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unisage,
i think i understand your point. your saying God was speaking in verse 13 but Isaiah picks up in verse 14, the way it reads i could see what you mean.unisage…….> I understand it that way also, Isaiah was speaking about Himself being sent by the Lord God and His Spirit.
Good work……….gene
i would like to pose the question that I asked laurel earlier to both Gene and Unisage. I am assuming that you two are Jewish (again sorry to assume, i know that i shouldn't). I am wondering if either of you consider YHWH to be God's actual name or just a title. feedback please. thanks.
Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 09 2007,22:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2007,03:17) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,02:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2007,14:28) BrutusBox…….> Dont neglect to start with Isa 48:1-22, Verse 11 > For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it. For How shall MY Name be profaned? And I will Not give MY Glory to another. God was speaking to and about Israel.
IMO…….>gene
maybe. but the fact remains that this passage clearly shows Jesus as preexistant.
brutusBox……> No where in the text of Ias48:1-22 is there any reference to Jesus. You are forcing the text to make it say Jesus when it really dosn't.IMO……….Gene
Gene,
The Messiah is spoken of in Isaiah 48:19.Laurel
Huh?Isa 48:19 [ESV] your offspring would have been like the sand, and your descendants like its grains; their name would never be cut off or destroyed from before me.”
Where do you see the Moshiach in that?
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 11 2007,04:15) Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 09 2007,22:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2007,03:17) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,02:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2007,14:28) BrutusBox…….> Dont neglect to start with Isa 48:1-22, Verse 11 > For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it. For How shall MY Name be profaned? And I will Not give MY Glory to another. God was speaking to and about Israel.
IMO…….>gene
maybe. but the fact remains that this passage clearly shows Jesus as preexistant.
brutusBox……> No where in the text of Ias48:1-22 is there any reference to Jesus. You are forcing the text to make it say Jesus when it really dosn't.IMO……….Gene
Gene,
The Messiah is spoken of in Isaiah 48:19.Laurel
Huh?Isa 48:19 [ESV] your offspring would have been like the sand, and your descendants like its grains; their name would never be cut off or destroyed from before me.”
Where do you see the Moshiach in that?
I was wondering the same thing.Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 11 2007,04:12) i would like to pose the question that I asked laurel earlier to both Gene and Unisage. I am assuming that you two are Jewish (again sorry to assume, i know that i shouldn't). I am wondering if either of you consider YHWH to be God's actual name or just a title. feedback please. thanks.
Why not start another thread on the name Issue? Then we all can see how the bogus names were inserted into the English bible..Now this would be something to talk about..People here have shown that in 908 pages they don't really know who Jesus is so that hinders belief in him.
Tow,
All this prooves is that men have mad up their own dictrines which make the meanings of His truth of no effect. It is not a bad thing that on this thread paople are very passionate about their beliefs.In the end we will be divided into two camps. The goats and the sheep. The sheep are His.
Which camp are you? I don't want an answer, just want to to look at yourself, that is a personal thing between you and our Creator.
Laurel
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 11 2007,13:40) People here have shown that in 908 pages they don't really know who Jesus is so that hinders belief in him.
After 908 pages and nearly 2000 years of history, many distort the true Jesus.I am sure that you accept that you do not know the true Jesus, so your comment is also toward yourself.
In the end, there are those who love the truth and those who love other things more. That doesn't need to be said, but a bit of wisdom will help you see what is really going on.
When truth comes there is always opposition. And that will be the case till the end of the world.
Jesus was opposed by the Pharisees and the Romans in his time, and he even said that what they did to him, they will do to those who follow him.
Since that time, the gospel of Jesus Christ and those that followed him have suffered at the hands of the Romans, and many other peoples.
Of course there are some who think that the Romans were the Christians, but that is because there understanding of history is not correct. The Romans conquered many of their enemies, they even conquered many Christians and the result is a prostitute Church.
2000 or so years later it is difficult for many to see the difference between truth and tradition.
On one hand you have those who think that Christians are the very Catholics who killed and persecuted tens of millions people, (including Jews), and on the other you have those who say you must be a Catholic, or must believe in her foundational creed which is known as the Trinity to be a Christian.
But a wise person can question either and realise that neither stance is correct.
The true Jesus said to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and to love your fellow man as you love yourself. He also said that he had a God and that his God is our God. If people truly listened to him, then would there be 50 million or so deaths? Would there even be a Trinity doctrine?
Of course not. But maturity is not to be expected I guess.
It isn't then surprising to see that Jesus and his teachings to this day, suffer an incredible amount of opposition. But then that very things should also arouse a suspicion as to why, even if you do not believe him to be the messiah.
Look at Jesus teachings. In order to fault him, you need to fault what he said. Faulting those who claim to be of him is not the way to do it.
If you think Jesus is a liar, prove it.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,03:37) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 11 2007,13:40) People here have shown that in 908 pages they don't really know who Jesus is so that hinders belief in him.
