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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2007,14:28) BrutusBox…….> Dont neglect to start with Isa 48:1-22, Verse 11 > For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it. For How shall MY Name be profaned? And I will Not give MY Glory to another. God was speaking to and about Israel.
IMO…….>gene
maybe. but the fact remains that this passage clearly shows Jesus as preexistant.Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,02:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2007,14:28) BrutusBox…….> Dont neglect to start with Isa 48:1-22, Verse 11 > For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it. For How shall MY Name be profaned? And I will Not give MY Glory to another. God was speaking to and about Israel.
IMO…….>gene
maybe. but the fact remains that this passage clearly shows Jesus as preexistant.
brutusBox……> No where in the text of Ias48:1-22 is there any reference to Jesus. You are forcing the text to make it say Jesus when it really dosn't.IMO……….Gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2007,13:34) MorningStar…….> the word (incarnation) IS NOT IN THE BIBLE , iTS WHAT PREEXISTENEST and TRINITARIANEST USE to try to explain their belief in Jesus as a preexistent being. But no where in the bible does it say Jesus preexisted as a being of any shape or form, until He was born on earth as the First begotten Son. Peter said He was forordained .But was Manifested (brought forth) in our time. Jesus' only preexistence was in the plan of God. And at the right to time God brought Him forth. We find No activity of Jesus recorded in either old or new testement. It shows activity of the Christos or Holy Spirit but not Jesus the man at all. IMO>…….gene
Now here is someone that knows what there talking about..
Well put..
Isa 48:12-16
12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
please explain to me who you think the Lord GOD and His Spirit are sending, if not Jesus. Also Keep in mind that the person speaking laid the foundation of the earth, and is the beginning and end. It seems pretty apparent to me that this is Jesus speaking and that we can conclude preexistance through this passage. If you have an alternate interpretation, please share, i am genuinely interested.Col 1:16&17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
I think there is only one way to interpret this.
Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,05:31) Isa 48:12-16 12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
please explain to me who you think the Lord GOD and His Spirit are sending, if not Jesus. Also Keep in mind that the person speaking laid the foundation of the earth, and is the beginning and end. It seems pretty apparent to me that this is Jesus speaking and that we can conclude preexistance through this passage. If you have an alternate interpretation, please share, i am genuinely interested.
Well all know that Only God Created the Heaven and the Earth.I can put well over 140 verses to say that he did..Well lets see what does the term First mean…
Jesus IS FIRST
Ps 89:27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Ac 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead.
Ro 8:29 The image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1Co 15:20 Messiah risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead.
Rev 3:14 The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
HE IS LAST
Ps 110:4 Yahweh hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will perform this.
Dan 7:14 There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Lu 1:33 He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall Yahweh your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
Heb 6:20 Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
How is the Son First?
Yahweh’s firstborn.
The beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Firstborn among many brethren.
Firstfruits of them that slept.
The beginning of the creation of God (The new creation).
How is He Last?
Last high priest.
Last King.
Last great prophet.
You are taking Isa 48 out of content…..
Athanasius says this:
“All things to wit were made through the Son; but He Himself is not a creature, as Paul says of the Lord: 'In Him were all things created, and He is before All' (Col. 1:16). Now He says not, 'was created' before all things, but 'is' before all things. To be created, namely, is applicable to all things, but 'is before all' applies to the Son only.”
and this:
“Therefore if the Word be creature, He would not be first or beginning of the rest; yet if He be before all, as indeed He is, and is Himself alone First and Son, it does not follow that He is beginning of all things as to His Essence, for what is the beginning of all is in the number of all. And if He is not such a beginning, then neither is He a creature, but it is very plain that He differs in essence and nature from the creatures, and is other than they, and is Likeness and Image of the sole and true God, being Himself sole also. Hence He is not classed with creatures in Scripture”
Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,06:03) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,05:31) Isa 48:12-16 12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
please explain to me who you think the Lord GOD and His Spirit are sending, if not Jesus. Also Keep in mind that the person speaking laid the foundation of the earth, and is the beginning and end. It seems pretty apparent to me that this is Jesus speaking and that we can conclude preexistance through this passage. If you have an alternate interpretation, please share, i am genuinely interested.
