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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,05:35) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2012,11:50) the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus
Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre. Would God destroy Himself?In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he? No. He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL.
Mike……….Yes becasue Body and Soul are ONE and the same thing. When one dies so dies the other. Notice also Jesus said God can destory Both where? “IN Hell (the grave) same thing. The word hellos come form English to put in the Ground.Point is God can destory both, becasue one can not live without the other, A soul is a Body and a “Living Soul”, is a Body with the Spirit of Life in it> The word LIVING Soul is meaning the Complete Being , not just a part of it.
God can Simply destory us by leaving us in the Grave and resurrecting us. No one is still alive when they die, Jesus was not alive when he was dead either or he really would not have been dead would he. Jesus said He was dead and “NOW” was alive for ever and ever. He wasn't alive when he was dead, he was DEAD> IMO and Jesus' opinion also.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
NO, body and soul is not the same thing ,this is clear in scriptures, no doubts about it .
when dead,the soul being aware of anything,??? on earth definitely not .
being aware of what in the spirit
only the 144k can I understand because their soul will never be in the flesh again ,accordingly to scriptures,all others ,scriptures does not say were they are waiting ,could it be in the dark of heaven and so be aware of nothing .???….
would this not depend on God himself
I think soQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2012,22:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,00:31) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2012,21:39) Mike, I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.
A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.
They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades.
Kerwin,I can't argue definitively against your point, because scripture seems to teach two different things.
We have Jesus seeming to imply that the souls of the dead ARE conscious, while Solomon tells us point blank that they are not.
There has to be some middle ground somewhere – information that we aren't privy to, I suppose.
Mike,It is my thought that Solomon was speaking of the corpse since the word he used translated to dead dead is sometimes translated corpse elsewhere. Jesus on the other hand was speaking of the soul.
kJesus is speaking of the the words of live that can make our soul live and so be saved from destruction ,but this was also in the law ,but not understood ,
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2012,22:49) Mike, It is my thought that Solomon was speaking of the corpse since the word he used translated to dead dead is sometimes translated corpse elsewhere. Jesus on the other hand was speaking of the soul.
Possibly, Kerwin. I can't argue against that conclusion.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2012,09:04) Mike……….Yes becasue Body and Soul are ONE and the same thing. When one dies so dies the other. Point is God can destory both…………
Gene,How can you say in one sentence that they are the same thing, and then continue on to explain to us how God can destroy BOTH of them?
Some of your words contradict your other words.
My brother Pierre,
I have read your posts, and I simply disagree with your conclusion. There is no need to discuss it any further, as we are both aware of what the other believes, and those beliefs are simply different from each other.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2012,14:41) My brother Pierre, I have read your posts, and I simply disagree with your conclusion. There is no need to discuss it any further, as we are both aware of what the other believes, and those beliefs are simply different from each other.
peace and love,
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2012,07:38) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2012,09:04) Mike……….Yes becasue Body and Soul are ONE and the same thing. When one dies so dies the other. Point is God can destory both…………
Gene,How can you say in one sentence that they are the same thing, and then continue on to explain to us how God can destroy BOTH of them?
Some of your words contradict your other words.
Mike……….Simple ……If God destroys the Body in the grave he also is destroying the Soul , Why , becasue a “Living Soul” is a body with spirit of life in it , take either part away and the “whole” “Living Soul”, is Not living anymore it is “dead”The whole concept of a person continuing to live after he dies is also a Mystery religious concept derived from pagan teachings.
There is no life after death at all, and unless the Lord raise up another Body and put the spirit of life back into it we will never exist again after we die> Just that simple . When Jesus said he was dead he did not mean he still was “alive” after he died, and he would have remained that way for eternity if God had not raised his body and added spirit back into it again , so he could become a “LIVING SOUL” again. Just that simple nothing complicated about it , No body no Soul Period!> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 22 2012,15:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,00:31) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2012,21:39) Mike, I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.
A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.
They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades.
Kerwin,I can't argue definitively against your point, because scripture seems to teach two differnent things.
We have Jesus seeming to imply that the souls of the dead ARE conscious, while Solomon tells us point blank that they are not.
There has to be some middle ground somewhere – information that we aren't privy to, I suppose.
Mike,It is my thought that Solomon was speaking of the corpse since the word he used translated to dead dead is sometimes translated corpse elsewhere. Jesus on the other hand was speaking of the soul.
Mike,Solomon said that in the days of his apostasy from God. Ecclesiastes reflected Solomon's thought while he was influenced by the wisdom that is “under the sun” (the world's wisdom).
But in Proverbs 1:12 Solomon said that sheol swallows men ALIVE. Sheol was where the souls of the dead went to await the resurrection. Jesus' soul was resurrected from sheol.
Proverbs reflects Solomon's thinking which was according to the wisdom of God.
Solomon also said in Ecclesiastes that there was no judgment and he changed his mind about that too.
Hebrews 11:16 says that the patriarchs “NOW DESIRE a heavenly country.” How do the unconscious “desire” Mike? The rsurrection had not happened yet.
Good points, Jack. Thanks for the info.
I am a little uncomfortable picking and choosing which of Solomon's teachings to believe, and which ones to dismiss as “apostate”.
Is there scriptural information concerning when Solomon wrote his proverbs? Do we know for sure that Eccl. was written after he fell away from Jehovah and added the gods of his wives to his belief system?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2012,08:57) Mike……….Simple ……If God destroys the Body in the grave he also is destroying the Soul. Why , becasue a “Living Soul” is a body with spirit of life in it.
