The Trinity Doctrine

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

I believe it is the Father who is God over all. I also believe it is the Father because Jesus calls him the One TRUE God in John 17:3.

That is true. God is also the God of Christ.

Mr. Steve

[kejonn]

Interesting. The Torah can reveal some things that we need to know from God. Is making God into a man a form of idolatry?

Deu 4:15 “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire,
Deu 4:16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

Of course, Yeshua was not a “graven image”, but he is a male human. It is interesting that God added the stipulation “the likeness of male or female”…wouldn't a graven image been enough. I think this is rather telling.

Furthermore,

Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Mat 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”

Act 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know–

Isn't it also rather telling that God said he is neither man nor the son of man in one verse, two appellations attributed to Yeshua? Who can deny the truth of this statement? Since Yeshua knew the Torah inside and out, why did he constantly call himself “Son of Man” if he was NOT telling us he was not God? People are always looking for him to admit he is NOT God, and this is the admission.

He constantly called himself “Son of Man” and he knew this verse

Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Thus, he freely admitted he is NOT God. In fact, he called himself “Son of Man” 29 times in Matthew alone. So, he denied being God at least 29 times. Why else would he call himself “Son of Man” so much? Just what was the significance if not for us to look at Num 23:19?

Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

No more “position from silence”.

[Morningstar]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,13:30)

Interesting. The Torah can reveal some things that we need to know from God. Is making God into a man a form of idolatry? Deu 4:15  “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, Deu 4:16  so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Of course, Yeshua was not a “graven image”, but he is a male human. It is interesting that God added the stipulation “the likeness of male or female”…wouldn't a graven image been enough. I think this is rather telling. Furthermore, Num 23:19  “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Mat 16:13  Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” Act 2:22  “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know– Isn't it also rather telling that God said he is neither man nor the son of man in one verse, two appellations attributed to Yeshua? Who can deny the truth of this statement? Since Yeshua knew the Torah inside and out, why did he constantly call himself “Son of Man” if he was NOT telling us he was not God? People are always looking for him to admit he is NOT God, and this is the admission. He constantly called himself “Son of Man” and he knew this verse Num 23:19  “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Thus, he freely admitted he is NOT God. In fact, he called himself “Son of Man” 29 times in Matthew alone. So, he denied being God at least 29 times. Why else would he call himself “Son of Man” so much? Just what was the significance if not for us to look at Num 23:19? Joh 5:39  “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; No more “position from silence”.

He called himself Son of Man so many times because he was using the familiar term for the messiah over and over again as found in the book of enoch. It was an ongoing hint over and over. Read the book of enoch if you haven't and see what I mean. He tells many parables simular to the conents of that book, including the lazarus and the rich man parable.

Which by the way the book of enoch is very clear on the preexistence of the messiah. Jesus and his disciples knew this book well. His brother Jude quotes from it.

Jude vs. 14
Enoch 1:9

both are identical

[kejonn]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,21:28)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,13:30) Interesting. The Torah can reveal some things that we need to know from God. Is making God into a man a form of idolatry? Deu 4:15 “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, Deu 4:16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Of course, Yeshua was not a “graven image”, but he is a male human. It is interesting that God added the stipulation “the likeness of male or female”…wouldn't a graven image been enough. I think this is rather telling. Furthermore, Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Mat 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” Act 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know– Isn't it also rather telling that God said he is neither man nor the son of man in one verse, two appellations attributed to Yeshua? Who can deny the truth of this statement? Since Yeshua knew the Torah inside and out, why did he constantly call himself “Son of Man” if he was NOT telling us he was not God? People are always looking for him to admit he is NOT God, and this is the admission. He constantly called himself “Son of Man” and he knew this verse Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Thus, he freely admitted he is NOT God. In fact, he called himself “Son of Man” 29 times in Matthew alone. So, he denied being God at least 29 times. Why else would he call himself “Son of Man” so much? Just what was the significance if not for us to look at Num 23:19? Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; No more “position from silence”. He called himself Son of Man so many times because he was using the familiar term for the messiah over and over again as found in the book of enoch. It was an ongoing hint over and over. Read the book of enoch if you haven't and see what I mean. He tells many parables simular to the conents of that book, including the lazarus and the rich man parable. Which by the way the book of enoch is very clear on the preexistence of the messiah. Jesus and his disciples knew this book well. His brother Jude quotes from it. Jude vs. 14 Enoch 1:9 both are identical

No thanks, the book of Enoch is a fable as far as I'm concerned.

