The Trinity Doctrine

[Not3in1]

WELCOME Truth Seeker,

I like your Avatar! And I'm glad that you are here. God bless you as you share the truth you know.
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 01 2007,22:32)

W.J. You are a really nice person, and I sincerley mean that. When you disagree you don't make it a big deal. Your last post for intance all it said ” Go figure” I appreciate you even tho I don't agree with you on the trinity. Peace and Love Mrs.

Im4truth

Thanks for the kind words!

Blessings.      

Three smillies. One for each of the Godhead.

Love you Sis!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 02 2007,04:07)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 01 2007,22:32) W.J. You are a really nice person, and I sincerley mean that. When you disagree you don't make it a big deal. Your last post for intance all it said ” Go figure” I appreciate you even tho I don't agree with you on the trinity. Peace and Love Mrs. I agree wholeheartedly! WJ has ministered to me on a number of occassions.  He has called me “sister” even though we disagree about foundational teachings.  I have seen the fruit of the Spirit in his life and heart.  We all disagree at times and passion for the truth we know makes us rise up and stand firm, but I do believe that WJ's purpose here is multi-purpose (to teach, defend, prayer, encouragement – I've seen all of these at work). I think t8 just meant that WJ is a good defender of the Trinity doctrine.  They both have debated quite heavily on the subject, and when they do, it's interesting to observe.  So, thanks to both brother's!

Not3

Thanks. Hope you are doing well. Believing for your healing!

Blessings!

Luv you too.  

[Mr. Steve]

To all;

Does God change? Does he word ever pass away?

I John 5 says that there are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.

Some contend vigorously that Jesus was the Word of God before coming to earth, not the Son of God. The above scripture was written many years after Christ's ascension. It still reads that the Word bears witness in heaven. The Word is God and is with the Father. The Holy Ghost in some passages is also identified as the Spirit of God. Hence, when we refer to the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost we are referring to God in some manner.

John 1:1 does not say the Word was the Son of God. Jesus even said many times that the Word that he spoke unto them did not belong to him but to the Father. The Word was made flesh in Christ. Jesus said the Father was with him. Indeed, he was begotten by him. John the Baptist said that he gave not spirit by measure unto Christ. So the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ including the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.

In John 1 the scripture says that Christ dwelt in the bosom of the Father and declared the Father. It does not say that Christ sat on the right hand of God until after he ascended. Jesus did not sit at the right hand of God until he overcame. His promise to us is in the same manner.

Take Care

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2007,03:26)

t8……When we were debating the trinity issue, You will notice I would always go back to very simple straight forward scriptures that Jesus Himself said. like for instance “, For Thou Art The ONLY true God”> but you never accepted them for their simple meanning. You would apply a trinitarian twist to them, and that would fustrate me as you did other scriptures we talked about, and at the same time saying you were showing straight forward sctiptures defending the trintiy theology. I showed you direct quotes from some of the top scholars who said when really pressed they would have to say they did not understand it, these men were trinitarians and top scholars they said it was mystery they couldn't explaine. So if its a “mystery” that can't be explained, why defend it as if it weren't, if your best can see that why you accept that also. Look i know we locked up at times over the issue of the trinity, but i do respect you and think you are quite sincere in your belief of what i conceder a false teaching……peace gene

GB

Yes but I have also shown “Unambiguos scriptures” calling Jesus God.

Yet you also choose to read them the way you see them.

John 17:3 is not proof positive that Jesus is not God.

But there are scriptures that are proof he is.

So because we disagree is no reason to accuse one another of lieing or being disingenuos in our beliefs for we can read into the scriptures differently or as we choose to believe.

Remember John penned Jn 17:3 and would be the one to best describe what he heard Jesus saying by putting his name in the 3rd verse next to the Father as one to believe in for Eternal Life.

1 Jn 1:1-3 describes Yeshua as the “Eternal Life” calling him the “Word”, which confirms Jn 1:1 which says the “Word was God”. The resemblance of the 3 verses Jn 1:1 and 1Jn 1:1,2  is striking…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1Jn 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Then John ends the epistle with…

1Jn 5:20 NET Bible
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. *This one* is the true God and eternal life.

Here is some commentary of this verse…

The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

Compare this with John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Isa 1:18 explains this very well here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….79;st=0

So John 17:3 based on these scriptures is at best unambiguous in proving the Trinity wrong. IMO

The Trinitarian position in “My Opinion” best reconciles all scriptures without leaving contradictions.

Blessings  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 02 2007,03:29)

WJ….if I have offended you in the past i ask for your forgivness…….gene

GB

No problem. No hard feelings!

