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Quote (Knightedsaint @ Oct. 18 2007,17:53) Man is created in the likeness of GOD as per let us make man in our likeness and in our image.
So if we look at the Trinity and at man we see the same composition as in the 3 in one.
“Man has a Spirit, a Soul, and a Body.” “God is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Mind or Soul Of GOD, And Jesus Christ is the Body.”
How can a spirit be a soul if something else is the spirit?5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Quote (Knightedsaint @ Oct. 19 2007,11:26) 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The only teaching scripture of the 3 in one creed, but unfortunately it isn't scripture.It was added in because the Trinity was nowhere taught.
God forgot to mention it, so some wise men added it in later.
Who is the Saviour Jesus or GOD? Looks like one in the same.
Titus 1
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Acts 7:35
35 “So God sent back the same man his people had previously rejected when they demanded, ‘Who made you a ruler and judge over us?’ Through the angel who appeared to him in the burning bush, God sent Moses to be their ruler and savior.The answer is Moses.
OK, it is really God, but God sent Moses.
Likewise, God sent Jesus to save men from their sins.
Jesus even asked for the cup to be taken away, but said “not MY will, but yours”.Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”Knightedsaint welcome to you. I also tried to explain through the created how we are in the image of the creator. (your in for an uphill walk with this crew) I encourage you to take it though because they will push and test you to the very edge. This is extremely good for when you are done you will be much sharper on what you believe and why you believe it. To kejonn I have not had time to deal with your response to me but when I get into my bible and my prayer closet with some time for this subject I will post God bless everyone as we continue to search for truth. (Eventhough I am not posting I still check in and read when I can)
Edit: sorry kejonn, I meant in the pre existance thread and thanks for your correction of what book I was quoting God Bless.
This is the same old story that is being taught to people searching for the Truth but have adapted to this False Doctrine From the Church of God which denies Jesus Christ and His Diety and the True Biblical Doctrine From the Origional Scriptures. Pray and Ask GOD to show you the truth.
In actual fact Knightedsaint, the Trinity doctrine subtly denies that he is the son of God, by also saying that he is God.
But you are either God, or the son of God.
Believing that Jesus is the son of God is essential for true faith in Jesus and his God.
BTW, yes there are some here that believe that Jesus is just a man. But scripture teaches that Jesus has the nature of his father. He is a divine being, and a son who is at the right hand of God.
He is the firstborn of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
Would it not be better to start with scripture, rather than choose an on the shelf belief like the Trinity, Unitarian, Oneness, or another doctrine not taught in scripture.
If we start with our own understanding and fit scripture into it, then we finish with your own understanding.
I wonder if you are noble enough to let scripture speak, teach, correct, and exhort you, rather than twist it to support a creed of man? Or will you simply be espousing Babylon?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 20 2007,11:39) In actual fact Knightedsaint, the Trinity doctrine subtly denies that he is the son of God, by also saying that he is God. But you are either God, or the son of God.
Believing that Jesus is the son of God is essential for true faith in Jesus and his God.
BTW, yes there are some here that believe that Jesus is just a man. But scripture teaches that Jesus has the nature of his father. He is a divine being, and a son who is at the right hand of God.
He is the firstborn of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
Would it not be better to start with scripture, rather than choose an on the shelf belief like the Trinity, Unitarian, Oneness, or another doctrine not taught in scripture.
If we start with our own understanding and fit scripture into it, then we finish with your own understanding.
I wonder if you are noble enough to let scripture speak, teach, correct, and exhort you, rather than twist it to support a creed of man? Or will you simply be espousing Babylon?
And dont forget “Henotheism” for they believe in more than one God. but claim to only worship one.They say that a Father who is human and has a Son is not equally human!
You know T8 Thats the exact thing I was thinking of today when I was thinking about this Oneness Belief. To say that Jesus is GOD is to deny that he is the Son of GOD that came in the Flesh and died for our sins.
Then there is this…
Ephesians 4 (King James Version)
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
and this…
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:Mark 1:8
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.Acts 1:16
Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Matthew 28:19 (King James Version)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:It appears to me there is more than “ONE” type of baptism going on. However, if there is only “ONE” baptism as the scripture would have us believe, then what of these other baptisms?
Are they indeed of man? Could it be possible that men are wrong? Would you trust your salvation in the hands of a man? Would you give up your ticket to heaven and deny Jesus is the Son of GOD?Better yet what would you do if JESUS were here? Would you run to some man and ask them if its really JESUS?
Have ye received the Holy Ghost?
Unto what baptism were ye baptized?48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50Hath not my hand made all these things?
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Obviously Stephen “SAW TO BEINGS STANDING HERE…this does not prove a Trinity however…but it proves that all of them are not 'ONE' at the same time”
However, to beings, flesh, or even whole groups can be like minded and/or act as one as we see here:
1 Cor 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.1 Cor 10:17
For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.1 Cor 12:12
. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.2 Cor 13:11
. Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.Matthew 19:5
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?Matthew 19:6
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.Mark 10:8
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.1 Cor 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.Ephesians 5:31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.So what does this mean?
Well, I'll tell you what it means…It means Verily verily…which is to say, 1 : in truth : certainly 2 : truly, confidently
This is the truth…You can either believe it or don't believe it.The choice is yours.
