The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hello JW..

I don't know what your motives are with pertaining your focus
inconsequential details of how I say certain things, but IF you have read everything I had said you would see that questioned had been answered…

I know the we don't agree on the Trinity..but JW..I have not excluded everything you've said, I think you have pointed out certain things that are important and should not be ignored, infact it should be looked upon a little bit deeper. I just hope you are able to see the whole picture of what I have written also, because I do put alot of sincerity into what I have said, I truly desire to know our Father and our Lord Jesus, at the same time fellowship with people who also have the same love for him…I believe we all can learn from one another if we JUST put our Doctrine aside…don't you think?

But if you must know ..Rev.19:13 “And he is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, And his name is CALLED THE WORD OF GOD. Christ, the glorious Head of the church, is described as on a white horse, the emblem of justice and holiness. He has many crowns, for he is King of kings, and Lord of lords. He is arrayed in a vesture dipped in his own blood, by which the Father gave him the power as Mediator; and in the blood of his enemies, over whom he always prevails. For God the Father had said it many many times in the Old Testament..a promise of Salvation His words will always comes to pass.

Gene thank you..I've noticed that we both agree on alot of things..I responded to you on Saturady about that but I accidently said it to chipwhite..but anyhow the point is I'm glad we have the same revelation from the Father..=)

Good night…and God bless..Cindy

October 2, 2007 at 6:06 am#67281

Participant

Sorry for the mis-spelled words and sentences..I'm tired..it's been long day!!

October 2, 2007 at 6:21 am#67282

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2007,16:59)

WJ…..> I want to ask you a question, if you were to have written John 1:1, would you have written it like this ,. In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.
If this is not accurate please put the proper wording in as you would have did it if you were John.
One time you put the words in like i saw them and you were right with the exception of the last part, but you were overall accurate. I am just curious……gene

If I was John and was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Gospel of John I would write it…

Jn 1:1 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Just like all the other translations…

NKJV IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

NASB – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby – Jhn 1:1 – In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

Webster – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV – Jhn 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

John was telling a story about Jesus and where he came from in John 1:1.

What better place to start than in the beginning when Jesus was there with the Father and the Holy Spirit creating all things.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Jn 1:1 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

Jn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So the story goes on and John says…

Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. (a lot of people still dont know him, wouldnt you agree?)

But then John makes an amazing announcement…

Jn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (Tabernacled) among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The same Word that was with God and was God and the one the world did not know, though the world was made by him, took on a flesh tent and was Tabernacled among us. Phil 2:5-7, Rom 8:3.

This same John speaks again of the “Word” calling him the “Eternal life” that was with the Father from the beginning confirming his statement…

Jn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1 Jn 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was **with the Father**, and was *manifested* unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Since John was telling the Story from the beginning John didnt insert Jesus into John 1:1 because Jesus hadnt yet come in the flesh and hadnt yet been given the name Jesus.

Now some would interpret John 1:1 to read…

In the beginning was the (son of God), and the (son of God) was with God, and the (son of God) was divine (or something like that).

In the beginning was the (saying,thought or Speach) and the (saying thought or speach) was with God, and the (saying thought or speach) was God.

However if John would have believed that he would have wrote it that way. But he didnt.

Many would disagree with 100s of scholars over the interpretation of Jn 1:1, but usually they are those who have no credentuals for changing the interpretation of the text.

2 Pet 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

October 2, 2007 at 6:44 am#67283

Participant

Quote (seeking the truth @ Oct. 02 2007,18:03)

Hello JW..

Good night…and God bless..Cindy

STT

You say…

Quote

My motive is to test all things and prove all things like the Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if these things were so.

Sorry, but I did not see the answer in your post and still dont.

You say…

Quote

But if you must know ..Rev.19:13 “And he is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, And his name is CALLED THE WORD OF GOD. Christ,…

This passage says Yeshua has the “Name” the “Word of God”, not that he is the spoken word or Gods speach.

The Word of God proceeds from Yeshua, this is why he has the name…

Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The sharp sword proceeding out of Yeshuas mouth is the “Word of God”, according to Heb 4:12 and Eph 6:17.

Also Heb 1:3 says…

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word (Yeshuas) of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

BTW, I am not a “JW” but a “WJ”?

Blessings!

October 2, 2007 at 7:34 am#67289

IM4Truth

Participant

Cindy that is our Daughters name too, I like that name.

Peace and Love Mrs.