Blessings

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 02 2007,05:05)

To all; Does God change?  Does he word ever pass away?   I John 5 says that there are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.   Some contend vigorously that Jesus was the Word of God before coming to earth, not the Son of God.  The above scripture was written many years after Christ's ascension.  It still reads that the Word bears witness in heaven.  The Word is God and is with the Father.  The Holy Ghost in some passages is also identified as the Spirit of God.  Hence, when we refer to the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost we are referring to God in some manner.   John 1:1 does not say the Word was the Son of God.  Jesus even said many times that the Word that he spoke unto them did not belong to him but to the Father.  The Word was made flesh in Christ. Jesus said the Father was with him.  Indeed, he was begotten by him.  John the Baptist said that he gave not spirit by measure unto Christ.  So the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ including the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.   In John 1 the scripture says that Christ dwelt in the bosom of the Father and declared the Father.  It does not say that Christ sat on the right hand of God until after he ascended.  Jesus did not sit at the right hand of God until he overcame.  His promise to us is in the same manner.   Take Care Steven

mr steve

You say…

Quote

Does God change?  Does he word ever pass away?   I John 5 says that there are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.   Some contend vigorously that Jesus was the Word of God before coming to earth, not the Son of God.  The above scripture was written many years after Christ's ascension.  It still reads that the Word bears witness in heaven.

There is several problems I think you have.

First of all I wish we could say 1 Jn 5:7 was an unambiguous scripture, for it would surely confirm the Trinity doctrine. However, the verse is ambiguous.

Its called the “Comma Johanneum” and is not found in any of the Newer translations of the scriptures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

How ever it is found in some manuscripts and is referenced by some of the Early Fathers…
http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp

Personal I believe it was tampered with by the “Arains”. However I have no proof of this.

Even so it is ambiguous.

Secondly, concerning Yeshua being the “Word” I think John makes very clear that he is by comparing scripture with scripture and letting scripture interpret themselves.

Scholars believe that Revelations was written around 70-80s AD.

Rev 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The Gospel of John and 1 Jn is believed to be written 90-100 AD.

I believe John ascribed the term “Word” to Yeshua because he saw him with the name in Revelations.

At any rate John clearly tells us who the “Word” is in 1 Jn 5:1-3.

Another point you make is the Word cannot change.

Which I agree. So if the “Word” was God and became flesh then the Word is still God which means Yeshua is God in the flesh.

Either way, if you believe the “Word” is the spoken word of God or the 'Word” is Yeshua and the “Word” was God in John 1:1 and the “Word” cannot change, nor can God change, then according to Jn 1:1 and 1:14 and Phil 2:6-8, Jesus is still God.

Blessings  

[seeking the truth]

Hello everyone..

JW said {Jesus was not a created being. John says…
He is the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father in the beginning., confirming John 1-3 that Jesus is the Word and the Life that was with God and was God.

There is no scripture that says the pre-incarnate Yeshua had a beginning.

Hope this helps.}

This is also True just like what I said about the WORD of God(You can read it back it's on page 870)..

But though he(Jesus) might not have a beginning because he was with GOD just like God's Thoughts and wisdom is with God and IN God.

He was brought forth in the fulness of time therefore his physical birth had a beginning. Even though His purpose, mission, his birth was foretold hundreds of years before, God already had him in mind, God thoughts is beyond ours so therefore when God thinks of it , before being spoken has already taken an action. We know this is to be true God brought time and space and matter into existence by simply uttering a word and they exist, creation is the work of God.

Therefore we cannot seperate God and his wisdom, but however his words can be distinguised between functional subordination and ontological equality.We speak of Christ as the “Word” of God, God's “speech” in living form. “Judaism understood God's Word to have almost autonomous powers and substance once spoken; to be, in fact, 'a concrete reality, a veritable cause.'” (Richard N. Longenecker, The Christology of Early Jewish Christianity , 145.)
The word then became distinguished from the Father when it cameforth: What had been promised to Israel — that the Savior would come from the seed of Abraham and David — was meticulously fulfilled, as documented in both Old and New Testament genealogies. Fulfillment was part of the preaching of the Gospel, because God's Word is always fulfilled and never comes back void.

Example of the Gospel' fullment/God's words come to pass..

Protevangelium: “The woman said, 'The serpent deceived me, and I ate.'
So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field…
And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” Gen 3:13-15

Abrahamic Covenant: “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, 'I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.' Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.

Mosaic Covenant: “And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
'You shall have no other gods before Me.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. The Tabernacle of Moses and the Ten Commandment.

