm. They saw no separation into good or bad concerning the spiritual realm and the physical natural realm. When they spoke of something coming in the flesh, they were speaking of it being of the same nature as the rest of the natural realm. It’s nature being one of the natural, physical, material, Earthly realm. It was later that the world of Greek Philosophy redefined “flesh”.

Paul often speaks of the flesh. In Philippians 1 verses 19 through 28, we see Paul again using the term “flesh” refering to his life/death in the material/physical realm. this was not an admonition concerning good or bad behaviour, but a simple statement concerning his presence in the “flesh” compared to his presence with Christ after death.

19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,

26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Both Paul and John speak very strongly about Christ coming according to the flesh and being in the flesh.

Gnosticism and dualism would deny Jesus coming in the natural flesh because of their philosophy that the natural, physical realm is evil. They qualify his nature to avoid the conclusion that Jesus could be of the lower evil realm. They teach a mystical, spiritual Jesus wrapped in a shell of flesh or 100% God and 100% man unlike the rest of humanity. In the case of Jesus coming according to the flesh, this truth clearly speaks of Jesus being of the same nature and makeup as the rest of humanity.

There are, of course, some diferences between Jesus and the rest of humanity, but none effect his nature or makeup
1. He is the “only begotten son of God” Begotten meaning born.(like the rest of humanity)
2. He is direct heir to the thrown of God.
3. He lived a perfect sinless life.
4. He is the messiah, the Christ.
5. He holds a position in heaven, being the heir, the Christ, and first one to complete God’s plan, that no other human will ever hold.
6. He is the only pattern for the rest of mankind to follow.

Here are just a few of the scriptures that clearly show Jesus is a complete human.

Romans 1/3
concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, (here we see his linage as being human., on his mother’s side from the line of David, and according to the flesh, his nature being in keeping with the rest of natural man.)

Romans 9 Verse 3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, ( Paul explains that his brethren are his kinsmen because they come according to the flesh as he does. (flesh= coming in the natural physical realm. His nature and makeup was human. The building blocks that came together at his conception were human)

4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (Here Jesus is described as coming from the fathers according to the flesh. In other words of the same makeup and nature that Paul clarified earlier.)

Hebrews 2
9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12
saying,
“I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”
13
And again,
“I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM “
And again,
“BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.”
14
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15
and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Notice the very specific things said in this section of scripture —
Verse 9 – Jesus called son of man. Jesus made lower then the angels. (this does not say he was lowered from a higher position, but that his make up was that of being lower then the angels) Crowned with glory and honor because of his suffering and tasted death. A God does not need to be crowned with glory. A God cannot suffer and die. All of these apply to humanity not a God. Scripture states very clearly that it was the man’s death on the cross and not a God’s.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (Notice scripture makes a point to show Jesus as a man)
Verse 10 – He was perfected by what he suffered. Jesus was born sinless and immature like all other men and like all other men needed to be perfected through suffering. His work brings MANY sons to glory – US -!
Luke 2:52 “And Jesus grew both in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with God.” (Obviously he was not born a perfected God/man.)
Verse 11 – They come from the same Father and for this reason Jesus calls them (humanity) brethren. (All humanity are sons of one God including Jesus.)
Verse 12 and 13 – Jesus again calls us his brethren
Verse 14 – Jesus shares the same attributes of flesh and blood. Jesus fulfills prophecy of Eve’s seed. Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Verse 15 He is fulfilling his calling of being an example. His death is an example because he is completely human.
Verse 16 – Again pointing to his linage as a descendent of Abraham. His ancestors were human. A God does not need heed help from another person of God, but a human, decended from Abraham does need it.
Verse 17 – Made like his brethren in ALL THINGS. Not in everything except his nature, but all things! Everything about Jesus was like his brethren. No qualifications or added concepts. Since it is clear that
Jesus is in the line of David through Mary, Her DNA must have been present. Jesus calls her mother indicating that She was the source, of the egg, 1/2 of his makeup.
We know that God is His father, therefore in order to not break this previous verse that he was like his brethren in EVERY WAY God must have created a human sperm to fertilize Mary’s egg.

But isn’t Jesus called Lord?
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”

( in most translations there are two distinct ways in which Lord is translated. LORD (all capitols) in the OT is Yahweh the name of God usually associated with His personal name. Lord with only the ” L” capitalised in the NT comes from the Greek word kurios. It means master or one in authority. It is not a name for God. Notice that God made him Lord or master over all the earth. This is not a title he has because he is a God, but one awarded him by Yahweh.)