October 2, 2007 at 3:19 pm#67310

Participant

WJ…..> what i wanted to know was how you with you trinitarian belief would have written it. I think the one you quoted as (son of God) is proberly more acurate to your belief. Because you as well as i know Jesus said the words he spoke were not His. He simple relayed God's words to us, in fact he clearly said he did. Now John fully knowing that, why would he say the word was God to show Jesus was God when he showed where Jesus said the words weren't his. He would never used that logic, if he intended to mean Jesus was God he would Just simply have said He was if that was his point wouldn't you think, or have written it like you showed some believe. To use John 1:1 as a proof text of Jesus being God ,you even in your mind have to change the Actual meaning of the word (WORD) to mean a person right.
Lets not skirt off to all kind of other texts lets just stick with this one first and see if we can find common ground first .
your fellow truth seeker……..gene

October 2, 2007 at 3:28 pm#67312

Participant

WJ….> you said John was telling a story about Jesus and where he came from rigth. Then why didn't he just simply use his name instead of the word (word). Don't you agree Jesus said the words wern't His. Please answer these simple questions . peace gene

October 2, 2007 at 4:19 pm#67314

Participant

I agree with you Gene..it's about simplicity but for some reason , some just would not accept simplicity. Jesus totally relied on the Father..His words He spoke was not his, his powers to heal the sick, feed the hunger, raised the dead, and cast demons were from the Father..

John simple said the “Word”… because the word is of God and the word was God….

Jesus is not mentioned till verse 14..

What do you think Gene??

IAM4TRUTH..I had no idea your daughter's name is also Cindy…
Well you've a chosen a perfect Name for her..I bet she's as sweet as her mother=)..Blessing to you and your family..

October 2, 2007 at 5:22 pm#67318

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 03 2007,03:19)

Why didnt you address the scriptures that says the “Word” is the pre-incarnat Jesus?

No Jesus was not the Son of God untill he came in the flesh.

Can you give me a scripture?

October 2, 2007 at 5:35 pm#67320

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 03 2007,03:28)

Gnostisism was a real problem in his day.

Some believed that Jesus just appeared without being born in the flesh.

John did not want to give fuel to them to say that Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son.

So he refers to Yeshua as the “Word”.

He was in the “form of God” but was Spirit like the Father without flesh.

Phil 2:5-7

The context is not hard to understand that John was talking about Jesus until he was tabernacled among us, took on a flesh tent.

Jesus is a Spirit being who know lives in a glorified body, but it is not a mortal body like ours for it has been changed when he was glorified.

We also are Spirit beings who live in a body of flesh.

1 Cor 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

October 2, 2007 at 5:48 pm#67322

Participant

Quote (seeking the truth @ Oct. 03 2007,04:19)

John simple said the “Word”… because the word is of God and the word was God….

Jesus is not mentioned till verse 14..

What do you think Gene??

IAM4TRUTH..I had no idea your daughter's name is also Cindy…
Well you've a chosen a perfect Name for her..I bet she's as sweet as her mother=)..Blessing to you and your family..

STT

Its quite simple. If the “Word” was God and the “Word” is a saying of God. Then you are saying God is his own speech or saying.

You also would be saying the “Father” came in the flesh.

Jn 1:1 dosnt lend itelf to that.

The “Word” cannot change. So if the “Word was God” and the 'Word' was tabernacled among us then the “Word” that was God before the incarnation is still God. And that “Word” according to 1 Jn 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13-15 is Yeshua!!!

October 2, 2007 at 5:50 pm#67323

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 03 2007,03:28)

Then why didnt John just use the “Son of God” instead of the “Word”?

I have explained this in my long post.

October 2, 2007 at 5:52 pm#67324

IM4Truth

Participant

seeking truth That is so sweet of you to say!!!! Yes our Daughter is sweet also, Cindy.

You taking on the trinity with W.J.? Good luck.

Peac and Love Mrs.:D

October 2, 2007 at 6:58 pm#67326

Participant

Hi IAM4TRUTH..

I give up, my intetion was never to go on a debate with someone, but to share my knowledge on the word of God..And most of you have been wonderful of giving me feedbacks, and correcting me when I'm wrong or wether I was going off the scriptures or not..like you have=)..(thanks!)..But I know my understanding are simple and it makes since because you all confirmed this ..

I don't want to miss the “mark” I don't want to make the scripturee to say more then what it say, or less then what it says…But I truly believe if one might think that some scriptures might contradict it self..they should just go back and read what Jesus said, He said alot about the Father and where he was from, why he was sent and so on…He was the one who told us how to pray, AND HOW WE SHOULD PRAY. The Lord's Prayer itself tells us alot..

But anyhow I'm not going to go on debate with you on this WJ…You have a great understanding with the scriptures but i think you go over board at times, this is just my opinon..no offence..I guess we both just have to agree to this dis-agree..We both know we will not change each others opinion on this matter..Just like how I will never go back to catholism..