Davidic Covenant: “I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.’ ” 2 Samuel 7:8-16

New Covenant: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

“But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their MINDS, and WRITE IT on their HEARTS; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34

Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid… our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment….
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.

When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities….
He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
Isaiah 53:10-12

You see everything will always work according to His plan. Everything that He foretold in the Old Testament has been or will be fulfilled in His perfect, planned time. God's Purpose before he began his creation is obvious, that God's will and the Kingdom are to be in earth as they are in Heaven. This was the first point noted in the Lord's prayer. See we know that God's will and the Kingdom are to be in earth as they are in Heaven, this was his purpose for creating us. God made man in His image. That was for the purpose of putting God's life into Adam so that this life might manifest adequately through man. He made man in a “shape” that would best suit His purpose in flowing through man into this world, and thereby expressing Himself.

The purpose of the Kingdom and the means it will expand in the earth is actually grander and greater than the purpose that is already fulfilled in Heaven. He reigns in Heaven. But He desires to rule in earth now. And the manner in which he will rule in earth is quite a bit more involved, deeper and more grand than the manner in which He rules in Heaven. In earth He chose to make “bottles”/ “vessel”(Tabrnacles) for His form all over the world. And He desired to fill those bottles with His Spirit
through which He would influence the material realm with His Spirit and thus rule in the physical domain.

You see Jesus is truly is first for he is the first man to be indwelled by God's fulness and he was the first man to be raised from the dead in this sence he overcame what God wanted him to do. He is the second Adam because he truly was a man just like us, the difference was he had God's Spirit in him, as far as I am concerned God only made 2 man, Adam through his dieobidience many were made sinners,even so through the obidience of One other Man many will be made righteous…

God's purpose is for us all to be like Jesus the second Man, but really the first because this was God's purpose in the beginning before the world even existed. The word became flesh. God's word is always fulfilled. Jesus is the fulfillment of the word, therfore he is the WORD.

Blessing Cindy..

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

I've never heard of the arian tampering with scripture. Wasn't that doctrine 250 years later?

I John 5:1-3 doesn't even mention the Word. It references Christ as begotten of God and that we love him that is begotten of him.

Just because God was in Christ does not make him God. God is in him just as God is in us. But that doesn't make us God. We are children of God.

Take Care

Steven

[Mr. Steve]

Seeking the Truth;

I agree with you that Christ was the first to be filled with the fullness of God and that many shall follow. Romans 8:29 He also said the disciple is not above his Lord but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. He also said that he that is faithful over his house will be made ruler over all his goods.

Jesus also gave parables including the leaven and the bread which speak of the fullness of the spirit. The kingdom of God is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three meals of measure until the whole was leavened.

Every time Jesus said God was his Father, he was implicity declaring that he had a beginning because he was also stating he was the Son of God which requires to be begotten by him.

If we fulfill the word are we the Word? Jesus said the doctrine that he preached was not his, but his Father's. Christ delivered the Word. He is the way to God, but he is not God. He is the truth, the life, and the way to God, but still the Son of God after all is fulfillled. The seed is the Word of God. Luke 8:11

Jesus gave an interesting illustration that is rarely discussed. He said unless a kernel of wheat fall to the ground and die it abideth alone. But if it dies, it bringeth forth much fruit. Christ indeed was that seed of God which came down from heaven and died for us which now brings forth much fruit.

Take Care

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 02 2007,07:24)

WJ; I've never heard of the arian tampering with scripture.  Wasn't that doctrine 250 years later?   I John 5:1-3 doesn't even mention the Word.  It references Christ as begotten of God and that we love him that is begotten of him. Just because God was in Christ does not make him God. God is in him just as God is in us.  But that doesn't make us God.  We are children of God. Take Care Steven

Mr steve

My opology.

Its 1 Jn 1:1-3.

And when I say “Arains” I mean those who were apossed to the “Deity of Christ”.

Blessings!

[Mr. Steve]

WJ;

Okay.

When you say deity of Christ, do you mean that they were opposed to Christ's pre-existence, that he was the Son of God, or otherwise? The reason I'm asking is that there appears to be various understandings of the deity of Christ. I've found it difficult to find information on this term, perhaps you could give me some insight.

Christ is exalted by God as Lord over heaven and earth. If a person believes that would you agree they believe in the deity of Christ?

Thank you

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 02 2007,08:54)

WJ; Okay. When you say deity of Christ, do you mean that they were opposed to Christ's pre-existence, that he was the Son of God, or otherwise?  The reason I'm asking is that there appears to be various understandings of the deity of Christ.  I've found it difficult to find information on this term, perhaps you could give me some insight. Christ is exalted by God as Lord over heaven and earth.  If a person believes that would you agree they believe in the deity of Christ? Thank you Steven

mr steve

Generally when Cristians refer to “Deity” the are speaking of the “Nature” or “Divine Nature” of God.