After 908 pages and nearly 2000 years of history, many distort the true Jesus.I would put forward that the first distortion of the true Jesus is your very own bible. Virgin birth, god-man incarnate, drinking blood, sacrificing life for sins of all his followers, death-rebirth, etc. are all borrowed from a plethora of other mythologies and not a single one of these ideals is backed up by the Tanakh. The message of Jesus is clouded by all of this mythology thrown in.
Quote I am sure that you accept that you do not know the true Jesus, so your comment is also toward yourself. Its impossible to know the true Jesus because of many mythologies that were put into his life story.
Quote In the end, there are those who love the truth and those who love other things more. That doesn't need to be said, but a bit of wisdom will help you see what is really going on. When truth comes there is always opposition. And that will be the case till the end of the world.
Jesus was opposed by the Pharisees and the Romans in his time, and he even said that what they did to him, they will do to those who follow him.
Note how the gospels particularly John, where Roman friendly while condemning the Jews. That is because if the gospels had been condemning of the Romans as well they would have never survived. Yet another lie in the name of self preservation.
Quote Since that time, the gospel of Jesus Christ and those that followed him have suffered at the hands of the Romans, and many other peoples. And since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, millions of Jews had been persecuted and killed. The source of hatred: the New Testament.
Quote Of course there are some who think that the Romans were the Christians, but that is because there understanding of history is not correct. The Romans conquered many of their enemies, they even conquered many Christians and the result is a prostitute Church. 2000 or so years later it is difficult for many to see the difference between truth and tradition.
On one hand you have those who think that Christians are the very Catholics who killed and persecuted tens of millions people, (including Jews), and on the other you have those who say you must be a Catholic, or must believe in her foundational creed which is known as the Trinity to be a Christian.
But a wise person can question either and realise that neither stance is correct.
The true Jesus said to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and to love your fellow man as you love yourself. He also said that he had a God and that his God is our God. If people truly listened to him, then would there be 50 million or so deaths? Would there even be a Trinity doctrine?
Of course not. But maturity is not to be expected I guess.
It isn't then surprising to see that Jesus and his teachings to this day, suffer an incredible amount of opposition. But then that very things should also arouse a suspicion as to why, even if you do not believe him to be the messiah.
Look at Jesus teachings. In order to fault him, you need to fault what he said. Faulting those who claim to be of him is not the way to do it.
If you think Jesus is a liar, prove it.
Was Jesus a liar? Likely he wasn't. He probably never thought he was the messiah. His goal was likely to teach against some of the harsh rules and laws that went beyond the written Torah. The oral Torah had added many things not found in the written Torah and many of those things were not in line with the written.But the Jesus found in the Christian bible was a liar. He did not meet a single qualification of the end times Moshiach other than being a man. He was not of the seed of David through Solomon, he was never anointed, none of messianic prophecies were fulfilled.
You ought to thank the Roman church. Had it not been for them you'd either serve no god or be serving some pagan god, likely Mithras because that is where Paul got most of his ideas. At least you have been exposed to YHVH albeit in a distorted manner. I can't help but think that Christianity has served a great purpose. In my own life had I not been a Christian I would never have set about later in my life to find the true G-d of all flesh, YHVH. I'm saddened that I was an idol worshiper for so many years but in the end the truth was revealed.
========================================
Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jer 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
======================================Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 11 2007,04:12) i would like to pose the question that I asked laurel earlier to both Gene and Unisage. I am assuming that you two are Jewish (again sorry to assume, i know that i shouldn't). I am wondering if either of you consider YHWH to be God's actual name or just a title. feedback please. thanks.
ButrusBox……> in my opinion, every name is a title one way or another. As far as YHWH goes who knows what it is, seeing no one Know's how to even pronounce it properly.Hears somthing interesting, Jesus said a time would come when He would no longer speak to us about the Father in proverbs (figuratively) but would show us plainly about the Father.
To me the I AM WHAT EVER I AM say's it best. The only true
God is what every He want's to be. Why, because everything that existes came from Him and is sustained by Him.Ill tell you somthing weird that happened to me a few weeks ago. Me and a friend went to our county fair, and they had a berthing area in the livestock section of the fair. There was this sheep that had Just given berth to twin lamb and they were sucking from their mothers milk and I pointed at one of the lambs and said “look God is now teaching that lamb right now how to suck milk” and the wierdest thing happened the lamb stopped sucking and turned it head and Just starred at me, it seemed as if God was teaching it and realized I reconized Him and starred at me through the lamb, it truly was a weird experience.
I believe God The Father is Spirit and is present in all things that has life. In fact I believe He sustains it.
O and by the way I am not Jewish as far as I know but am an Israelite of the tribe of Ephraim (England) as far as i Know.
