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Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,21:13) ok Mike lets put a scripture to your 3 point ok so let see your scriptures ??
1. The SPIRIT goes back to God who gave it.
2. The SOUL goes to Sheol to sleep with our fathers.
3. The BODY counts for nothing and decays.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.The “dust” refers to the flesh body, which was made from dust, and to dust it returns.
The spirit, on the other hand, returns to God who gave it.
Genesis 15
15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age.If the dust returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God, then what is left to “go to our fathers”? It must be the soul.
Think it out, Pierre. When the medium raised Samuel from his rest, what do you think was raised? Could it be his flesh, which had long since decayed? NO. Could it be his spirit, which went back to God who gave it the minute he died? NO. So what was left to be wakened?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,05:07) It is my thought the breath = the soul but it is the breath that returns to God while the soul departs to descend to Sheol/Hades.
Read your own words, Kerwin. You say the breath IS the soul, but the breath (soul) returns to God while the soul (soul) descends to Sheol.How can the soul return to God AND descend to Sheol?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,05:07) Here is another passage that teaches us that departed souls tremble. Job 26:5-6
Yes, God is so mighty that even those who have died still tremble before Him. Job is speaking emphatically and poetically about the awesome powers of God, and how no one, even those in Sheol, are protected or hidden from Him.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,05:07) Here is another one: Isaiah 14:9-10
Isaiah 14 is also metaphorical and poetic. You'll notice in verse 8 that the evergreens and cedars of Lebanon also rejoice and sing over the demise of the king of Babylon.Listen guys, a long time ago, I gave my thoughts about the soul in the thread which discussed it. I said my piece and then left that thread because I thought it senseless to argue back and forth about it any longer.
I have my understanding, which completely aligns with the scriptures. If you don't share my understanding, then so be it. This is not the “soul” thread, and I'm tired of discussing it.
Mike,
* Jesus does a parable of Sheol/Hades..
* Two departed soul speaks
* One is suffering misery
* One as well as a third are experiencing comfort.
* There are two section of Hades that separated by an impassable abyss.
* A departed soul can be sent by Abraham to witness to the living.Isaiah does use cedars metaphorically but his words in 14:10 about departed spirits speaking does agree with what Jesus demonstrates by having a conversation between two dead souls.
Psalms 146:4 teaches us the thoughts of the body perish and Ecclesiastes 9:5 uses a word that is elsewhere is translated “the corpse” in other versions than the KJV, Numbers 19:11 & 13 of the NAS and INT.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,11:48) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,21:13) ok Mike lets put a scripture to your 3 point ok so let see your scriptures ??
1. The SPIRIT goes back to God who gave it.
2. The SOUL goes to Sheol to sleep with our fathers.
3. The BODY counts for nothing and decays.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.The “dust” refers to the flesh body, which was made from dust, and to dust it returns.
The spirit, on the other hand, returns to God who gave it.
Genesis 15
15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age.If the dust returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God, then what is left to “go to our fathers”? It must be the soul.
Think it out, Pierre. When the medium raised Samuel from his rest, what do you think was raised? Could it be his flesh, which had long since decayed? NO. Could it be his spirit, which went back to God who gave it the minute he died? NO. So what was left to be wakened?
MikeTheir is no tree things only two
The flesh that lays down and so goes to the place of the fathers,and decay
The spirit his our soul it return with what we have done ,and at the resurrection it can be judge accordingly ,
For Samuel what was razed was what no one can answer my questions ,I do not know what it was all assuming that it was Samuel,
The one that could recognized him was with his face on the ground,the who saw him did not know him ,and you try to thing that I should believe both ?? This is a test case ,so I will certainly. Give no credit to it ,to me this story has no live in it ,God bless
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.Pierre, I count THREE things here.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.Apparently, the soul can be DIVIDED FROM the spirit, meaning they are TWO different things, IMO.
You have your understanding, and I have mine. Mine aligns with all the scriptures, so I'm happy with it.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,23:27) Mike, * Jesus does a parable of Sheol/Hades..
* Two departed soul speaks
* One is suffering misery
* One as well as a third are experiencing comfort.
* There are two section of Hades that separated by an impassable abyss.
* A departed soul can be sent by Abraham to witness to the living.