Deity..
1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY b capitalized : GOD 1, : SUPREME BEING
2 : a god or goddess
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Deity

It can imply “Pre-existence” with Yeshua because Trinitarians believe that Yeshua according to Jn 1:1 was God (deity).

The arian contraversy over the Deity of Christ began long before Arius was born. The writings of many of the early church Fathers confirm this.

More info on Arianism found here…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius

Blessings  

[Worshipping Jesus]

mr steve

Ignatius was the third bishop of Rome and was a disciple of the Beloved John who leaned on Jesus breast. The Apostle John we believe wrote the Gospel of John as well as 1st 2nd and third John.

The writtings of Ignatuis have been rejected as part of the Cannon however they give some real good insight on the mindset of the early Christians.

Polycarp also knew John. Here is where you can read some of their writtings…

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html
http://biblefacts.org/ecf/indexv1.html

[seeking the truth]

Hi Steve,

You said”If we fulfill the word are we the Word?  Jesus said the doctrine that he preached was not his, but his Father's.  Christ delivered the Word.  He is the way to God, but he is not God.  He is the truth, the life, and the way to God, but still the Son of God after all is fulfillled.  The seed is the Word of God. Luke 8:11″

I agree with you I should of said this at the end. He is is the “messenger” of God. “The seed is the word of God.” “Therefore if we fulfill the word are we the word?” The answer would be..No, we don't become THE Word, rather we become what the WORD said.

In Matthew 28:19, Christ gave His apostles the instruction to [baptize] in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

What does this scripture actually mean? Does it validate the trinity?..

We know  the Father and Son have a name and the Holy Spirit conveys or bears that name of God's Children.

The  disciples were to  baptize in the name of the Father, because it is the Father of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named (Eph. 3:15). In other words, the Father is the Head of the house the family and traditionally carry the name of the father. Also, it is God's (the Fathers) goodness that leads one to the recognition and repentance of his sins (Rom. 2:4).

Apostles were also to baptize in the name of the Son, because His death, in our stead, makes salvation possible (Rom. 5:8, II Pet. 3:9).

And they were also to baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit, because the Father uses that Spirit. HIS Spirit as the power through which the begettal is performed (Rom. 8:16).

This is what the passage means! God gives Christians His Holy Spirit, which is His SEED. When they receive that seed, it gives them Gods name they become heirs with Jesus Christ.  

John said about the seed within converted people: Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (I John 3:9). The Greek word for seed is SPERMA, from which comes the English word sperm. The Holy Spirit is the sperm or seed of God.

Another scripture, adding light to what the seed of God is: Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again [begotten], NOT of corruptible seed, but of INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever (I Pet. 1:22-23).

So then, does Matthew 28:19 establish the Trinity? Clearly not! It simply reveals that when we are baptized, we are given Gods name through His Spirit.

Romans 8:9: But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

This passage represents what could be called the Christian DNA test. Everyone recognizes that one must have a mans genes to be his biological child. God is the same. Without Gods Spirit, one cannot be His begotten child.

Bless you all…Cindy

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 01 2007,16:41)

Why sugar coat it t8? Just say that I am a liar and deciever and that I am here just to promote false doctrine to lead people astray. Further more why dont you just say I have a wicked and evil heart and I dont even know Jesus.

No I won't say that.

You are here to defend a doctrine instituted by man. That is what I say.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 01 2007,16:41)

t8 isnt this the reason you created this sight. To defend “your truth” against the Trinity? Why should it be wrong for someone to come to your open forum and defend their truth when as you say they should be seeking the truth when they come here. So would you have them just hear “Your Truth” or one side. If all you want to be said here is just your truth then maybe you should limit the sight to just what you believe. Then see how many would come.

This website is a place where people can let scripture show us the truth. It was never about defending my truth. I am here to learn just as anyone should be.

It was others who came here and made me defend what I believe and that is a good thing anyway. But the idea is that people in unity would search out scripture together. But in this the Pharisees cannot help themselves and will show up. Then they will take their traditions and nullify anything that doesn't agree with it.

But it is still true that some come here to let scriptural truth change them and others to defend doctrines irrespective of scripture.

I was stating a fact.

And guess what, if no one turned up, then that makes no difference to the truth. Jesus was willing to let 5000 go in one day, because they weren't that faithful.

