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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 13 2012,08:33) ……..he still has his roots from mankind the same as I.
Yes, he is a son of man according to his flesh. But he also had glory alongside his God before the world was created through him. You didn't.He came down from heaven to do the will of his Father. You didn't.
He existed in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being. You didn't.
So YES, there are many similarities between us and our Lord. But there are also many differences.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2012,13:03) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 13 2012,08:33) ……..he still has his roots from mankind the same as I.
Yes, he is a son of man according to his flesh. But he also had glory alongside his God before the world was created through him. You didn't.He came down from heaven to do the will of his Father. You didn't.
He existed in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being. You didn't.
So YES, there are many similarities between us and our Lord. But there are also many differences.
peace,
mike
Mike……We also existed with God before the creation of this world, We were as much as Jesus in the Plan and will of GOD from the very beginning of creation. But we did not come forth until the proper time just as Jesus did. We also have Glory and honor with the Father before the world ever existed, how ? It is God the Fathers Goal and Will to bring all of mankind to that preexisting glory we always had with him from the beginning of creation.As far as coming down from God all creation came down from God And when we receive the Holy Spirit we than become Born from above and become Spiritual Son and Daughters of God , by his seed (Holy Spirit) that abides in us Just as it did with the Man, or Son of Man, Jesus the Christ the Anointed one.
Jesus has been highly exulted for now , He will come and set up His kingdom on this earth with his brothers and sisters who are called Saints of the Most High. His kingdom Will last for Thousand years and then He will hand it over to God the Father and become a subject to it , Just as it says, that God may be all and in you all
Mike what bothers me about the Doctrine that separates is it creates a Schism between Jesus and his brothers and sisters, and God and Mankind. It portrays Man as some lesser creation of God, it discourages man from his belief in God's ability to work in and through an ordinary man
Mike no one can show me one advantage or reason for God to use a preexisting being of any kind to do a work in humanity and even worse why would he try to disguise him as a human being if he did so, that would be deceptive on his part when in fact he would not have been a pure human being. What example would that be to anyone if God did it that way?
I wish you would just take some time and at least consider what i am telling you brother. I tell you it makes a big difference when you begin to see Jesus as a ordinary human being brought forth at the proper time in the plan and will of God.
You will see Jesus differently and draw much closer to him brother than you ever have, because your will be relating with in a real sense, it does make a difference Mike.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 14 2012,08:42) Mike no one can show me one advantage or reason for God to use a preexisting being of any kind to do a work in humanity………
I can't see an “advantage” to God killing Uzzah for trying to stabilize the ark.I can't see an “advantage” for God not making us immortal from the very beginning.
I can't see an “advantage” for God having Saul be the first king of Israel, knowing in advance how he would fail.
It doesn't matter how WE think things should have been done, Gene. It only matters how scriptures say they WERE done.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 14 2012,08:42) I wish you would just take some time and at least consider what i am telling you brother.
Gene,You been telling us the same exact thing for years. We HAVE considered everything you've said. It's just that what YOU say doesn't align with what the SCRIPTURES say.
peace,
mikeMike,
God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death.
The angels objected to man eating of the tree of life and the fact is that man would have still been bound to sin, even if he had eaten of the tree of life in order to counter the mortality effect of the fruit that brought death.
I have no desire to be like the fallen angels.
Mike……….Lets just consider one of you explanations now. You have said “you could not see the advantage of God not making us immortal from the beginning”, He did, as Kerwin said, But God let man be the cause of his own death by sinning, but not without “purpose”. But let consider something else also, you like music as i recall Right? So let consider a song here song by Garth Brooks.
The Dance
Looking back on the Memory of the Dance we shared under the stars above, for a moment all the world was right, How could i have know that you would say good by . No i am glad i didn't “KNOW” which way it all would end, which way it all would Go. Our “lives” are better left to Chance, i could have missed the “Pain” but i would have to “miss” the “DANCE. If i would have only known which way the King would fall whose to say i might have changed it all , No i glad i didn't know which way it all would end which way it all would go, i might have missed the “pain” but i would have had to “miss” the “dance”. Yes my life is better left to chance , I might have missed the “Pain” but i had to “miss” the “Dance”.
