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Hi Kerwin,
It is sad that most here still fail to realize that our views
can be both divergent and harmonious at the same time.…only the chaff needs to fall away…
…this is done when we add truth into the equation.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,23:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,21:25) Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,04:03) Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08) you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view
?
T;Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.
kwell now go back and show in scriptures how the word “ginomai” should be understood in the true meaning
T,Jesus is greater than Abraham. A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.
Hebrews 11
King James Version (KJV)39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34. Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58, like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.
KerwinJn 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
Jn 8:52 At this the Jews exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
Jn 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”you can see in those scriptures that the conversation does not goes around 'IF ABRAHAM IS GREATER OR JESUS” because they claim that all have died ,and Christ just told them in verse 51 that if anyone keep his word he will never see dead “
then in verse 53 a new question is asked ; Who do you think you are? and on this question Jesus answered :
Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
Jn 8:55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.
Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Jn 8:57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
Jn 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”so he identify for whom he works and what he was doing for him (keeping his word)that is his father who they call their God ,55 and in the following verses Christ tell them in 56 how Abraham felt at the” thought” of seeing my day ;in this way Christ had said that he was before Abraham was ,and when they tell him that he his not yet 50 years old, 57 ,then Christ added ; “before Abraham was born, I am!”58
so the original question;Jn 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets
was related to the fact that he said keep my word and you should not see dead ;
then the new question was ask; Who do you think you are? and so the answer also changed ,and after ward another question came out ;when he said that he was their and saw Abraham be happy about his day ;this broth to another comment of the Pharisees ;notice that he was not more than 50 years old and yet he sew Abraham ,and so Christ finish of by saying ; “before Abraham was born, I am!”58
so for those reasons I think you do not show the truth ,because Christ did not lie ,even John the baptist agree with what he said ;Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
also Paul ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.Jude ;Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
just to name a few;
Terricca……….You have correctly quoted it question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? . Jesus did not say he was alive as a existing “Being” before Abraham now did He?, you Preexistences add that Part to the text. You can not use that as a “PROOF TEXT” Because you are supposing That is what Jesus was saying but fact is he did not “Specifically” say that now did he Brother?
Now Before all AGES, Has nothing to do with a time Period, But as the context shows is relating as More in power and Authority in other words “AHEAD OF” in importances> The word in Greek means in importance, not necessarily meaning a TIME Period. Like the man came Before the Board, that means in front of, and has nothing to do with a time period at all. Are you following this Pierre?
peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34) Jesus is greater than Abraham. A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.
Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right>peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,02:41) Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34) Jesus is greater than Abraham. A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.
Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right>peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene
Gene B.Before GeneB. ''I am''.
During the second ww. ''I am.''wakeup.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,09:24) Terricca……….You have correctly quoted it question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? . Jesus did not say he was alive as a existing “Being” before Abraham now did He?, you Preexistences add that Part to the text. You can not use that as a “PROOF TEXT” Because you are supposing That is what Jesus was saying but fact is he did not “Specifically” say that now did he Brother? Now Before all AGES, Has nothing to do with a time Period, But as the context shows is relating as More in power and Authority in other words “AHEAD OF” in importances> The word in Greek means in importance, not necessarily meaning a TIME Period. Like the man came Before the Board, that means in front of, and has nothing to do with a time period at all. Are you following this Pierre?
peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………..gene
genedid i changed the meaning of the scriptures ???no
but you do,big time,
Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,06:23) K Quote T; What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
is an image the same as form
it depend what you describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere a visible being an invisible being ,can it be done this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them ,and so the IMAGE would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,
WHAT YOU THINK???
T;I believe you are correct in some ways and incorrect in others.
Ephesians 4:24
King James Version (KJV)24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Paraphrases of Ephesians 4:24
1] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's likeness is created in righteousness and true holiness.
2] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's image is created in righteousness and true holiness.
3] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's form is created in righteousness and true holiness.
4] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's reflection is created in righteousness and true holiness.
5] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's shape is created in righteousness and true holiness.