Well all know that Only God Created the Heaven and the Earth.I can put well over 140 verses to say that he did..Well lets see what does the term First mean…
Jesus IS FIRST
Ps 89:27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Ac 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead.
Ro 8:29 The image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1Co 15:20 Messiah risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead.
Rev 3:14 The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
HE IS LAST
Ps 110:4 Yahweh hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will perform this.
Dan 7:14 There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Lu 1:33 He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall Yahweh your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
Heb 6:20 Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
How is the Son First?
Yahweh’s firstborn.
The beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Firstborn among many brethren.
Firstfruits of them that slept.
The beginning of the creation of God (The new creation).
How is He Last?
Last high priest.
Last King.
Last great prophet.
You are taking Isa 48 out of content…..
if you will reread the Isaiah passage you will see that the Person speaking clearly says that he laid the foundation of the earth with his own hand in verse 13, then at the end of the passage says that the Lord God and His Spirit have sent him. you made some great points, but how can you explain away my above point.Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,06:29) Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,06:03) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,05:31) Isa 48:12-16 12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
please explain to me who you think the Lord GOD and His Spirit are sending, if not Jesus. Also Keep in mind that the person speaking laid the foundation of the earth, and is the beginning and end. It seems pretty apparent to me that this is Jesus speaking and that we can conclude preexistance through this passage. If you have an alternate interpretation, please share, i am genuinely interested.
Well all know that Only God Created the Heaven and the Earth.I can put well over 140 verses to say that he did..Well lets see what does the term First mean…
Jesus IS FIRST
Ps 89:27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Ac 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead.
Ro 8:29 The image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1Co 15:20 Messiah risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead.
Rev 3:14 The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
HE IS LAST
Ps 110:4 Yahweh hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will perform this.
Dan 7:14 There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Lu 1:33 He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall Yahweh your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
Heb 6:20 Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
How is the Son First?
Yahweh’s firstborn.
The beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Firstborn among many brethren.
Firstfruits of them that slept.
The beginning of the creation of God (The new creation).
How is He Last?
Last high priest.
Last King.
Last great prophet.
You are taking Isa 48 out of content…..
if you will reread the Isaiah passage you will see that the Person speaking clearly says that he laid the foundation of the earth with his own hand in verse 13, then at the end of the passage says that the Lord God and His Spirit have sent him. you made some great points, but how can you explain away my above point.
If you study you wouldnt have a problem…WHICH CREATOR?
Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?
This verse is stating that whoever “Hath established all the ends of the earth,” has a name and has a son, which makes him a father. Here we see the Father credited with creating everything and almost as an after thought it mentions His Son.
There are 143 (possibly more) verses in the Bible that speak of the Heavenly Father Yahweh as the Creator.
Ge 1:1, 11, 16, 21, 25, 27; 2:4, 7, 19, 22; 3:1; 5:1, 2; 6:7.
Ex 20:11, 31:17.
De 4:32.
1Sam 2:8.
2Ki 19:15.
1Ch 16:26.
2Ch 2:12.
Neh 9:6.
Job 9:8; 12:9, 10; 26:7, 8, 10, 12; 28:25, 27; 37:15, 16, 18.
Ps 19:1; 24:1, 2; 95:5, 6; 96:5; 102:25; 104:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 19, 24; 115:15, 16; 119: 89, 90; 121:2; 124:8; 134:3; 135:7; 136:5, 6, 7, 8, 9; 146:6; 148:5, 6.
Pr 3:19; 22:2; 30:4.
Eccl 11:5.