Prophecy foretold of Jesus being like his brethren –
Deut 18/15 (Moses is speaking of Jesus )
The LORD (Yahweh) your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Verse 18 – 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Verse 19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
(Jesus is a prophet, a human calling. This clearly explains how he could speak first person from the Father) (John 8/40, Acts 7/37, Mat 13/57)

Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan for man —

Jesus was the example for humanity having the fullness of God dwelling in them and becoming like Christ to the full extant.
Christ —
Colossians 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
The rest of humanity —
Ephesians 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (How do we measure up to the full stature of Christ? By becoming mature men. This comparison is invalid unless Christ is a man.)

Jesus is called Emanuael which means God is with us. Truthfully God is with us in the person of the Human Jesus Christ. He is the perfect revealing of the Father in a Human. He is one with his Father who is a spirit. He is Spirit filled to the fullest extant. Even today, men who have good and deep relationship with God reveal God to those around them by their actions and life. From their very being comes a revelation of the goodness of the God that dwells in them. To what ever extant they reveal God to that same extant do we have God with us in their presence.
Jesus is called the “Everlasting Father” because the Father (Yahweh) is revealed in him. Even as Moses bowed before the burning bush and called it God. The bush was not God but Moses recognised a physical revealing of Yahweh in the natural realm residing within the bush. So thomas could look at Jesus and call Him Lord (master in authority) and God (Yahweh indwelling and being revealed in the man Jesus)

Jesus is again compared to Adam
Gen 3-

4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!

5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Adam and Eve seeing the fruit was good to eat, set out to meet their own needs. They had freedom to choose and chose to be as God’s deciding for themselves what was right and wrong for them. They chose to make themselves equal with God! They partook of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now we see, in comparison, Jesus and how he acted ——————–

Philippines 2

Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,

2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The preceding verses are not about the Godhead, but rather about becoming like Christ.
——– Jesus was in the form of God. Created in the image and likeness of God like all other men. He was a complete man in his makeup. Yet Jesus never partook of the knowledge of Good and Evil, therefore had the ability to have the fullness of God dwelling in him. Paul is specific in his use of the word “form”. If he had wanted to say Jesus was a God he could have simply said Jesus was a God! He acted in complete agreement with His Father’s characteristics and therefore had a form of God. When Jesus appeared, he appeared as a man. This was not what the Jews expected. They expected a great sign and wonder and got instead a man in appearance and make up.

Jesus knew who he was. He knew he was the heir to the thrown of God and a son of God with full authority of the Father given to Him. Even with this knowledge and power, Jesus did not seek equality with God and did not use his freedom or power to meet his own needs. Satan tempted him in this very area. “Make the stones into bread”. Most of us would have opened a bakery, yet Jesus refused to use his authority to meet his own needs. Instead he poured out his needs and desires even unto death for the benefit of his brethren and the glory of God. He even said (based on his authority) he could call down 10 legions of angels, but refused to use his power, authority or rights in opposition to the will of God. For this reason was he exalted. He was not exalted into his own glory but to the glory of the Father. Though he had all authority in heaven and earth and exercised a form of God he did not use it for his own needs or even to save himself. (First Adam compared to last Adam- Man compared to Man)
John 5/19 …. Truly, truly I say to you. the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son does in like manner…..
John 5/30…. I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me…….. He never claimed to have his own power in heaven and earth. He said it was given to Him.
Matthew 11/27… My Father has handed over everything to me…. This means the power Jesus exhibited was not his, but the Father’s.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from t
he dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Again Christ resurrection is an example and a first fruit because of his humanity. The first to complete God’s plan for man.

Jesus rebukes the Jewish teachers for not being like Him. It must be understood that when Jesus talked to the leaders he only need quote a small portion of the Old Testament and they would immediately understand it’s context in whole. This was a common tactic amongst Rabbi’s in debating with others. Jesus further traps the Pharasees in their own words and uses their own proclimation that the word cannot be broken. Here Jesus quotes Psalm 82 in part, but the implication of the context is clear to the Jews.

In this portion of scripture Jesus Himself shows that God expects us all to be Gods in the way we deal with our brothers. We are all to be in the form of God in our lives and actions.

John 10

23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Notice Jesus is very specific as to who the deity is that dwells in him)

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Psalm 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7″Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.