So you believe that when we die, we are still alive and conscious and waiting for judgment in Sheol?mIKE
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.very good scripture my question would be what his the spirit Paul is talking about here
is it the spirit that goes back to God or is it the spirit of our being the same one witch we use to imprint our soul with,??I BELIEVE IT IS THIS ONE THAT PAUL TALKS ABOUT ,BECAUSE IT CAN KEEP US BLAMELESS,RIGHT YES,Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.THIS ALSO IS A VERY GOOD SCRIPTURE;
but what is it that it talks about
first it say that the rule his THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD ;and that it has the ability to do ;it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
HERE PAUL SHOWS IT CAN JUDGE AND HE SAYS THE THOUGHTS OF MAN THE ATTITUDES AND THE HEARTH ,so it talks of the same thing than in the previous scripture you quoted me ,this is what we imprint on our soul and that will become our own accuser ,we can not stand against our own works and deny it ,right yesMike
Quote Apparently, the soul can be DIVIDED FROM the spirit, meaning they are TWO different things, IMO. what I said is that the spirit that goes back to God his our soul wen we die all as been said and done do now the soul ours go back to God who ad given it to us ,from the start of our live but free of thoughts and action ,unwritten on ,we do the writings ,
so the flesh dies ,the soul with now our spirit on it (all we have done good or bad) goes back to God and stored for judgement ,
think about we are carrying our own judgement ,is this not what Christ said in John 3 the verdict, only our faith and a change in heart according to Gods will can save us right ?? YES
Mike
Lk 12:35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,
Lk 12:36 like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.
Lk 12:37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.
Lk 12:38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night.
Lk 12:39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.
Lk 12:40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
Lk 12:41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
Lk 12:42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?
Lk 12:43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns.
Lk 12:44 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Lk 12:45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk.
Lk 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Lk 12:47 “That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.
Lk 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.Mk 13:36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.
Mk 13:37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”what his a servant of Christ
what is it that Paul was so eager to teach to the gentiles Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2012,15:59) what I said is that the spirit that goes back to God his our soul wen we die all as been said and done do now the soul ours go back to God who ad given it to us ,from the start of our live but free of thoughts and action ,unwritten on ,we do the writings
I know that is what you are saying, Pierre. And I disagree with your understanding.YOU believe the soul goes back to God. I DON'T. I believe the SPIRIT goes back to God, and the SOUL goes to Hades, while the BODY decays.
I agree with you about a part of us on which “we do the writings”. It's just that YOU are calling this part the SPIRIT, and saying it goes back to God.
I'M calling that part the SOUL, and saying that it goes to Sheol to await the resurrection WHILE our SPIRIT goes back to God and our BODY decays.
If you can show a scripture that CLEARLY refutes my understanding, I'll be happy to look at it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2012,18:35) Quote (terraria @ Aug. 20 2012,15:59) what I said is that the spirit that goes back to God his our soul wen we die all as been said and done do now the soul ours go back to God who ad given it to us ,from the start of our live but free of thoughts and action ,unwritten on ,we do the writings
I know that is what you are saying, Pierre. And I disagree with your understanding.YOU believe the soul goes back to God. I DON'T. I believe the SPIRIT goes back to God, and the SOUL goes to Hades, while the BODY decays.
I agree with you about a part of us on which “we do the writings”. It's just that YOU are calling this part the SPIRIT, and saying it goes back to God.
I'M calling that part the SOUL, and saying that it goes to Sheol to await the resurrection WHILE our SPIRIT goes back to God and our BODY decays.
If you can show a scripture that CLEARLY refutes my understanding, I'll be happy to look at it.
MikeI do not have a scripture right now but I have a question;
what is the spirit that goes back to God as you understand it
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2012,03:34) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,23:27) Mike, * Jesus does a parable of Sheol/Hades..
* Two departed soul speaks
* One is suffering misery
* One as well as a third are experiencing comfort.
* There are two section of Hades that separated by an impassable abyss.
* A departed soul can be sent by Abraham to witness to the living.
So you believe that when we die, we are still alive and conscious and waiting for judgment in Sheol?
Mike,I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.
A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.
They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades. There are other Scriptures that speak of their characteristics but the translation of them often often obscures what is being spoke of. For example:
Isaiah 29:4
King James Version (KJV)4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
Isaiah 29:4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)4 Then you will be brought low;
From the earth you will speak,
And from the dust where you are prostrate
Your words will come.
Your voice will also be like that of a [a]spirit from the ground,
And your speech will whisper from the dust.Footnotes:
Isaiah 29:4 Or ghost
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,04:48) so let see your scriptures ?? 1. The SPIRIT goes back to God who gave it.