Isa 17:7; 37:6; 40:12, 22, 28; 42:5; 43:15; 44:24; 45:5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 18; 48:13; 51:13, 16; 54:5; 65:17,18; 66:1, 2.
Jer 5:22; 10:11, 12, 13; 14:22; 23:24; 27:5; 31:35; 32:17, 27; 33:2; 51:15.
Amos 4:13; 9:6.
Jonah 1:9.
Zech 12:1.
Mal 2:10.
Mt 11:25; 19:26.
Mr 10:6; 13:19.
Ac 4:24; 7:49,50; 14:15; 17:24, 25, 26, 28.
Ro 1:20, 25; 11:36.
1Co 8:6.
Eph 3:9.
1Ti 4:3.
Heb 1:2; 3:4; 11:3, 10.
Rev 4:11; 10:6; 14:7.
There is not a single verse in the Bible that tells us the Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. However, many translator’s pre-conceived, indoctrinated beliefs led them to interpret scripture instead of doing their job of strictly translating. This has made a few verses appear to indicate the Son did the creating but at the same time they contradict the 100 plus verses that tell us the Father alone did the creating. Here they are.
Jn 1:10 He (the Light vs 8) was in the world, and the world was made by (1223) him, and the world knew him not.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of (1537) whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahshua Messiah, by (1223) whom are all things, and we by (1223) him.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by (1223) Yahshua Messiah:
Col 1:16 For by (1722) him (Son vs 13) were all things created, that are in (1722) heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (1223) him, an
d for (1519) him:17 And he is before all things, and by (1722) him all things consist.Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (1722) [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by (1223) whom also he made the worlds.
Now you have a problem with your doctrine….Explain the contradiction now….
Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,06:33) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,06:29) Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,06:03) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,05:31) Isa 48:12-16 12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”
please explain to me who you think the Lord GOD and His Spirit are sending, if not Jesus. Also Keep in mind that the person speaking laid the foundation of the earth, and is the beginning and end. It seems pretty apparent to me that this is Jesus speaking and that we can conclude preexistance through this passage. If you have an alternate interpretation, please share, i am genuinely interested.
Well all know that Only God Created the Heaven and the Earth.I can put well over 140 verses to say that he did..Well lets see what does the term First mean…
Jesus IS FIRST
Ps 89:27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Ac 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead.
Ro 8:29 The image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1Co 15:20 Messiah risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead.
Rev 3:14 The faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
HE IS LAST
Ps 110:4 Yahweh hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will perform this.
Dan 7:14 There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Lu 1:33 He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall Yahweh your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
Heb 6:20 Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
How is the Son First?
Yahweh’s firstborn.
The beginning, the firstborn from the dead
Firstborn among many brethren.
Firstfruits of them that slept.
The beginning of the creation of God (The new creation).
How is He Last?
Last high priest.
Last King.
Last great prophet.
You are taking Isa 48 out of content…..
if you will reread the Isaiah passage you will see that the Person speaking clearly says that he laid the foundation of the earth with his own hand in verse 13, then at the end of the passage says that the Lord God and His Spirit have sent him. you made some great points, but how can you explain away my above point.
If you study you wouldnt have a problem…WHICH CREATOR?
Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?
This verse is stating that whoever “Hath established all the ends of the earth,” has a name and has a son, which makes him a father. Here we see the Father credited with creating everything and almost as an after thought it mentions His Son.
There are 143 (possibly more) verses in the Bible that speak of the Heavenly Father Yahweh as the Creator.
Ge 1:1, 11, 16, 21, 25, 27; 2:4, 7, 19, 22; 3:1; 5:1, 2; 6:7.
Ex 20:11, 31:17.
De 4:32.
1Sam 2:8.
2Ki 19:15.
1Ch 16:26.
2Ch 2:12.
Neh 9:6.
Job 9:8; 12:9, 10; 26:7, 8, 10, 12; 28:25, 27; 37:15, 16, 18.