[Morningstar]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,14:42)

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,21:28) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,13:30) Interesting. The Torah can reveal some things that we need to know from God. Is making God into a man a form of idolatry? Deu 4:15  “So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, Deu 4:16  so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Of course, Yeshua was not a “graven image”, but he is a male human. It is interesting that God added the stipulation “the likeness of male or female”…wouldn't a graven image been enough. I think this is rather telling. Furthermore, Num 23:19  “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Mat 16:13  Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” Act 2:22  “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know– Isn't it also rather telling that God said he is neither man nor the son of man in one verse, two appellations attributed to Yeshua? Who can deny the truth of this statement? Since Yeshua knew the Torah inside and out, why did he constantly call himself “Son of Man” if he was NOT telling us he was not God? People are always looking for him to admit he is NOT God, and this is the admission. He constantly called himself “Son of Man” and he knew this verse Num 23:19  “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Thus, he freely admitted he is NOT God. In fact, he called himself “Son of Man” 29 times in Matthew alone. So, he denied being God at least 29 times. Why else would he call himself “Son of Man” so much? Just what was the significance if not for us to look at Num 23:19? Joh 5:39  “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; No more “position from silence”. He called himself Son of Man so many times because he was using the familiar term for the messiah over and over again as found in the book of enoch.  It was an ongoing hint over and over.  Read the book of enoch if you haven't and see what I mean.  He tells many parables simular to the conents of that book, including the lazarus and the rich man parable. Which by the way the book of enoch is very clear on the preexistence of the messiah.  Jesus and his disciples knew this book well.  His brother Jude quotes from it. Jude vs. 14 Enoch 1:9 both are identical No thanks, the book of Enoch is a fable as far as I'm concerned.

Then who is it that Jesus and his disciples disagree with? I think you said it was me in a different post, but you are blatantly disagreeing with Jude's quote and Jesus references.

[kejonn]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,21:44)

He called himself Son of Man so many times because he was using the familiar term for the messiah over and over again as found in the book of enoch. It was an ongoing hint over and over. Read the book of enoch if you haven't and see what I mean. He tells many parables simular to the conents of that book, including the lazarus and the rich man parable. Which by the way the book of enoch is very clear on the preexistence of the messiah. Jesus and his disciples knew this book well. His brother Jude quotes from it. Jude vs. 14 Enoch 1:9 both are identical[/quote] No thanks, the book of Enoch is a fable as far as I'm concerned.[/quote] Then who is it that Jesus and his disciples disagree with? I think you said it was me in a different post, but you are blatantly disagreeing with Jude's quote and Jesus references.

Huh? I'm not disagreeing with you here, just saying that the book of Enoch is unreliable. Whether or not Yeshua is quoting the book of Enoch is of no value when you consider that, in doing so, he goes against Num 23:19.

If he is God he would not forget Num 23:19 and would have never called himself “Son of Man”. If he was well studied in the Torah, he would know that calling himself “Son of Man” would be a denial that he is God according to Num 23:19, thus he used the appellation many times to let others know he was NOT God.

[Morningstar]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,15:22)

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,21:44) He called himself Son of Man so many times because he was using the familiar term for the messiah over and over again as found in the book of enoch.  It was an ongoing hint over and over.  Read the book of enoch if you haven't and see what I mean.  He tells many parables simular to the conents of that book, including the lazarus and the rich man parable. Which by the way the book of enoch is very clear on the preexistence of the messiah.  Jesus and his disciples knew this book well.  His brother Jude quotes from it. Jude vs. 14 Enoch 1:9 both are identical No thanks, the book of Enoch is a fable as far as I'm concerned.[/quote] Then who is it that Jesus and his disciples disagree with?  I think you said it was me in a different post, but you are blatantly disagreeing with Jude's quote and Jesus references.[/quote] Huh? I'm not disagreeing with you here, just saying that the book of Enoch is unreliable. Whether or not Yeshua is quoting the book of Enoch is of no value when you consider that, in doing so, he goes against Num 23:19. If he is God he would not forget Num 23:19 and would have never called himself “Son of Man”. If he was well studied in the Torah, he would know that calling himself “Son of Man” would be a denial that he is God according to Num 23:19, thus he used the appellation many times to let others know he was NOT God.