— Remember that the Hebrews wrote and taught in concrete alegorical ways. In Psalm 82- Yahweh calls them sons (humanity) of the Most High God. In John 10 Jesus quotes this verse. Again rebuking the pharasees because they are not Gods in their fulfilling of His character toward their fellow men. They did not have a form of God as Jesus did, because they did not have the character of God toward their brethren. Jesus compares their character and their actions to those of God that are revealed in Himself. He shows that in his character and actions toward his brethren he and his Father are one! The fact that Jesus states He and His Father are one is not proof of a triune God or else He could not pray as he does in John Chapter 17. Notice very clearly that Jesus prays that we are to be one with Yahweh and Himself in the same manner as He and Yahweh are one.
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
( His purpose to glorify the Father not himself)

2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
(Authority over all flesh? Humanity! His power was not his own but was given him by the father)

3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(Jesus Christ who came at the fathers will not his own.)

4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
(Jesus glorified the Father and accomplished the Father’s will. His own will was in submission to His Father.)

5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(Jesus had glory set aside for him from the beginning of time. Just as the plan of God was with God from the beginning, so were the rewards of the fulfillment. — notice it does not say Jesus was with him from the beginning, but that the glory for Jesus was with God.)

6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
(Jesus again gives the credit to the Father for the men he has ministered to.)

7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
(Again Jesus does not claim to have possesedthe knowledge, but gave credit to the Father)

8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that they came forth from You, and they believed thatYou sent Me.
(Credit to the Father)

9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
(His followers belong to the Father not him. Jesus also shows his relationship as a son of God in that all the Father posseses is his.)

11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
(Jesus prays that we have the same relationship with the Holy Father as he did. In order for this to happen, we must be of the same nature as Jesus!)

12″While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

13″But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.

14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Jesus gives the Father’s word, not his own)

15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Jesus again compares himself to his followers)

17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(Jesus says even as He himself was sent so we are sent. This clearly denies the statements that Jesus was literaly sent from Heaven. Otherwise the same must be said of Hi
s followers. In fact the word “Apostle” means “sent one”. Jesus’ life was orchestrated and directed by God. His work and His being sent to the house of Israel was from God in heaven. In like manner we as Christians in our work that is led by God are sent from heaven.)

19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
(All these prayers and statements apply to everyone)

21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Jesus specifies his oneness with God and states that it is the Father that dwells in him, not the second person of a triune godhead)

22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
(How many times does he need say it. We are to have the same relationship with Yahweh. Jesus says the Glory the Father gave to Him, He gives to us!)

23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
( Jesus says the Father is in him)

24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus prays for us to be in the same place as he is. Jesus again specifies that the Glory He has comes from the Father. It is not His own. Yahweh also lives out of our linear time frame so could easily love Christ befor his actual birth on earth or it is possible that Christ did live in heaven before his birth. Perhaps we all do! This is not evidence that He is a God.

25″O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus had to be human for many reasons —

1.Jesus had to be a man to be the second Adam. He fullfilled that which Adam failed to accompolish. He again achieved dominion over the earthly realm.

2.Jesus had to be a man, born into the human family, so that he could be the human heir of the throne of David.

3.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be “touched by a feeling of our infirmities — yet without sin.” Jesus is a “sympathetic high priest” He understands our problems and is therefore able to help those in need.

4.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be the “son of Man” — In the New American Standard Bible, Jesus is called “Son of Man” 97 times.

5.Jesus had to be a man so that he could establish the pattern for the rest of humanity. Jesus was the first human being to fullfill God’s plan.” By acknowledging Jesus’ full humanity, we show proff that human nature is indeed “very good” as God put it after creating the first man.

6. Jesus had to be a man to prove that perfected humanity is possible. He is the perfect example of what accompolishments are possible for all humanity.

I believe the word is our safety and can be relied on to be a surer word of prophecy. When faced with the desire to describe and understand the nature of God, I believe it is a safety to use scriptural terms to describe God.
The truth is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. In fact the truth can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.

Deut 4:6
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)

John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 97 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human. Not a God that became a man yet remained a God.)

Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 4/15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.

Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit (breath) and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)

John 12:44 thru 46
44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)

John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(Co-equal?)

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

There is one thrown in heaven. On that thrown sits the human Jesus Christ. When we see him we will see the glory of the Father revealed in the face of Jesus.

December 14, 2007 at 5:25 pm#74845

GeneBalthrop

Participant

martain……> couldn't have said it better myself. It's amazing to me why so many people can't see that simple truth. Jesus was a man not the one and only true God. He said it clearly when He said (THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD).

God bless you brother………..> gene

December 14, 2007 at 6:18 pm#74850

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 14 2007,21:20)

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 14 2007,19:29)

The Trinity doctrine is the invention of men and probably a doctrine of demons.
Wake up.