Ps 19:1; 24:1, 2; 95:5, 6; 96:5; 102:25; 104:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 19, 24; 115:15, 16; 119: 89, 90; 121:2; 124:8; 134:3; 135:7; 136:5, 6, 7, 8, 9; 146:6; 148:5, 6.
Pr 3:19; 22:2; 30:4.
Eccl 11:5.
Isa 17:7; 37:6; 40:12, 22, 28; 42:5; 43:15; 44:24; 45:5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 18; 48:13; 51:13, 16; 54:5; 65:17,18; 66:1, 2.
Jer 5:22; 10:11, 12, 13; 14:22; 23:24; 27:5; 31:35; 32:17, 27; 33:2; 51:15.
Amos 4:13; 9:6.
Jonah 1:9.
Zech 12:1.
Mal 2:10.
Mt 11:25; 19:26.
Mr 10:6; 13:19.
Ac 4:24; 7:49,50; 14:15; 17:24, 25, 26, 28.
Ro 1:20, 25; 11:36.
1Co 8:6.
Eph 3:9.
1Ti 4:3.
Heb 1:2; 3:4; 11:3, 10.
Rev 4:11; 10:6; 14:7.
There is not a single verse in the Bible that tells us the Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. However, many translator’s pre-conceived, indoctrinated beliefs led them to interpret scripture instead of doing their job of strictly translating. This has made a few verses appear to indicate the Son did the creating but at the same time they contradict the 100 plus verses that tell us the Father alone did the creating. Here they are.
Jn 1:10 He (the Light vs 8) was in the world, and the world was made by (1223) him, and the world knew him not.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of (1537) whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahshua Messiah, by (1223) whom are all things, and we by (1223) him.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by (1223) Yahshua Messiah:
Col 1:16 For by (1722) him (Son vs 13) were all things c
reated, that are in (1722) heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (1223) him, and for (1519) him:17 And he is before all things, and by (1722) him all things consist.Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (1722) [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by (1223) whom also he made the worlds.
Now you have a problem with your doctrine….Explain the contradiction now….
i have studied quite a bit, and like i said you have strong points and scripture to back up what you are saying, and i am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but you have yet to answer my question. i would like to know how you interpret the aforementioned Isaiah passage.i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested.
Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,07:19) i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested.
These are not my words since I dont read or write ancient Hebrew or ChaldenHere is the JPT translation of this verse it is the prophet who spoke this.
Isaiah 48:16 – Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit
from the JPT commentary as an example..
“in the beginning I did not speak in secret” – The prophecy regarding Sannherib, which was the first one, I did not speak in secret but I said in public that it would come about.
“from the time it was” – From the time the decree was enacted, as I said, “You are my witnesses,” and now the Lord God has sent me regarding the decree that is destined to come, viz. the destruction of Babylon.
“and His spirit” – His angel came to me as an agent of God with prophecy, and he informed me of this decree that is destined to come. He sent me to you that I inform you of it. [This phrase indicates that the prophet saw the angel who delivered the message to him. Sometime, a prophet would hear him but not see him.]
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2007,03:17) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,02:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2007,14:28) BrutusBox…….> Dont neglect to start with Isa 48:1-22, Verse 11 > For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it. For How shall MY Name be profaned? And I will Not give MY Glory to another. God was speaking to and about Israel.
IMO…….>gene
maybe. but the fact remains that this passage clearly shows Jesus as preexistant.
brutusBox……> No where in the text of Ias48:1-22 is there any reference to Jesus. You are forcing the text to make it say Jesus when it really dosn't.IMO……….Gene
Gene,
The Messiah is spoken of in Isaiah 48:19.Laurel
Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,06:01) Col 1:16&17 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
I think there is only one way to interpret this.
Brutus,
I am in agreement that Y'shua did exist in the hearts and minds of the true believers. For, no one has seen the Father except through Messiah.I can answer how they knew Messiah. He is pictured in every Feast of YHWH, Tabernacles, Unleavenend Bread, Passover, etc.