IMO……peace to you BrutusBox…….gene
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) I would put forward that the first distortion of the true Jesus is your very own bible. Virgin birth, god-man incarnate, drinking blood, sacrificing life for sins of all his followers, death-rebirth, etc. are all borrowed from a plethora of other mythologies and not a single one of these ideals is backed up by the Tanakh. The message of Jesus is clouded by all of this mythology thrown in.
You are entitled to your opinion and others equally argue that the Tanakh is also a distortion using the same argument.Look at the Babylon Creation Myth or the Babylonian flood myth or the Sumerian flood stories for example. Many say that the Torah borrowed these stories from there.
Your stance should also equally apply to the Torah if you are to be fair given your judgement.
If you are arguing myths, then that road leads all the way to what I said above.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) Its impossible to know the true Jesus because of many mythologies that were put into his life story.
Is it also impossible to know about the flood, given the myths or stories regarding a flood from Babylon, Sumerian, China, etc?Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) Note how the gospels particularly John, where Roman friendly while condemning the Jews. That is because if the gospels had been condemning of the Romans as well they would have never survived. Yet another lie in the name of self preservation.
Where does John condemn the Jews?If you are referring to the Jews saying “crucify him”, then perhaps recording something that actually happened is about condemning but giving an actual account.
Even then, how is that condemning if he wasn't the messiah as you say?
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) And since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, millions of Jews had been persecuted and killed. The source of hatred: the New Testament.
Like I said, if the mess that Constantine started were judged to be the true teachings and actions of the Church, then there would be grounds to doubting Christ if they were true followers doing as he said. But Constantine and the religious system that developed there after is not representative of the true Church and the messiahs teachings at all.Rather it is exactly what Paul said would happen:
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Acts 20:29-31
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.So given the full message found in the NT, it is unfair to judge somethings as being Christian when they first contradict the teachings of Christ and the Apostles and second fulfill or resemble an opposition that was prophesied to happened.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) Was Jesus a liar? Likely he wasn't. He probably never thought he was the messiah. His goal was likely to teach against some of the harsh rules and laws that went beyond the written Torah. The oral Torah had added many things not found in the written Torah and many of those things were not in line with the written. But the Jesus found in the Christian bible was a liar. He did not meet a single qualification of the end times Moshiach other than being a man. He was not of the seed of David through Solomon, he was never anointed, none of messianic prophecies were fulfilled.
You ought to thank the Roman church. Had it not been for them you'd either serve no god or be serving some pagan god, likely Mithras because that is where Paul got most of his ideas. At least you have been exposed to YHVH albeit in a distorted manner. I can't help but think that Christianity has served a great purpose. In my own life had I not been a Christian I would never have set about later in my life to find the true G-d of all flesh, YHVH. I'm saddened that I was an idol worshiper for so many years but in the end the truth was revealed.
This is your opinion.So what is your gospel anyway, that men become Jews to be saved.
Read the Tanakh and follow it?
Or what?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,20:44) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) And since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, millions of Jews had been persecuted and killed. The source of hatred: the New Testament.
Like I said, if the mess that Constantine started were judged to be the true teachings and actions of the Church, then there would be grounds to doubting Christ if they were true followers doing as he said. But Constantine and the religious system that developed there after is not representative of the true Church and the messiahs teachings at all.If not for Constantine and the RCC do you think you would even have heard of Jesus?
Quote Rather it is exactly what Paul said would happen: 2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Acts 20:29-31
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.So given the full message found in the NT, it is unfair to judge somethings as being Christian when they first contradict the teachings of Christ and the Apostles and second fulfill or resemble an opposition that was prophesied to happened.
Its not a matter of whether they were Christian or not. The fact is they found their reason to hate the Jews from your bible. After all the Jews killed a god.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 11 2007,20:15) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 12 2007,02:15) I would put forward that the first distortion of the true Jesus is your very own bible. Virgin birth, god-man incarnate, drinking blood, sacrificing life for sins of all his followers, death-rebirth, etc. are all borrowed from a plethora of other mythologies and not a single one of these ideals is backed up by the Tanakh. The message of Jesus is clouded by all of this mythology thrown in.
You are entitled to your opinion and others equally argue that the Tanakh is also a distortion using the same argument.Look at the Babylon Creation Myth or the Babylonian flood myth or the Sumerian flood stories for example. Many say that the Torah borrowed these stories from there.
Your stance should also equally apply to the Torah if you are to be fair given your judgement.
If you are arguing myths, then that road leads all the way to what I said above.
Perhaps they were borrowed. Who knows? But the Jewish scripture wasn't written based on another religions bible. The Christian bible is. Therefore its validity must be backed up by its roots. Sadly it fails many times in that aspect. Jesus was to be the Jewish Messiah and in that aspect he failed miserably. He did not fulfill a single prophecy that the end times Messiah was supposed to. He didn't even have the right lineage.
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