Apply these words to life in general, Think about it Mike.
There is more to our failures then we Now realize brothers, our gains are being made, by our losses. This life as it is serves a great purpose “IN” us all brothers. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2012,16:03) Mike, God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death.
The angels objected to man eating of the tree of life and the fact is that man would have still been bound to sin, even if he had eaten of the tree of life in order to counter the mortality effect of the fruit that brought death.
I have no desire to be like the fallen angels.
kQuote God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death. and why did God also planted the tree of LIVE
?mike
DT 10:8 At that time the LORD set apart the tribe of Levi to carry the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to serve Him and to bless in His name until this day.
Uzzah,was not of the tribe of Levi and so he knew he could not touch the ark,
God does not joke,
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2012,04:03) Mike, God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death.
Show me the scripture that says God originally made mankind immortal, Kerwin.Are you suggesting that the tree of life was there as an “antidote” to eating from the tree of knowledge?
And if that's the case, then WHY did God even put the tree of life there in the first place, knowing that it could only be useful IF they ate from the other tree first?
And why would he put it there in the first place, just to prohibit man from eating of it after he ate of the first tree?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 16 2012,09:55) mike Uzzah,was not of the tribe of Levi and so he knew he could not touch the ark,
Pierre and Gene,The point of my three examples was not to divert the subject into explanations of those three examples.
They were just three things off the top of my head that I used to show Gene that it doesn't matter what WE see an advantage in – it only matters what the scriptures teach.
So the fact that GENE doesn't see an advantage in God sending a pre-existing spirit son to atone for our sins doesn't matter in the least – because God doesn't base the things He does on whether or not GENE is able to see an advantage in them.
Mike,
Quote Show me the scripture that says God originally made mankind immortal, Kerwin. I already did and therefore fact that you ask this questions infers you understood neither Scripture or me. So please center yourself and consider that a man is told that if he comits a robery that he will serve several years in jail. In a just system is the man then placed in jail for several years even though a robery is not commited?
Genesis 2:17
King James Version (KJV)17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The crime: eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The penalty: death to be aplied on the day the part of tree is eaten.Nevertheless they did not die that day but instead died after a number of years.
The death that they would die in a number of years was applied that day. That is becomming mortal.
Listen to Jehovah's judgement on Adam:
Genesis 3:19
King James Version (KJV)19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Death was not applied to mankind until he sinned and his body was not schedued to return to the ground until he was judged for that sin.
Quote Are you suggesting that the tree of life was there as an “antidote” to eating from the tree of knowledge? It is an antidote in that it will apply eternal life to mankind …:
Genesis 3:22
King James Version (KJV)22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
… but it does not free mankind from serving sin.
Romans 6:17
King James Version (KJV)17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
We were not ready then because we are made ready in Christ Jesus.
Quote And if that's the case, then WHY did God even put the tree of life there in the first place, knowing that it could only be useful IF they ate from the other tree first? All things have their season and eating of the trees had its season. Mankind chose to rush things with disasterous results.
Quote And why would he put it there in the first place, just to prohibit man from eating of it after he ate of the first tree? Jehovah is always proofing hearts.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 16 2012,21:43) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2012,16:03) Mike, God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death.
The angels objected to man eating of the tree of life and the fact is that man would have still been bound to sin, even if he had eaten of the tree of life in order to counter the mortality effect of the fruit that brought death.
I have no desire to be like the fallen angels.
kQuote God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death. and why did God also planted the tree of LIVE
?
T,Hope.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2012,18:48) 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Where's the part that says, “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever”?Kerwin, I see that you've got your understanding all worked out, and that you think the scriptures you quoted support that understanding.
I won't argue about it with you, even though I don't agree with your understanding, and don't see any of those scriptures you quoted as support of that understanding.