All these mean the same as the are comparing those things the new man has in common with Jehovah.
Does the new man, who exists in the image of Jehovah according to Ephesians 4:24, view equality with God as something not to be grasped; and so empties himself; taking on the image of a servant?
Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,17:05) Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,06:23) K Quote T; What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
is an image the same as form
it depend what you describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere a visible being an invisible being ,can it be done this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them ,and so the IMAGE would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,
WHAT YOU THINK???
T;I believe you are correct in some ways and incorrect in others.
Ephesians 4:24
King James Version (KJV)24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Paraphrases of Ephesians 4:24
1] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's likeness is created in righteousness and true holiness.
2] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's image is created in righteousness and true holiness.
3] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's form is created in righteousness and true holiness.
4] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's reflection is created in righteousness and true holiness.
5] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's shape is created in righteousness and true holiness.
All these mean the same as the are comparing those things the new man has in common with Jehovah.
Does the new man, who exists in the image of Jehovah according to Ephesians 4:24, view equality with God as something not to be grasped; and so empties himself; taking on the image of a servant?
KQuote I believe you are correct in some ways and incorrect in others. I believe I am correct in all I said ;
you are not proving anything ;take that scripture;EPH 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.what is it that scripture says
1) it ask to put on what we had not before
2)gives the reason why we should do it
3) it give the final achievement or results of that task
I do not understand what is it you try to make me seen
did I miss some thing
if you try to connect this to Christ ,this can not be done for the reason that we were not created in the form or nature of God but of men,BUT CHRIST WAS CREATED IN THE FORM OR NATURE OF GOD AND SO THEIR IS ONLY ONE WAY TO GO AND THAT IS DOWNWARD ,BECAUSE HE COULD NOT BECOME GOD ALMIGHTY right
yesQuote (Wakeup @ July 25 2012,23:03) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,02:41) Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right> peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene
Gene B.Before GeneB. ''I am''.
During the second ww. ''I am.''wakeup.
Wakeup,The Scripture does not state before Abraham, I am, so your questions are irrelevant to it. These are relevant, and I believe what you intended.
Before Gene to “ginomai”, I am.
Before WWII to “ginomai”, I am.
T,
1] I gave proof that the words “image” and “form” can be used in one another's place without changing the meaning of what is said.
2] I gave proof that new man is created in the image (form) of God.
3] I asked if the new man, who exists in the form (image) of God, would:
a} see equality with God something not to be grasped
b} empty himself
c} choose to take on the form (image) of a servant.I am not revealing a complicated idea, nor one I think you disagree with. But if you wish to hear what has been opened to me; then yes a righteous man will do these things.
Gene said:
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2012,09:24) question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? .
And Kerwin said:Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)
In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34. Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58,
like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.Do you guys listen to yourselves? What kind of nonsense is this?
I think, therefore I am. – René Descartes
Kerwin, can you or Gene tell me what the words “I am” mean in this famous philosophical statement? (Please just give me a direct and honest answer.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2012,08:19) Gene said: Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2012,09:24) question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? .
And Kerwin said:Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)
In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34. Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58,
like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.Do you guys listen to yourselves? What kind of nonsense is this?
I think, therefore I am. – René Descartes
Kerwin, can you or Gene tell me what the words “I am” mean in this famous philosophical statement? (Please just give me a direct and honest answer.)
Mike,He is considering.
Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,19:57) T, 1] I gave proof that the words “image” and “form” can be used in one another's place without changing the meaning of what is said.
2] I gave proof that new man is created in the image (form) of God.
3] I asked if the new man, who exists in the form (image) of God, would:
a} see equality with God something not to be grasped
b} empty himself
c} choose to take on the form (image) of a servant.I am not revealing a complicated idea, nor one I think you disagree with. But if you wish to hear what has been opened to me; then yes a righteous man will do these things.