To those who meet with the Creator YHWH at His appointed times, learned of this Messiah, believed He would come and was from the beginning, because they understood that all things will come to pass that YHWH spoke, and His Son certainly came to be, and so was from the beginning.
Isn't YHWH our ELohim an awesome God!!!
Laurel
Why don't we start a “Oneness” thread and debate it? Cause I don't believe in that either.
But, when we are studying both of these beliefs at the same time we can clearly see how ridiculous they both are in some aspects.
And, it will be a nice change of pace…I'll start it now.
Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,11:34) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,07:19) i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested.
These are not my words since I dont read or write ancient Hebrew or ChaldenHere is the JPT translation of this verse it is the prophet who spoke this.
Isaiah 48:16 – Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit
from the JPT commentary as an example..
“in the beginning I did not speak in secret” – The prophecy regarding Sannherib, which was the first one, I did not speak in secret but I said in public that it would come about.
“from the time it was” – From the time the decree was enacted, as I said, “You are my witnesses,” and now the Lord God has sent me regarding the decree that is destined to come, viz. the destruction of Babylon.
“and His spirit” – His angel came to me as an agent of God with prophecy, and he informed me of this decree that is destined to come. He sent me to you that I inform you of it. [This phrase indicates that the prophet saw the angel who delivered the message to him. Sometime, a prophet would hear him but not see him.]
2 points.
first, i have no problem with you not trusting the translations, but if that is the case, why trust the JPT. Why not get your hands on some word studies, which are easy to use even without speaking the language, and decide for yourself what the scripture is saying. i do this regularly and find it quite helpful, (although, i usually find that most of the translations have done an exemplary job translating).
Second, in verse 13 of Isa. 48 the speaker claims to have created the heavens and earth, i think if you reread the passage you'll see that it is still the same person speaking in verse 16, therefore it can not be the prophet speaking, as the prophet obviously did not create the heavens and earth.Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 10 2007,15:25) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,06:01) Col 1:16&17 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
I think there is only one way to interpret this.
Brutus,
I am in agreement that Y'shua did exist in the hearts and minds of the true believers. For, no one has seen the Father except through Messiah.I can answer how they knew Messiah. He is pictured in every Feast of YHWH, Tabernacles, Unleavenend Bread, Passover, etc.
To those who meet with the Creator YHWH at His appointed times, learned of this Messiah, believed He would come and was from the beginning, because they understood that all things will come to pass that YHWH spoke, and His Son certainly came to be, and so was from the beginning.
Isn't YHWH our ELohim an awesome God!!!
Laurel
Strong point Laurel.
I have a question for you. from reading your post i am assuming that you are a messianic Jew. (sorry to assume). but if that is the case, i would like to know if you believe YHWH is the actual name of God(father) or just a title, and if you think that has been the belief of Jews throuout history.Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 11 2007,02:35) Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,11:34) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,07:19) i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested.
These are not my words since I dont read or write ancient Hebrew or ChaldenHere is the JPT translation of this verse it is the prophet who spoke this.
Isaiah 48:16 – Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit
from the JPT commentary as an example..
“in the beginning I did not speak in secret” – The prophecy regarding Sannherib, which was the first one, I did not speak in secret but I said in public that it would come about.
“from the time it was” – From the time the decree was enacted, as I said, “You are my witnesses,” and now the Lord God has sent me regarding the decree that is destined to come, viz. the destruction of Babylon.
“and His spirit” – His angel came to me as an agent of God with prophecy, and he informed me of this decree that is destined to come. He sent me to you that I inform you of it. [This phrase indicates that the prophet saw the angel who delivered the message to him. Sometime, a prophet would hear him but not see him.]
2 points.
first, i have no problem with you not trusting the translations, but if that is the case, why trust the JPT. Why not get your hands on some word studies, which are easy to use even without speaking the language, and decide for yourself what the scripture is saying. i do this regularly and find it quite helpful, (although, i usually find that most of the translations have done an exemplary job translating).