i had a couple thoughts

1. that was spoken at a time prior to the incarnation so nope he wasnt a man. so he is saying he isnt a man, men lie. doesnt mean he couldnt choose to become a man in the future.

2. God has changed his mind before in the OT. so what do we do with that?

3. Maybe this? Sometimes El is speaking sometimes YHVH. El never changes his mind and never assumes a form. Nobody has ever seen or heard him just ask Jesus. However, YHVH was seen by Moses, Daniel, and John. And by many many in his human avatar.

[Morningstar]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,15:22)

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,21:44) He called himself Son of Man so many times because he was using the familiar term for the messiah over and over again as found in the book of enoch.  It was an ongoing hint over and over.  Read the book of enoch if you haven't and see what I mean.  He tells many parables simular to the conents of that book, including the lazarus and the rich man parable. Which by the way the book of enoch is very clear on the preexistence of the messiah.  Jesus and his disciples knew this book well.  His brother Jude quotes from it. Jude vs. 14 Enoch 1:9 both are identical No thanks, the book of Enoch is a fable as far as I'm concerned.[/quote] Then who is it that Jesus and his disciples disagree with?  I think you said it was me in a different post, but you are blatantly disagreeing with Jude's quote and Jesus references.[/quote] Huh? I'm not disagreeing with you here, just saying that the book of Enoch is unreliable. Whether or not Yeshua is quoting the book of Enoch is of no value when you consider that, in doing so, he goes against Num 23:19. If he is God he would not forget Num 23:19 and would have never called himself “Son of Man”. If he was well studied in the Torah, he would know that calling himself “Son of Man” would be a denial that he is God according to Num 23:19, thus he used the appellation many times to let others know he was NOT God.

I had another thought.

I assume you are a follower of Jesus.

aren't you curious why Jesus and his disciples referenced this book? would Jude quote a book he considered unreliable especially by quoting it he would encourage others to reference it?

Aren't you curious why the early christians unanimously considered it scripture up until about the 4th century?

it was in the bible hundreds of years.

it was removed as canonical by catholics.

do you believe an official canon exists? if so which one? catholic, protestant, eastern orthadox, ethiopic?

the ethiopic canon still has enoch in it and has for thousands of years.

[jhenTux]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2007,18:44)

Welcome Jhen, I believe it is the Father who is God over all.  I also believe it is the Father because Jesus calls him the One TRUE God in John 17:3.

1 John 5:20

20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Isaiah 9:6-7
[6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. …

The abovementioned verses are being used by believers of Trinity, to emphasize that Christ is God. Kindly give explanations on how to deal with those verses. tnx.

[Not3in1]

Hi JT,

I have a few sites that I have enjoyed where they have a scriptural digest. In other words, they give you their ideas about what each Trinitarian verse is implying. I don't always agree with them, and ultimately the Bible and the Spirit of God is our teacher, but check it out and see if it helps you: http://www.truthortradition.com

If I may, I would suggest that you study and pray first BEFORE you attemp to debate someone on the Trinity. Having these basic scriptures down is a great start. Also, stick around here and read past posts, it has helped me tremendously.

[jhenTux]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,16:48)

Hi JT, I have a few sites that I have enjoyed where they have a scriptural digest.  In other words, they give you their ideas about what each Trinitarian verse is implying.  I don't always agree with them, and ultimately the Bible and the Spirit of God is our teacher, but check it out and see if it helps you:   http://www.truthortradition.com If I may, I would suggest that you study and pray first BEFORE you attemp to debate someone on the Trinity.  Having these basic scriptures down is a great start.  Also, stick around here and read past posts, it has helped me tremendously.

tnx for giving me the site.

