The Angel of the LORD

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  • #319181
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,01:54)
    Why do you think this interpretation is right in inferring that he disagrees with those Scriptures which declared him to be under 5o years old at that time?


    Kerwin, listen:

    The Jews said:  YOU ARE NOT YET 50 YEARS OLD.

    Jesus replied:  Before Abraham came into being, I am (or I have been – just like in John 14:9).

    Get it?  

    The Jews:  You are NOT even 50.
    Jesus:  You are mistaken, because I'm even older than your father Abraham.

    THIS is what transpired in John 8:56-58, whether you believe it or not.

    As for the scriptures that tell us Jesus was 30 when he started his ministry, they are correct.  He was 30 years old ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,01:54)
    I on the other hand believe Jesus is he by whom Abraham was to become; just as Scripture teaches.


    He by whom Abraham was to become?  ???   What the flip are you even saying?

    Kerwin, can't you see how your personal wishes force you to spout nonsensical things?  :)

    I'm with t8 on this one.  WE believe the scriptures that speak of Jesus existing in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being………………… AND the scriptures that say Jesus was 30 when he started his ministry.

    YOU, on the other hand, only believe the part of the scriptures that suit your personal wishes.

    You choose not to believe that Jesus had glory alongside his God before the world began.  But we DO believe that.

    You choose not to believe that all things in heaven and on earth came FROM God THROUGH Jesus.  But we DO believe that.

    You choose not to believe that Jesus came DOWN from heaven to do the will of He who sent him.  But we DO believe that.

    I could go on and on and on, Kerwin – but the end result is the same.  WE believe ALL the scriptures, while YOU believe ONLY the ones that suit you.

    #319215
     kerwin 
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    Mike,

    Quote
    He by whom Abraham was to become?  ???   What the flip are you even saying?

    The statement is clear to the Jews, those who think like them, and those who know how they think because the Jews know Jehovah stated Abraham would become the father of many nations through his Seed. For those who doubt, Paul later uses this knowledge in his teachings.  I do not see a reason to quote his doing so again as you either believe his claim or you do not.

    Quote
    I'm with t8 on this one.  WE believe the scriptures that speak of Jesus existing in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being………………… AND the scriptures that say Jesus was 30 when he started his ministry.

    You believe that Scripture testifies Jesus was about 30 years old of the flesh which is not what it claims explicitly.  I assume that you are going by the idea that Jesus is the Seed of David as of the flesh and that he was such for about thirty years at that time.  That of course means that his flesh is descended from David and not transformed from the body of a super angel, as you also seem to claim in contradiction.

    The Jews were speaking of the flesh when they stated Jesus was not yet 50 years old; therefore they were not wrong, even by your teaching. Your teaching also agrees with them that Jesus was claiming to have seen Abraham even though Jesus does not say that he had seen Abraham, who being a prophet, looked forward to Jesus' day.

    I have no doubt that Jesus exists in the form of the Spirit and so does not see equality with God as something to be grasped but instead empties himself, taking on the form of a servant.  It is a timeless fact while him being made in the image of mankind is not. Assuming Paul is using an ordered list it seems that the timeless comes before that which has a time.  

    I can say that Jesus exists in the form of God in the same way he  took on the form of a servant but not like the way he was made in the likeness of humanity.  I can say this because “form” is used with both “of God” and “of a servant” and I know a servant bears many likenesses, of which humanity is but one.  

    You on the other hand are seeming to claim he had the form of one type of servant; emptied himself of it, as if likenesses are not worn; and put on the form of another type of servant.  Philippians 2:5-7 does not support this interpretation.

    #319228
     t8 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,21:03)
    You believe the Jew's conclusion while I do not find them creditable except where they agree with other Scriptures which state Jesus was under 50 years old.


    Here's the thing kerwin.

    I believe that Jesus said he existed before Abraham and the Jews did not, (Before Abraham, ego eimi/I exist).

    So it is you who believes the Jews conclusion is it not?

    #319294
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,00:30)
    That of course means that his flesh is descended from David and not transformed from the body of a super angel, as you also seem to claim in contradiction.