Quote Who is the Saviour Jesus or GOD? Looks like one in the same.
Titus 1And ye shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins. We are saved through believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, not that he was God, so he cannot be the same person.
Did God send his Son or did he come himself?
If Jesus is God why did he say his Father was his God?
Why does Jesus worship God if he is God? Does he worship himself?
Who does Christ make intercession to on our behalf? If he's praying to himself he's not praying he's just talking to someone that does not exist that makes him a lunatic and an imposter. Keep Jesus as the Son of God at all times. When he came, before he came, and when he returned to heaven. A person cannot return to a place they've never been before.
If he didn't pre-exist then he could only be returning to a non-existent state, which of course, is foolishness.
Take Care
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 26 2007,07:22) A person cannot return to a place they've never been before.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man.Interesting. It doesn't say that the Son of GOD came from heaven, it says the Son of MAN came from heaven.
For those who believe that the son existed in the from of God, OR in the form of an angel, OR a spirit son begotten of God alone…..this verse seems to say that the Son of MAN came from heaven. What would this imply, do you think?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 26 2007,08:27) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 26 2007,07:22) A person cannot return to a place they've never been before.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man.Interesting. It doesn't say that the Son of GOD came from heaven, it says the Son of MAN came from heaven.
For those who believe that the son existed in the from of God, OR in the form of an angel, OR a spirit son begotten of God alone…..this verse seems to say that the Son of MAN came from heaven. What would this imply, do you think?
not3This was the point I was making to mr steve.
Since Jesus was now in the flesh and a man he referred to himself as the “Son of God” and the “Son of Man”. I dont believe in anyway his statmemt denys Jn 1:1 or Phil 2: 6-8.
For there are other statements that Jesus made concerning his pre-existence that he didnt use the terms “Son of God” or “Son of man”, for intance he said… “before Abraham was I Am”.
Interesting he didnt say “I existed” or “I was”, But he said “I Am” and they wanted to stone him.
Again there is no scripture prior to his natural birth that says he was anything other than the “Word that was with God and was God”.
Anything beyond that is inference!
t8…….> You say and give scripture that God created every thing through and for Christ. And by this you are saying Jesus preexisted as some sort of being.
What do you do with other scriptures that show it differently, like,
ISA 44:24….> Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer and He that Formed thee in the (womb), I am the Lord that maketh all thngs; that stretched forth the heaven (ALONE); that spreadeth abroad the earth (BY MYSELF).Evidently we have a conterdiction of scriptures. How could God do it alone and by Himself if Jesus was present as you claim the text says.
You either have to accept WJ's reasoning that Jesus is God Himself or say one or the other scripture is wrong or maybe yours and other preexistentest and trinitarinest understanding of what your proof text say's is wrong.
I offer you this, the word (Christ) in your proof text does not Mean the man JESUS but the Annointing or Spirit of God. And thats what God created the world through and for, and it had nothing to do with Jesus the Person at all.
With this understanding both texts are OK as they are.
and does not Give Jesus the position of God Himself.
IMO……geneHad the trinity never developed in Christianity, Jews might not be so quick to point out the idolatry of the religion. They would have thought it was only a heresy of Judaism.
Toshab….> I agree with you on the Idolatry of Trinitarinism, God plainly said ” You shall have No other God Besides Me”.
Representing any other person as the Almighty God is IDOLATRY.
IMO…….geneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2007,14:20) Toshab….> I agree with you on the Idolatry of Trinitarinism, God plainly said ” You shall have No other God Besides Me”.
Representing any other person as the Almighty God is IDOLATRY.
IMO…….gene
GBIdolatry would be worshipping a false God would it not?
I'm really starting to question a lot of what everyone is saying.
If JESUS was GOD himself why did he not just say “Hey yall I'm GOD” there is only one time in the whole bible that I know of (if there is any other instances please post them so that I might study them myself) where JESUS is accused of saying that he was the “I AM”….and thats when they asked him “Hey are you really the Son of GOD”…and he says “I AM”. Thats in no way form of fashion saying that I AM the I AM GOD ALMIGHTY…if thats what he was trying to say I believe thats what he would have said.
Another thing….if JESUS IS GOD will someone please answer me this question…PLEASE:
Why does JESUS not know when the Father…(GOD), will tell him to come back for his church.Everyone has beat around this question and himhaw'd around about it saying that “Well…you see his spirit don't know what his body knows or some HOGWASH lame brained excuse of why he don't know the answer to this question. When in FACT I honestly believe that He (Jesus/ the SON of GOD) don't know when the day or hour is because he is in fact NOT GOD himself. If GOD is all knowing …and GOD is JESUS than this would make GOD a lier …and GOD's not a lier he can't lie. So…That means that some men are lying. Now who is it?
Sam,
It is clear that the Spirit is teaching you……be patient and wait on the LORD for your answers. Get into the the bible and pray for understanding. There are many folks here with various opinions and theories – don't let that discourage you. You just look up and praise him! Be convinced in your own mind what the bible is saying. It's good to test things here, but don't get too caught up in all the doctrines. Just listen to the Spirit and pray. You're on the right track, brother.Love to you and peace of mind to you,
Mandy
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