Kerwinyou only give me opinions ,
could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you
and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,
T;
Quote Kerwin you only give me opinions ,
could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you
and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,
Edited by terraricca on July 26 2012,10:24
What you write sounds like foolishness as I obvious did not give my opinion in any way. Everything I said is a fact, but requires the correct understanding of English and how the new man exists in the form (image) of Jehovah.
I am not sure what question I did not answer. Perhaps you can repeat it. Thank you!
Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,23:14) T; Quote Kerwin you only give me opinions ,
could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you
and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,
Edited by terraricca on July 26 2012,10:24
What you write sounds like foolishness as I obvious did not give my opinion in any way. Everything I said is a fact, but requires the correct understanding of English and how the new man exists in the form (image) of Jehovah.
I am not sure what question I did not answer. Perhaps you can repeat it. Thank you!
KOne page back
T;
Mankind was created in the form of God; then went in search of many schemes.
Jesus, like Adam before him, was created in the form of God.
Adam was created a new man, just as Jesus would later be, but , unlike Jesus, chose to put on the old man when he disobeyed.
Does Jesus wear the new man created like God in true holiness and righteousness?
Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,11:11) Quote (Wakeup @ July 25 2012,23:03) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,02:41) Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right> peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene
Gene B.Before GeneB. ''I am''.
During the second ww. ''I am.''wakeup.
Wakeup,The Scripture does not state before Abraham, I am, so your questions are irrelevant to it. These are relevant, and I believe what you intended.
Before Gene to “ginomai”, I am.
Before WWII to “ginomai”, I am.
Kerwin.Jesus simply means; before Abraham, I was already in existence,even though I am only 33yrs old.
What is the fuss.
wakeup.
Quote (terraricca @ July 26 2012,17:29) Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,23:14) T; Quote Kerwin you only give me opinions ,
could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you
and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,
Edited by terraricca on July 26 2012,10:24
What you write sounds like foolishness as I obvious did not give my opinion in any way. Everything I said is a fact, but requires the correct understanding of English and how the new man exists in the form (image) of Jehovah.
I am not sure what question I did not answer. Perhaps you can repeat it. Thank you!
KOne page back
Terra.You quoted in the previous page.Jesus saying;
If anyone follow my words,he will never see death.
We know we all die; so how can we not see death?
can you explain?wakeup.
To All………the Word BEFORE can be rendered in two way, as in Time or Place. Example,
I shall pass “BEFORE” You. As God did Moses, this is a PLACE or POSITION meaning in front of.
I shall go before the Court, again a PLACE of POSITION, has nothing to do with Time at all>
I shall go before the Court before 10:00, that implies “both” Position and time.
But if you can, “Notice this”, even in time it still is dealing with a POSITION (in time).
Preexistences and Trinitarians use this Word as a time “only” becasue it enforces their Dogmas of Preexistence , Just as they twist up the word of John 1, to mean Jesus instead of what is actually written. Both are Separatists Who can not believe Jesus was a prophesied Human Being that God Perfected and Used for the salvation of Mankind. They do not want us to have our true Identity With Jesus , but endless work to move him away “Separating” Mankind from Jesus These are indeed Clouds without Water who should tremble at the work of iniquity they do. The blind leading the blind who are in a ditch and don't even KNOW IT . IMO
Trinitarians and Preexistences are No Different they “BOTH” are workers of Separation IMO
peace and love to you all ……………………………………..Gene
Gene,
You're doing it again in this last post of yours. You are offering mulitple other things certain words could mean, but not giving any thought to how those meanings would alter John 8:58.
For example, if the word “before” referred to “position” in 8:58, there would be no word “ginomai” used.
But it doesn't say “before Abraham I am”, as in “I am before Abraham in position”. Instead, it says, “before Abraham EXISTED, I have been”.
In order for “position” to be the meaning here, the word “existed” must vanish from the scripture. Would you like to re-write the scripture without that word, Gene? Or is it better that we form our understanding around the words that were actually written?
P.S. I'm waiting for your answer to my question:
In the statement, “I think, therefore I am”, what does the “I am” part mean? Doesn't it mean “I exist”? YES or NO?
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