    I never said Jesus' flesh was “transformed from the body of a super angel”, Kerwin.

    Mary is the offspring of David. Jesus existed as a spirit being in the beginning. Then God impregnated Mary with the “essence” of that spirit being, Jesus.

    The resulting product was both the Son of God AND a son of man. His flesh lineage can surely be traced to David, as is shown by both Matthew and Luke. And according to his flesh lineage, he was 30 years old when he started his ministry on earth.

    So, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, Jesus was truly less than 50 years old, like the Jews claimed. But, as Jesus tried to explain to both you and those Jews, there was much more to him than “according to the flesh”.

    They didn't get it, and neither do you.

    #319305
     terraricca 
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    mike

    love your above respond :)

    #319361
     kerwin 
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    Mike,

    What evidence to you have to reveal the Jews meant something different when they stated Jesus was under 50 than a certain passage means when it stated he was about 30?

    Pierre is the one that has advanced the idea that Jesus was a transformed spirit being that was adopted by David's line and not the literal seed of it. I had though you agreed with him.

    #319365
     kerwin 
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    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2012,15:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,21:03)
    You believe the Jew's conclusion while I do not find them creditable except where they agree with other Scriptures which state Jesus was under 50 years old.


    Here's the thing kerwin.

    I believe that Jesus said he existed before Abraham and the Jews did not, (Before Abraham, ego eimi/I exist).

    So it is you who believes the Jews conclusion is it not?


    T8,

    ego eimi = I am he

    John 18:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

    #319390
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Kerwin……….You have it right brother, Jesus was simply responding to the question they ask when they ask who was Jesus he simply responded “I AM” and it had no other signifence to it other then he identifying himself.

    Some think where it say the soldiers fellback that meant it had some “spritual” signifence to it , but the soldier thought his deciples were going to defend Jesus so they fellback into a defense mode for an attack, it had nothing to do with a spritual significance of the Words “I AM” at all.

    This thing about the words “I AM” is just another proof of how “MYSTERY RELIGION” has infected they minds of People.  They try to make everything seem “RELIGIOUS” when in fact it is not religious at all. IMO

    peace and lvoe to you and yours………………………………………….gene

    #319423
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 08 2012,20:35)
    mike

    love your above respond :)


    :)

    #319425
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2012,00:19)
    Mike,

    What evidence do you have to reveal the Jews meant something different when they stated Jesus was under 50 than a certain passage means when it stated he was about 30?


    Kerwin,

    The Jews DIDN'T mean anything different.  They truly thought Jesus was just a normal human being who was less than 50 years old.  They didn't know that he did not have a human father, or that his mother conceived him without ever having sex.  They didn't know the WHOLE story, Kerwin.

    So to them, they were simply saying that a regular old human being who was less than 50 years old would have no idea about any gladness Abraham might have had, because there is no way this less than 50 year old man could have ever seen Abraham.

    And Jesus either agreed with them that he HADN'T ever seen Abraham, or he disagreed with them.  I believe we both agree on the answer to that one.

    So, if Jesus was in fact DISAGREEING with those you call “non-credible Jews”, then he was disagreeing with their claim about him never having seen Abraham.

    #319427
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2012,00:29)
    T8,

    ego eimi = I am he

    John 18:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:


    Kerwin,

    Do you realize that you just pointed out yet another of the “idiomatic problems” associated with translating ego eimi into English?

    (Remember Jason BeDunh talking about these “idiomatic problems”, and how the majority of translators adjust the sentence so that it makes sense in English?  Remember him saying that when it comes to John 8:58, they all of a sudden forget how to translate?  You have just proved his point with another scripture.)

    Of course we know that “ego eimi” in 18:8 meant “I am HE”, and not just “I am”.  If we left it in English as “I AM”, the statement would make no sense to us.

    Other examples are Mark 13:6 and John 8:24.  In John 8:24, the NIV doesn't even settle with adding the word “he”.  They render it as, “……if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be , you will indeed die in your sins.”