It is not about quantity, it has always been about quality.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (seeking the truth @ Oct. 02 2007,07:16)

Hello everyone.. JW said {Jesus was not a created being. John says… He is the “Eternal Life” that was with the  Father in the beginning., confirming  John 1-3 that Jesus is the Word and the Life that was with God and was God. There is no scripture that says the pre-incarnate Yeshua had a beginning. Hope this helps.} This is also True just like what I said about the WORD of God(You can read it back it's on page 870).. But though he(Jesus) might not have a beginning because he was with GOD just like  God's Thoughts and wisdom is with God and IN God. He was brought forth in the fulness of time therefore  his physical birth had a beginning. Even though His purpose, mission, his birth was  foretold hundreds of years before, God already had him in mind, God thoughts is beyond ours so therefore when God thinks of it , before being spoken has already taken an action. We know this is to be true  God brought time and space and matter into existence by simply uttering  a word and they exist, creation is the work of God. Therefore we cannot seperate God and his wisdom, but   however his words can be distinguised between functional subordination and ontological equality.We speak of Christ as the “Word” of God, God's “speech” in living form. “Judaism understood God's Word to have almost autonomous powers and substance once spoken; to be, in fact, 'a concrete reality, a veritable cause.'” (Richard N. Longenecker, The Christology of Early Jewish Christianity , 145.) The word then became distinguished from the Father when it cameforth: What had been promised to Israel — that the Savior would come from the seed of Abraham and David — was meticulously fulfilled, as documented in both Old and New Testament genealogies. Fulfillment was part of the preaching of the Gospel, because God's Word is always fulfilled and never comes back void. Example of the Gospel' fullment/God's words come to pass.. Protevangelium: “The woman said, 'The serpent deceived me, and I ate.' So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field… And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.”  Gen 3:13-15 Abrahamic  Covenant: “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, 'I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.' Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Mosaic  Covenant: “And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 'You shall have no other gods before Me.     “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. The Tabernacle of Moses and the Ten Commandment. Davidic Covenant: “I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.’ ”  2 Samuel 7:8-16 New Covenant: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.     “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their MINDS, and WRITE IT on their HEARTS; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”  Jeremiah 31:31-34 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid… our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment…. For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities…. He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” Isaiah 53:10-12 You see everything will always work according to His plan. Everything that He foretold in the Old Testament has been or will be fulfilled in His perfect, planned time. God's Purpose before he began his creation is obvious, that God's will and the Kingdom are to be in earth as they are in Heaven.  This was the first point noted in the Lord's prayer. See we know that God's will and the Kingdom are to be in earth as they are in Heaven, this was his purpose for creating us. God made man in His image.  That was for the purpose of putting God's life into Adam so that this life might manifest adequately through man.  He made man in a “shape” that would best suit His purpose in flowing through man into this world, and thereby expressing Himself. The purpose of the Kingdom and the means it will expand in the earth is actually grander and greater than the purpose that is already fulfilled in Heaven.  He reigns in Heaven.  But He desires to rule in earth now.  And the manner in which he will rule in earth is quite a bit more involved, deeper and more grand than the manner in which He rules in Heaven.  In earth He chose to make “bottles”/ “vessel”(Tabrnacles) for His form all over the world.  And He desired to fill those bottles with His Spirit through which He would influence the material realm with His Spirit and thus rule in the physical domain. You see Jesus is truly is first for he is the first man to be indwelled by God's fulness and he was the first man to be raised from the dead in this sence he overcame what God wanted him to do. He is the second Adam because he truly was a man just like us, the difference was he had God's Spirit in him, as far as I am concerned God only made 2 man, Adam through his dieobidience many were made sinners,even so through the obidience of One other Man many will be made righteous… God's purpose is for us all to be like Jesus the second Man, but really the first because this was God's  purpose in the beginning before the world even existed. The word became flesh. God's word is always fulfilled. Jesus is the fulfillment of the word, therfore he is the WORD. Blessing Cindy..

seeking truth…….> good post i see it alot like that also. Jesus was in the plan of God, But came into being at his berth through Mary, and God wants to indweel us Just as he does Jesus. In that way God will be all and in all. Good insight……….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

STT

You say…

Quote

We speak of Christ as the “Word” of God, God's “speech” in living form.

Can you give me a scripture that says Jesus is the “Word of God” or “Gods Speech”?

Blessings

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…..> I want to ask you a question, if you were to have written John 1:1, would you have written it like this ,. In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.
If this is not accurate please put the proper wording in as you would have did it if you were John.
One time you put the words in like i saw them and you were right with the exception of the last part, but you were overall accurate. I am just curious……gene

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