But you needn't get flippant with me by telling me you've already showed me something and that I should center myself and pay attention when the fact of the matter is that there is NO scriptural evidence that human kind would have lived eternally if they had not eaten the fruit.
Like many of your docrtrines, that is of your own imagination.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2012,06:49) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 16 2012,21:43) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2012,16:03) Mike, God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death.
The angels objected to man eating of the tree of life and the fact is that man would have still been bound to sin, even if he had eaten of the tree of life in order to counter the mortality effect of the fruit that brought death.
I have no desire to be like the fallen angels.
kQuote God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death. and why did God also planted the tree of LIVE
?
T,Hope.
kNO,hope his not the answer, because the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not a curse ,
the conclusion that we may understand is that if Adam did not eat of that tree there would not have been a reason for him to die right
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 18 2012,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2012,18:48) 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Where's the part that says, “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever”?Kerwin, I see that you've got your understanding all worked out, and that you think the scriptures you quoted support that understanding.
I won't argue about it with you, even though I don't agree with your understanding, and don't see any of those scriptures you quoted as support of that understanding.
But you needn't get flippant with me by telling me you've already showed me something and that I should center myself and pay attention when the fact of the matter is that there is NO scriptural evidence that human kind would have lived eternally if they had not eaten the fruit.
Like many of your docrtrines, that is of your own imagination.
Mike,What you say sounds silly to my ears. That is why I told you to center yourself. Even then the fact that Scripture does not have to explicitly state “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever” to mean “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever”.
Jehovah did not say whether or not you eat from the tree of the knowledge you will die on that very day. He did not mean that if they ate from the tree they would die that day and not some day in the future because they died some day in the future and not that day even after eating of the tree.
I do not see where you can reasonably come up with anything except those that eat of the tree die while those who do not eat of it do not die.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2012,07:29) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2012,06:49) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 16 2012,21:43) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2012,16:03) Mike, God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death.
The angels objected to man eating of the tree of life and the fact is that man would have still been bound to sin, even if he had eaten of the tree of life in order to counter the mortality effect of the fruit that brought death.
I have no desire to be like the fallen angels.
kQuote God did make mankind immortal in the beginning or the curse of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not have caused death. and why did God also planted the tree of LIVE
?
T,Hope.
kNO,hope his not the answer, because the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not a curse ,
the conclusion that we may understand is that if Adam did not eat of that tree there would not have been a reason for him to die right
T,In chapter 3 humanity was cursed for eating of the tree. In cursing the serpent Jehovah spoke of Jesus Christ's victory over it. That too is hope. The tree itself is not said to be a curse.
Quote the conclusion that we may understand is that if Adam did not eat of that tree there would not have been a reason for him to die right That is correct as the wages of sin are death.
To All……….Consider this a Day with God is a thousand years and a thousand year is a day , no one lived over that thousand year day in God's time period. so in that sense all who sin die in the Day they sin. A day with God is not a 24 hr period but a thousand year period. Also Kerwin you are right about if a man never sinned he would not have to die because sin is what brings Death. Jesus did not sin so he had eternal life because of that and would have never died. But he chose to offer himself up to God as a Sacrifice for “our” sins His death was for us not for him, even then his Soul did not see corruption in the grave because he did no sin and that same body continues to live to this very day.
Peace and love to you all………………………………………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 18 2012,04:47) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 16 2012,09:55) mike Uzzah,was not of the tribe of Levi and so he knew he could not touch the ark,
Pierre and Gene,The point of my three examples was not to divert the subject into explanations of those three examples.
They were just three things off the top of my head that I used to show Gene that it doesn't matter what WE see an advantage in – it only matters what the scriptures teach.
So the fact that GENE doesn't see an advantage in God sending a pre-existing spirit son to atone for our sins doesn't matter in the least – because God doesn't base the things He does on whether or not GENE is able to see an advantage in them.