You're doing it again, Gene. Your word “also” implies that the body and the soul are TWO different things.1. BODY
2. SOULIf Jesus says men can only destroy ONE of those TWO things listed above, then it means they are indeed TWO different things, Gene.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2012,08:10) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2012,08:57) Mike……….Simple ……If God destroys the Body in the grave he also is destroying the Soul. Why , becasue a “Living Soul” is a body with spirit of life in it.
You're doing it again, Gene. Your word “also” implies that the body and the soul are TWO different things.1. BODY
2. SOULIf Jesus says men can only destroy ONE of those TWO things listed above, then it means they are indeed TWO different things, Gene.
Mike……..The word there is Spirit not Soul as you assume it is. Look it up in the GREEK. When the Body and spirit is separated there is no more a Living SOUL, and the Body is corrupted in the Grave and the Spirit goes back to him who gave it in the first place.There is no more consciousness or activity when a person dies. He is dead for ever unless God restores a Body and add spirit back into it again. A Soul “IS” a Body with life giving Spirit in it> Nothing more and nothing less.
The living SOUL, which is both a Body and Spirit can be destoryed by separation when a Person dies. So Jesus could say he who can destory both Body and Spirit in the “Grave” is right > God simply just has to leave it there in the grave and you will be gone for ever. Just that simple for him.
Mike you have bought into GREEK Mythology of a after life in the neither world is apparent, By your not understanding when a person dies he is really dead . When Jesus said he was dead he did not mean he was still alive Mike> Again you simply do not believe Jesus it seem. IMO
peace and love………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2012,09:26) Mike……..The word there is Spirit not Soul as you assume it is. Look it up in the GREEK.
Gene,It is the Greek word “psuche”, which means “soul”, in most cases. The Greek word for “spirit” is “pneuma”, not “psuche”.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2012,09:26) There is no more consciousness or activity when a person dies. Mike you have bought into GREEK Mythology of a after life in the neither world is apparent, By your not understanding when a person dies he is really dead .
Gene,Why are telling this to ME? Shouldn't you be telling it to KERWIN, since HE is the one who thinks the dead are conscious in Sheol?
Btw, here is the scripture I was talking about before:
Matthew 10:28 NIV
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.The teaching is crystal clear, Gene. MEN can kill the body, but NOT the soul. God can destroy BOTH of these TWO things.
mike
Quote The teaching is crystal clear, Gene. MEN can kill the body, but NOT the soul. God can destroy BOTH of these TWO things. this is absolutely true, this is why one dies and decades but not the other only one his destroyed not the other ,for now any way , but judgement will ,
sins scriptures says that the soul needs the flesh to make us going into action,then wen one part is remove ,all actions are stopped ,and may be what Christ called it would be better “SLEEP,” so you are there and you are not there so to speak,just waiting in sleep
To,
Where, what, and who is Abaddon?
Job 26:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)6 “Naked is [a] Sheol before Him,
And Abaddon has no covering.Footnotes:
a Job 26:6 I.e. the nether world
b Job 26:6 I.e. place of destructionJob 28:22
New American Standard Bible (NASB)22 “[a] Abaddon and Death say,
‘With our ears we have heard a report of it.’Footnotes:
a Job 28:22 I.e. Destruction
Job 31:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)12 “For it would be fire that consumes to [a] Abaddon,
And would uproot all my increase.Footnotes:
a Job 31:12 I.e. place of destruction
b Job 31:12 Or yieldPsalm 88:11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)11 Will Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave,
Your faithfulness in [a]Abaddon?Footnotes:
a Psalm 88:11 I.e. place of destruction
Proverbs 15:11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 [a] Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord,
How much more the hearts of [c]men!
Footnotes:a Proverbs 15:11 I.e. the nether world
b Proverbs 15:11 I.e. place of destruction
c Proverbs 15:11 Lit sons of AdamProverbs 27:20
New American Standard Bible (NASB)20 [a] Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied,
Nor are the eyes of man ever satisfied.Footnotes:
a Proverbs 27:20 I.e. The nether world
b Proverbs 27:20 I.e. the place of destructionRevelation 9:11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is [a] Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.
Footnotes:a Revelation 9:11 I.e. destruction
b Revelation 9:11 I.e. destroyerPierre,
I agree.
Kerwin, should we discuss your scriptures one by one and see if they are really saying that souls remain conscious in Sheol?
Let's do the Psalm first:
Psalm 88
10 Do you show your wonders to the dead?
Do those who are dead rise up and praise you?
Selah11 Is your love declared in the grave,
your faithfulness in Abaddon?
12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness,
or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?I believe these are rhetorical questions, to which the obvious answer, from the point of view of the writer, is “NO”.
I believe the idea is: Help me now, LORD, because I won't be able to declare your love, see your wonders, or rise up and praise you when I'm dead and my soul has gone to Sheol.
What do you think, Kerwin?
Mike,
We both believe that the dead will rise up and praise God at the Resurrection.
I seek to interpret Scripture in accordance to Jesus, teachings. The Jews of that time held to teachings similar to what Jesus taught.
I asked about Abaddon as it is a place, possibly the abyss that the angel Abaddon, comes out of; while leading locus demons. Demons that may elsewhere be called scorpions.
Sheol has a lowest part and the lower part Jesus teaches is a place of torment. The locusts demons are also said torment humanity when they are freed. We are taught that certain angels were bound the darkness of Tartarus.
Psalm 88:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)6 You have put me in the lowest pit,
In dark places, in the depths.In keeping with what Jesus teaches this Psalmist is declaring he or/and the one he prophesies of is tormented in the likeness of the rich man.
It is my hypothesis that the Abyss, Abaddon, Tartarus, and the lowest pit are all the same place and that the angel that rules them is called Abaddon as well.
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