[kejonn]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,22:52)

i had a couple thoughts 1. that was spoken at a time prior to the incarnation so nope he wasnt a man. so he is saying he isnt a man, men lie.  doesnt mean he couldnt choose to become a man in the future..

If this supports your belief, go ahead. Just know that scripture contradicts you.

Quote

2. God has changed his mind before in the OT.  so what do we do with that?

Did He literally “change His mind” or did He leave the people an option? Keep doing what you are doing and face the consequences, or repent, and I won't do what I said I would do. It was always predicated on man's repentence. None of this would indicate that He would change His mind about not being man, or son of man. What does this have to do with repentence? After all, before Yeshua was born, the people were not too repentent.

Quote

3. Maybe this? Sometimes El is speaking sometimes YHVH.  El never changes his mind and never assumes a form.  Nobody has ever seen or heard him just ask Jesus.  However, YHVH was seen by Moses, Daniel, and John. And by many many in his human avatar.

Yes, and we're supposed to say “Must be El speaking here, out of character for YHWH”. Sound's like a “pick and choose” theology to me. You and Mark Twain might be related

“It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand “

[kejonn]

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,23:05)

I had another thought. I assume you are a follower of Jesus.   aren't you curious why Jesus and his disciples referenced this book?  would Jude quote a book he considered unreliable especially by quoting it he would encourage others to reference it?

Just because he quoted does not give it a wholesale approval rating by him. The Bible records even in the OT that other sources are quoted that never made it into the canon.

Num 21:14  Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD, “Waheb in Suphah, And the wadis of the Arnon,

Jos 10:13  So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

2Sa 1:18  and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar.

Quote

Aren't you curious why the early christians unanimously considered it scripture up until about the 4th century?

Actually, that is a big reason to reject it. These “early christians” were eager to apply their pagan mythologies to a Jewish Messiah, and the book of Enoch was quite natural for them. I guess along the line it fell out of favor when they had pulled enough material from it to call their own.

Quote

it was in the bible hundreds of years. it was removed as canonical by catholics.

Hmmm, first the Jews rejected it, then well known anti-jews did the same. Must have rubbed too many people the wrong way.

Quote

do you believe an official canon exists?  if so which one?  catholic, protestant, eastern orthadox, ethiopic? the ethiopic canon still has enoch in it and has for thousands of years.

Well, since the book of Enoch is supposedly of ethiopic origin, why not? And the Ethiopic church has the largest bible of all churches. This proves little. Do you accept the rest of their canon?

[GeneBalthrop]

Kejonn…..> I agree with Pat, and give it an AMEN. Dont get discouraged Brother, it's very obivious The Father is giving you insight and understanding, At lest to anyone who has His Spirit in them.
Blessings and peace to you and yours……gene.

[GeneBalthrop]

Morningstar…..> it's hard to change our thinking about things we been told all our lives. But I ask you to get rid of past assumptions and start fresh and ask God the Father to show you the truth from the Lies, it does take the Spirit of God and a love for truth to see through the tangled Trinitarian web of false teachings woven for over 2000 years .

peace to you and yours…….gene

[Knightedsaint]

Man is created in the likeness of GOD as per let us make man in our likeness and in our image.
So if we look at the Trinity and at man we see the same composition as in the 3 in one.
“Man has a Spirit, a Soul, and a Body.” “God is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Mind or Soul Of GOD, And Jesus Christ is the Body.”

[Proclaimer]

The Trinity doctrine dictates that each is 100% God.

Your model states that each is 33% or some percentage at least.

[Knightedsaint]

Also man is a Triune being that is to say Tri=equals 3 and une=equals 1 so to say 3 in 1.

[Knightedsaint]

All are equal in one.

[Proclaimer]

The problem is that scripture and the commandments teach us that God is one. But others say that God is triune.

You won't find teaching of a triune in scripture. But you will find it in creeds that came hundreds of years later.

Jesus taught us that his Father is his God and our God, and John taught us that the Father is the only true God.

[Author]

Posts