Mike……..What you have said here is true , but there is nothing that God does without Purpose and a Preexistent Jesus would not serve a Purpose in the sense of Man Becoming Holy and Perfect the Same way Jesus did now would it. Your teaching of the SEPARATION of Jesus from Mankind works to distort the whole Purpose of Jesus being a Pure Human being and therefore acts to Separate Him from the rest of us. But many scriptures show Jesus identified himself as being exactly as we are in every sense of the word.You say you believe Scriptures so lets see about that.
Heb 5:1-9……> For every high priest taken from among Men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: (2) Who can have compassion on the ignorant and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself is compassed with infirmity (3) And by reason hereof he ought as for the people so also for himself, to offer for sins. (4) And no man takes this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as Aaron.
Now pay attention Mike…> verse 5…> So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; But he that said unto him, Thou art my Son “TODAY” Have I BEGOTTEN YOU
Now Mike when was that DAY HE WAS BEGOTTEN Was it before he was ever Born on this earth , was it after he was born on this earth or was it when He was Baptized and received the HOLY SPIRIT into Him, was that not the day he was begotten as a Son of GOD?
Now tell us Mike does this sound like a Man who Previously existed.
(verse 7) …> Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him who was able to save him from death and was heard in that he feared (8) Though he were a Son yet learned he obedience by the things which he sufferedNow Pay attition Mike (9) And being made perfect he became (came to be) the author of eternal salvation unto all them the obey him.
Mike did you notice the word became or (CAME to BE) and was MADE PERFECT by what HE suffered. Now My question to you is HOW COULD HE BE MADE THAT WAY IF HE WERE “ALREADY” THAT WAY BEFORE HE WAS EVER BORN ON THE EARTH AND WHY WOULD GOD SAY TO HIM “this day” He was begotten So IF HE ALREADY WAS A BEGOTTEN SON FROM TIME PAST or as you falsely say the first one ever created by God , and how could a “god ” as you call him be made perfect if he already was perfect?
I could go on for days showing you Jesus was a HUMAN BEING and Never preexisted his Berth on the earth but I, and many many have already. But the web of false teaching has caught you like it has nearly all of Christendom. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2012,01:40) Mike, What you say sounds silly to my ears. That is why I told you to center yourself. Even then the fact that Scripture does not have to explicitly state “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever” to mean “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever”.
Jehovah did not say whether or not you eat from the tree of the knowledge you will die on that very day. He did not mean that if they ate from the tree they would die that day and not some day in the future because they died some day in the future and not that day even after eating of the tree.
I do not see where you can reasonably come up with anything except those that eat of the tree die while those who do not eat of it do not die.
Kerwin,I don't agree with your conclusion. I don't agree that the scriptures you use as support of that conclusion are really undeniable support.
That being said, you could be right about it. Scripture doesn't SPECIFICALLY state what you claim, and if scriptures are silent about it, we should also be silent about it.
IF God had made Adam and Eve immortal from the beginning, what then was the purpose for the tree of life in the first place?
See? THIS is what I can't come to grips with. If Adam and Eve were already immortal, there would be no purpose for a tree of life in the Garden of Eden.
So like I said, you may be right, but scripture doesn't explicitely support your understanding.
(I really like Gene's point about a day to God being 1000 years to us. He pointed that out to me a couple of years ago, and it really made sense out of a scriptural “problem” I was having trouble reconciling, ie: Adam and Even DIDN'T die in the very day they ate from the tree. Good stuff, Gene.
)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 18 2012,07:31) Now Mike when was that DAY HE WAS BEGOTTEN
I believe he was begotten before the ages. I believe Jude points to this fact in the last verse of his letter. I also believe Psalm 2:7 is the recounting of a PAST event, and not a future prophecy.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 18 2012,07:31) Now tell us Mike does this sound like a Man who Previously existed.