    So what you've proved is that many times, English translators have to adjust the Greek words, so that they make sense to us in English.  And the statement, “Before Abraham became, I AM” doesn't make sense in English.  On the other hand, the statement, “Before Abraham became, I HAVE BEEN” does make sense in English.

    #319593
     kerwin 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,07:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2012,00:29)
    T8,

    ego eimi = I am he

    John 18:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:


    Kerwin,

    Do you realize that you just pointed out yet another of the “idiomatic problems” associated with translating ego eimi into English?

    (Remember Jason BeDunh talking about these “idiomatic problems”, and how the majority of translators adjust the sentence so that it makes sense in English?  Remember him saying that when it comes to John 8:58, they all of a sudden forget how to translate?  You have just proved his point with another scripture.)

    Of course we know that “ego eimi” in 18:8 meant “I am HE”, and not just “I am”.  If we left it in English as “I AM”, the statement would make no sense to us.

    Other examples are Mark 13:6 and John 8:24.  In John 8:24, the NIV doesn't even settle with adding the word “he”.  They render it as, “……if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be , you will indeed die in your sins.”

    So what you've proved is that many times, English translators have to adjust the Greek words, so that they make sense to us in English.  And the statement, “Before Abraham became, I AM” doesn't make sense in English.  On the other hand, the statement, “Before Abraham became, I HAVE BEEN” does make sense in English.


    Mike,

    I have been a father before Abraham became a father is not how it would be stated in common English.  

    It is either:

    I was a father before Abraham became a father.

    or

    I have been a father longer than Abraham has been a father.

    Proper English is a different dialect that I am unfamiliar with and so I am not sure what would work in it unless I do some research.

    The Ancients Greeks seemed to answer the question who with I am when it spoke of them.  We also do it to some extent but not to the degree it appears they did it.

    #319652
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Mike………Tell us how, seeing Jesus as a pure human being who God brought forth at the proper time by his berth on the earth, would change you belief in him. Would it not make more sense for God to do it that way , take a Man from Human Stock and Perfect him and raise him to what God had in mind for all mankind, and set him as a example and goal for us all to atain to.

    Woud that not give you a more sound sense of connection with Him as a brother and fellow human being?

    Would that not encourage you to believe you can come to the full stature of Christ Jesus as your Goal in life to have the exact same relationship with the Father as he has?

    Why can't you see your view as Jesus being seperate and different from us destort your view of idenitfying with him, in a human sense ?

    Why can't you see God is not concerned about Angels or creatures as he is with bringing many of us Human Sons to Glory and Honor as he didi for Jesus.?

    Why try to disqualify Jesus' work in GOD, as a human being , by saying he was not just a human being, but a “PREEXISTENT” being of some kind, giving him all kind of past advantages the rest of us do not have.?

    Mike you have not produced one scripture showing Jesus ever talked about any past existence , nor his diciples either, there is not one showing any activity of him before his berth on this earth of any kind. You would think that, that alone would cause you people to question your preexistence doctrinesthat you and the Trinitarians Preach.

    Rather you understand it or not Mike but you are in the same boat as your Trinitarian brother are. IMO

    peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………………………………………..gene

    #319675
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2012,06:01)
    It is either:

    I was a father before Abraham became a father.

    or

    I have been a father longer than Abraham has been a father.


    It has nothing to do with Jesus or Abraham being fathers, Kerwin.

    It has to do with “Before Abraham became (CAME INTO BEING), I have been (I HAVE EXISTED)”.

    I hesitate to even ask where you came up with “father”, because I know it will only lead down yet another rabbit hole of nonsensical confusion.

    #319676
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2012,12:39)
    .


    It wouldn't change my belief in him one little bit, Gene. I've told you all along that I don't have a pre-conceived notion to attend to. The only thing leading me is what the scriptures actually teach.

    If they taught that God was a triune being, then I'd have no problem believing it. But we know the scriptures DON'T teach that, do they?

    Likewise, if scriptures taught that Jesus was never anything other than a man just like the rest of us, I'd have no problem believing it.