2. The SOUL goes to Sheol to sleep with our fathers.
3. The BODY counts for nothing and decays.[/quote]
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.The “dust” refers to the flesh body, which was made from dust, and to dust it returns.
The spirit, on the other hand, returns to God who gave it.
Genesis 15
15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age.If the dust returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God, then what is left to “go to our fathers”? It must be the soul.
Mike………Nothing is left , when you die you body goes to where you Fathers bodies all went and the Spirit goes back to him who gave it. That is It, trying to add to scripture to meet false concepts is wrong, being NO scripture say a Soul is still living when a person dies,.A man that is alive is a “LIVING SOUL” when he is dead he is dead and no soul any longer exists. The Spirit of life leaves him and returns back to God who gave it and his body is corrupted in the grave. His body is gathered back to where his fathers bodies were, in the grave. The term “Gather with his Fathers” is just saying he goes to the same place “the Grave” where they went after they died.
There is no “MYSTERIOUS” Living Souls in the Grave not one. It is Spirit and Living Flesh that is “US”, and when either one is gone our LIFE is GONE from us and we no longer exist as a “LIVING SOUL” any longer> Just that simple.
Scripture plainly say when a person dies their “THOUGHTS” Parish. There is no more mental activity going on after death. There is no activity in the grave at all. Scriptures have been posted many time showing that. Why do you just ignore them as if they were not there Mike?
peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
mike
Quote If the dust returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God, then what is left to “go to our fathers”? It must be the soul. the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus .
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2012,19:01) what is the spirit that goes back to God as you understand it
The force from God which animates us – like electricity makes a computer operate.It is the hard drive of the computer that does the thinking and problem solving, etc. I believe this to be the soul.
But the electricity which animates the computer (allowing it to function) is something different than the hard drive. The electricity doesn't think, or solve problems, etc. It only powers the hard drive so IT can do the thinking and problem solving.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2012,21:39) Mike, I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.
A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.
They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades.
Kerwin,I can't argue definitively against your point, because scripture seems to teach two differnent things.
We have Jesus seeming to imply that the souls of the dead ARE conscious, while Solomon tells us point blank that they are not.
There has to be some middle ground somewhere – information that we aren't privy to, I suppose.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2012,11:50) the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus
Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre. Would God destroy Himself?In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he? No. He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,12:25) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2012,19:01) what is the spirit that goes back to God as you understand it
The force from God which animates us – like electricity makes a computer operate.It is the hard drive of the computer that does the thinking and problem solving, etc. I believe this to be the soul.
But the electricity which animates the computer (allowing it to function) is something different than the hard drive. The electricity doesn't think, or solve problems, etc. It only powers the hard drive so IT can do the thinking and problem solving.
Mikethe electricity his this ;and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
DT 11:18 “ You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul;
DT 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
DT 30:6 “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
1SA 23:20 “Now then, O king, come down according to all the desire of your soul to do so; and our part shall be to surrender him into the king’s hand.”
PS 121:7 The LORD will protect you from all evil;
He will keep your soul.PR 24:12 If you say, “See, we did not know this,”
Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts?
And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
And will He not render to man according to his work?LK 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘ You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’
3JN 1:2 Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
John ,here shows two things the flesh and the soul what his our spirit in witch we have to worship God because he his spirit
Quote Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre. Would God destroy Himself? CAN GOD GIVE YOU ANYTHING ELSE THAT COULD BE USED TO WORSHIP HIM ???Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,12:35) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2012,11:50) the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus
Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre. Would God destroy Himself?In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he? No. He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL.
mIKEQuote In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he? No. He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL. DOES THAT SCRIPTURE CHANGES ANYTHING
our spirit his who we are if that is destroyed what would be left of us
tell me and if our soul his destroyed what is it that is left of us tell me NOTHING AT ALL
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,00:31) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2012,21:39) Mike, I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.
A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.
They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades.
Kerwin,I can't argue definitively against your point, because scripture seems to teach two differnent things.
We have Jesus seeming to imply that the souls of the dead ARE conscious, while Solomon tells us point blank that they are not.
There has to be some middle ground somewhere – information that we aren't privy to, I suppose.
Mike,It is my thought that Solomon was speaking of the corpse since the word he used translated to dead dead is sometimes translated corpse elsewhere. Jesus on the other hand was speaking of the soul.
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