(verse 7) …> Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him who was able to save him from death
To me, it sounds EXACTLY like a man who previously existed – otherwise, what do the words “days of his flesh” mean? “Days of his flesh” as OPPOSED to “days of his what? Non-flesh? Like perhaps his non-flesh existence in the form of God before the world was created through him, and before he was made in the likeness of a human being?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 18 2012,07:31) (8) Though he were a Son yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered
Though he had ALREADY BEEN the Son of God for eons, he came in the flesh to suffer as mankind suffers. In this way, he could make a better High Priest for us, because he now knows the pain, suffering, and temptations that we of the flesh go through on a daily basis. In other words, he can now be a more understanding and more forgiving Priest, since he now knows what we go through. (Heb 2:17)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 18 2012,07:31) Now Pay attition Mike (9) And being made perfect he became (came to be) the author of eternal salvation unto all them the obey him.
He couldn't become our savior (author of our eternal salvation) until he was made flesh so that he could die for us. Sin entered the world through one perfectly made man, and it could only be atoned for by a CORRESPONDING sacrifice, ie: a different, perfectly made man.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 18 2012,07:31) HOW COULD HE BE MADE THAT WAY IF HE WERE “ALREADY” THAT WAY BEFORE HE WAS EVER BORN ON THE EARTH
In his spiritual pre-existence, he had no need to be “refined with fire like silver”. But as a man, he had to go through that refining process, like all of God's people.But Gene, I could ask the same question of you: If Jesus didn't pre-exist, but was created perfect right from the womb of Mary, how is it that he had to BE MADE PERFECT through suffering?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 18 2012,07:31) AND WHY WOULD GOD SAY TO HIM “this day” He was begotten So IF HE ALREADY WAS A BEGOTTEN SON FROM TIME PAST
Those words were recorded (in the PAST TENSE) in Psalm 2:7 – MANY hundreds of years before Jesus was ever made in the likeness of a human being. YOU consider Ps 2:7 to be a FUTURE prophecy. I consider it to be a teaching about the first words God ever said to His firstborn – words that were said eons BEFORE there ever existed a universe or angels.Gene, I have done my best to address all of your points. But this has taken me a long time to do. I will continue to address all of your valid points (that I haven't already addressed hundreds of times before) in the future. But please post these points ONE AT A TIME. These long posts take too much out of me.
So if you take issue with any of my rebuttals, please pick ONE point, and we can continue talking about ONLY THAT POINT until we either reach an agreement, or agree to disagree. THEN, we can move on to the next rebuttal. (If your next post tries to discuss everything I've posted today, I will “cherry pick” the ONE thing I want to refute, and respond ONLY to that ONE thing. So if you don't want me “cherry picking”, then post ONLY the most important point you think you have first. AFTER we're done with that point, THEN we can move on to others.)
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 18 2012,22:13) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2012,01:40) Mike, What you say sounds silly to my ears. That is why I told you to center yourself. Even then the fact that Scripture does not have to explicitly state “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever” to mean “But if you don't ever eat from that tree, you will live forever”.
Jehovah did not say whether or not you eat from the tree of the knowledge you will die on that very day. He did not mean that if they ate from the tree they would die that day and not some day in the future because they died some day in the future and not that day even after eating of the tree.
I do not see where you can reasonably come up with anything except those that eat of the tree die while those who do not eat of it do not die.
Kerwin,I don't agree with your conclusion. I don't agree that the scriptures you use as support of that conclusion are really undeniable support.
That being said, you could be right about it. Scripture doesn't SPECIFICALLY state what you claim, and if scriptures are silent about it, we should also be silent about it.
IF God had made Adam and Eve immortal from the beginning, what then was the purpose for the tree of life in the first place?
See? THIS is what I can't come to grips with. If Adam and Eve were already immortal, there would be no purpose for a tree of life in the Garden of Eden.
So like I said, you may be right, but scripture doesn't explicitly support your understanding.
(I really like Gene's point about a day to God being 1000 years to us. He pointed that out to me a couple of years ago, and it really made sense out of a scriptural “problem” I was having trouble reconciling, ie: Adam and Even DIDN'T die in the very day they ate from the tree. Good stuff, Gene.
)
Mike,I can see Gene's point about a day being like a thousand years to Jehovah.
Jehovah proposes mysteries for us to resolve.
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