    But scriptures, many times and in many places, speak about the pre-existence of Jesus. Paul said he was existing in the form of God before being made in human likeness. What am I supposed to do, Gene? Just ignore that scripture and the 50 other ones that teach the same thing? I can't do that.

    Why don't you turn your question around on yourself:

    Gene………Tell us how seeing Jesus as a pure human being who existed before he emptied himself and was made into a human being would change YOUR belief in him.

    #319693
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Mike………..First of all you do not see Jesus as a pure “human” Being Now do you? You see him as a preexisting, god, demigod, angel, or whatever you have never told us exactly what he was right? And yes a Preexisting Jesus would make a lot of difference because he simply would not be identifying with us in the same way.

    Why can't you see that Mike? youare giving him a edge over us humans he never had, you are shifting God work in humanity by a pure human being to a work by some Preexisting Being. It make a “BIG” difference Mike. Don't you even think that if that were the case Jesus and all the disciples would have spoken about it over and over and given us specifices about his past existences and he would have enlightened us all about it. He said he delievered EVERYTHING he recieved from the Father to us so why not some of those past experiences?

    Mike do me a favor OK, go and read 2 Ths 2, very carefully and due a study on it and see what i mean by the “IMAGE” of Jesus being the Great “LIE” being spoken of there. Just try to put Jesus in the equation there and see how it all fits. Please just try it OK?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………gene

    #319694
     mikeboll64 
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    Gene,

    It is not my concern whether or not Jesus was exactly like the rest of us.  My concern lies only in reading the scriptures and believing it like they tell it.

    Your last post once again demonstrates your BIAS in the matter, because you make it clear that you WANT to be able to “identify” with Jesus.  It is that personal and selfish WANT that causes you to force Jesus into whatever you WANT him to be – despite the fact that the scriptures teach a very different Jesus than you teach.

    #319810
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Mike…….How can i call him my BROTHER if he is “Different” than I am. What is wrong with me wanting to “Identify “with Jesus as my Brother.  Mike i do not force Jesus to be what i want him to be, i simply believe what he said he was, “a son of Man” exactly like i am. Mike it is exactly your Biases causing you to move Jesus away form you having any identification with Him. You Can't seem to understand Jesus had to be”EXACTLY” as we are to achieve for humanity what he achieved. He could not have been any different to show God's perfecting work in humanity , why can't you see that brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………………….gen
    e

    #320015
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 11 2012,09:13)
    Mike…….How can i call him my BROTHER if he is “Different” than I am.


    He IS different than you are, Gene.

    1 John 3:2
    Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    Do you notice all the future tense phrases, Gene?  Some of us will be changed into glorious spiritual beings like the one he is now.  (Phil 3:21)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 11 2012,09:13)
    i simply believe what he said he was, “a son of Man” exactly like i am


    He was also the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of GOD, Gene.  And that is something you'll NEVER be.  So once again, the fact that you WANT Jesus to have been “exactly like you” doesn't matter.  What matters is that the scriptures teach Jesus was NEVER “exactly like us”.  He was always different.

    #320103
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Mike………Rather Jesus is the first from mankind and i am the last, makes no difference , he still has his roots from mankind the same as I. The word only is wrong, unless you apply it to the fact he is (present tense) the only begotten “into” the kingdom of God from mankind. Scripture shows there are many who have been begotten of God in fact all mankind is begotten (brought forth) of God,  Adam is himself called the “son of God”. So was he not a begotten of God also? Jesus tells us our father in heaven how is it God is our Father?, if we are not begotten of  him also.  The scripture that say we shall see him as He is, also identifies us exactly the same as he is (no difference), is being communicated there between him and us.

    ! John 3:1 ……> Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us that we should be called the sons of God (present tense) therefore the world knows us not, because it knew Him not.

    Mike do you see any difference between Jesus and us there?

    1 John 3:9……Whosoever is born of God doth not commit ((continue in) sin, for his seed remains in him and he cannot (continue in) sin because he is born of God. verse 10…> In this the “children” of God are manifest and the Children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness  is not of God, neither he that Love not his brother

    peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………………………….gene

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