W.J. How ironic, three people have told you know to wake up, are you going to or are you again ignore those scripturees that prove that the trinity is wrong?

Peace and Love Mrs.

Mrs

Where are the scriptures that “prove” the Trinity is wrong?

All I see is bold acclamations about it being false. No one has taken my statements word for word and shown me where what I say is not true.

I have shown many scriptures that prove the Trinity is true.

Shall I denounce my Lord and God because some here say he is not my Lord and God.

I believe in and follow the examples found in scriptures

I agree with Thomas, and you should too.

John 20:28 dosnt show any body lamguage to indicate what he meant. But his own words should be enough.

Thomas clearly is speaking to Yeshua.

This is unambiguous. Many wish that John 1:1 and 20:28 were just not there, in fact many wish that Johns writtings were not in the Cannon period.

Look closely at the text with out any bias as a Unitarian or a Henotheist or Arian and you will see there is no other way to interpret the verses.

The problem is Thomas didnt say…

“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?

Listen again…

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.

Thomas *said unto him*. Not said unto them.

This would have been a blasphemous statement for Thomas to be calling Yeshua God.

Yet Yeshua does not rebuke nor correct him for his words but says…

Jn 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because *thou hast seen me*, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John the witness of this event neither corrects him in his writtings or explains why he said this.

My worshipping and following Yeshua as my Lord and God is simply following the examples found in scriptures.

Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

According to the Hebrews and the Shema we should worship and serve only God!

Scriptures say if you have the Son you have the Father.

1 Jn 2:33
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

John clearly teaches that Yeshua is God, for here you see that whoever has the Son has God. John 1:1 clearly being confirmation of this truth.

My fellowship with God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

1 Jn 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Phil 2:1
If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,

Jesus said we should “Honour” him “as” we “Honour” the Father. That means that all the praise, devotion, Love, committment and worship and adoration that we have for the Father is to be given to Jesus.

What mere man would dare say that men are to Honour him as they honour God?

Yeshua shared this Glory with the Father from Eternity. There is no scrpture that says he had a beginning!!!

Men speak of the “Lord” and how God did this and God did that, not realizing they are invoking the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

For the Father does nothing without the Son and the Spirit, and the Son does nothing wothout the Spirit and the Father, and the Spirit does nothing without the Father and the Son.

Yet Trinitarians are accused of calling God a them. Every time you say the Lord told you to do something, who are you speaking of? The Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit?

You say the Spirit led me to do this or that. Was it Yeshua or the Father? Can you tell the difference.

Does the Father say “I am the Father Speaking, not Yeshua”?

Can you or anybody tell me how they know the difference if it is Yeshua or the Father or the Spirit?

So if you believe Yeshua is not God, then when you say the Lord told me to do this or that, why dont you say “They” told me to do this and that? Foolishness.

Yet we know it is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit that are “One” God according to the scriptures.

So you want me to deny the Son in whom I had believed when I got saved, and denounce him as my God?

I like the early Fathers of the faith will spend all of my days calling him my Lord and my God.

1 Jn 2:33
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father (God): but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father (God) also.

Try reading it like this…

1 Jn 2:33
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not (God): but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath (God) also.

For truly that is what is meant by John through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

For he confirms it at the end of his letter…

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

December 14, 2007 at 6:20 pm#74852

NickHassan

Participant

Hi WJ,
It is not the role of scripture to prove trinity or any other extrabiblical imagination wrong. It is up to you to show it TAUGHT in scripture to give it some sort of relevance and validity first.
That hope is vain.

December 15, 2007 at 12:02 am#74873

martian

Participant

WJ –
You speak of Thomas’ statement as if it is definitive. There are many ways to define that statement that you refuse to consider because it does not fit your doctrine. In other words you define scripture based on your doctrine.
Let’s assume your definition of this verse is correct You statement is that because Thomas said “My Lord and God” to Jesus it is absolute proof that Jesus is God. This is your system for interpreting the scripture. Is that for all scripture or do you use situational ethics and change your interpretive process according to your doctrine? If your process is true then what about John 10?

33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)

Jesus quotes Psalm 82 in which God calls the people and leaders of Israel Gods. Jesus uses this verse to call the Pharisees Gods. According to your interpretation process the ancient leaders of Israel and the Pharisees are all Gods just like Jesus.

Isn’t that trinity more likely a billiony? Getting kind of crowded on the thrown isn’t it?
These is no way to prove the Trinity without situational ethics and twisting scripture.

December 15, 2007 at 2:40 am#74884

IM4Truth

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 15 2007,05:18)