Second, in verse 13 of Isa. 48 the speaker claims to have created the heavens and earth, i think if you reread the passage you'll see that it is still the same person speaking in verse 16, therefore it can not be the prophet speaking, as the prophet obviously did not create the heavens and earth.
But inagain you neglect the well over 140 verses that say God alone CREATED the Heavens and the Earth..There was no Jesus there.Jesus was not brought forth until God Dna was mixed with Mary.Oh btw. wouldnt that make Mary a Goddess?
Like I said you took Isa 48:12-16 out of content.You have major contradiction to say it is Jesus.
You need to explain the contradiction before you push your theology..
And why trust the KJV? or for that matter any English bible translation..They cant even agree with each other..
So much for trusting the translation..
BrutusBox
Isaiah 48:13 “Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.”
Nature itself will listen and respond to God's wishes.
Isaiah 48:16 “Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.”
This is Isaiah speaking here in this particular verse. Isaiah is telling you to wake up and listen to what God has told him to say.
Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 11 2007,03:20) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 11 2007,02:35) Quote (Unisage @ Nov. 10 2007,11:34) Quote (BrutusBox @ Nov. 10 2007,07:19) i would also be interested, unisage, to hear what those verses true translations should be, as opposed to the “interpretations” we have in our Bibles. i am not being sarcastic i am genuinely interested.
These are not my words since I dont read or write ancient Hebrew or ChaldenHere is the JPT translation of this verse it is the prophet who spoke this.
Isaiah 48:16 – Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit
from the JPT commentary as an example..
“in the beginning I did not speak in secret” – The prophecy regarding Sannherib, which was the first one, I did not speak in secret but I said in public that it would come about.
“from the time it was” – From the time the decree was enacted, as I said, “You are my witnesses,” and now the Lord God has sent me regarding the decree that is destined to come, viz. the destruction of Babylon.
“and His spirit” – His angel came to me as an agent of God with prophecy, and he informed me of this decree that is destined to come. He sent me to you that I inform you of it. [This phrase indicates that the prophet saw the angel who delivered the message to him. Sometime, a prophet would hear him but not see him.]
2 points.
first, i have no problem with you not trusting the translations, but if that is the case, why trust the JPT. Why not get your hands on some word studies, which are easy to use even without speaking the language, and decide for yourself what the scripture is saying. i do this regularly and find it quite helpful, (although, i usually find that most of the translations have done an exemplary job translating).
Second, in verse 13 of Isa. 48 the speaker claims to have created the heavens and earth, i think if you reread the passage you'll see that it is still the same person speaking in verse 16, therefore it can not be the prophet speaking, as the prophet obviously did not create the heavens and earth.
But inagain you neglect the well over 140 verses that say God alone CREATED the Heavens and the Earth..There was no Jesus there.Jesus was not brought forth until God Dna was mixed with Mary.Oh btw. wouldnt that make Mary a Goddess?
Like I said you took Isa 48:12-16 out of content.You have major contradiction to say it is Jesus.
You need to explain the contradiction before you push your theology..
And why trust the KJV? or for that matter any English bible translation..They cant even agree with each other.. So much for trusting the translation..
so you agree with my point, why trust the kjv or the jpt, we can study it ourselves and decide what we think it says.
and i think I misunderstood what you have been trying to say until now. if i understand you correctly, you are merely saying that you don't believe that this is referring to Jesus, which is fine. it would be very difficult to believe Jesus is the messiah based on just this passage. But the point i was trying to make is that the messiah is preexistant to the world. do you believe that this passage is referring to the Messiah? let me reword that. Do you believe that this is the Messiah speaking through the prophet? Or do you believe that the prophet created the heavens and earth (i.e. verse 13)?
i do not want to disregard the other verses at all and i would love to discuss those as well. I am just interested to hear the your beliefs regarding the above questions.
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