October 2, 2007 at 7:32 pm#67331

Mr. Steve

Participant

Seeking the Truth;

It's always refreshing to read your posts. It's particularly nice to read a post from someone that knows the difference between the Son of God and God.

Most of the troubled views of the Godhead include a presumption from John 1:1 that Jesus is the Word. I John 5 says that three bear witness in heaven; the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. This was written many years after Christ ascended to heaven where he was prior. God does not change. The Word still bears witness in heaven, as the does the Spirit of God a/k/a the Holy Ghost, and the Father.

Most of the troubled views of the Godhead also believe that Jesus is Jehovah. This is another presumption that contradicts what the scripture says- He is the Son of God.

Another popular error is the Jesus is the eternal Son of God. This states that the Son always existed, thereby denying the truth the he was begotten by God sometime before the foundation of the world.

The truth is the path to loving God, not necessarily a particular doctrine. What I have witnessed is that some love their doctrine despite what the word teaches which is a very subtle way for the enemy to sidetrack sincere believers and hinder their growth. The key is to be a lover of truth, not a lover of any particular doctrine. As the Holy Spirit continues to reveal truth to us we will grow and see more clearly until one day we see him face to face.

Take care

Steven

October 2, 2007 at 7:38 pm#67333

IM4Truth

Participant

seeking the truth Cindy you were a Catholic? Boy there are a lot of former Catholics on here. So was I. But we were also in the W.W.Church of God were we kept the Sabbath for 10 years. Regardless what ken says about the W.W.Church of God the Holy Spirit was present with People. I can testify to that. We were Baptized according to Scripture in that Church and the first week after we were baptized was amazing. The Holy Spirit told me big time what I did wrong. Especially the little things like what some call Love cursing, but I think cursing is cursing now. Just an example. What do you mean I go overboard?Laugh? I like to be told so don't hold back.
Not going on a Debate with Worshipping Jesus, we call Him W.J. I don't know if you knew that, I think is a good idea.
Peace and Love Mrs.

October 2, 2007 at 7:59 pm#67337

kejonn

Participant

Quote (seeking the truth @ Oct. 02 2007,13:58)

Hi IAM4TRUTH..

STT,

Yes, there is much more we can do here than debating the trinity. I know it was something I was into for some time, but there comes a point where you have established your belief and you accept it for truth in your life. We have to realize that when it comes to matters of faith, “truth” is not always as simple as we'd like. After all, Muslims think they have the truth, as do Hindus, Sikhs, etc. Thus, the truth we know is the one that has been shown to us through the Spirit and scripture.

Sometimes the best way to “debate” is to just share what you've been shown and let it rest there. Unless someone can reveal something different to you than what you've already seen, “it is what it is”. The reason this happens is because many people do not come into these discussions with an open mind and heart — they are just determined to show you they are right. And in their own life, they are “right”.

I hope you stick around for other discussions.

LG & LP,
Kevin

October 2, 2007 at 8:47 pm#67339

Participant

Quote (seeking the truth @ Oct. 03 2007,04:19)

John simple said the “Word”… because the word is of God and the word was God….

Jesus is not mentioned till verse 14..

What do you think Gene??

IAM4TRUTH..I had no idea your daughter's name is also Cindy…
Well you've a chosen a perfect Name for her..I bet she's as sweet as her mother=)..Blessing to you and your family..

seeking the truth…..> you have it exactly right, the truth is so simple, you don't have to say (the word) means a person or say, this doesn't mean what is say's, unless there is a translation error. And whats even better once you see how the Father worked through his son, the man Jesus, you recieve great hope in knowing He can do the same thing through Us also. Jesus wasn't God, doing God's work, but God was doing (HIS) work through his son, the Man Jesus, our brother in every way. WE truly do see it eye to eye. You could not have gotten that clear of an understanding unless God was showing you. And isn't it amazing how many other scriptures clear up when you understand Jesus was Not God……….Its refreshing to see how The Father is showing more and more people the truth…..peace to you and yours……a fellow lover of the truth……gene

October 2, 2007 at 8:57 pm#67342

chipwhite

Participant

To all I agree with seeking truth, my intention also is not to debate but to share what I currently believe( for now we see but a poor reflection in a mirror one day we shall know face to face.)
although I will admit the debates have sharpened me quiet a bit and also gave me a clearer understanding through looking at it from a different perspectives I am thankfull to all here for their contributions to the disscusions I have read thus far especially when we dissagree without being dissagreeable that can only be done in the Spirit. God Bless all

October 2, 2007 at 9:25 pm#67345