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Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04) Yes Kerwin, That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly. Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding. Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God. But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings. They already are in that likeness, right?
Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”. Are we in agreement on that part? I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.
Mike,What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.
1) She is the exact form of her mother.
2) She is the exact image of her mother.
kerwinit could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way
this is 1 and 2
T;What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
What does image mean in the following passage?
Colossians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Here is another passage to consider.
Ephesians 4:24
King James Version (KJV)24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2012,14:54) Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04) Yes Kerwin, That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly. Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding. Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God. But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings. They already are in that likeness, right?
Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”. Are we in agreement on that part? I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.
Mike,What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.
1) She is the exact form of her mother.
2) She is the exact image of her mother.
kerwinit could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way
this is 1 and 2
T;What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
What does image mean in the following passage?
Colossians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Here is another passage to consider.
Ephesians 4:24
King James Version (KJV)24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Kerwin…………You have presented this right IMO . That is the way i see it also. Good Scholarship Brother.peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2012,21:54) Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04) Yes Kerwin, That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly. Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding. Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God. But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings. They already are in that likeness, right?
Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”. Are we in agreement on that part? I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.
Mike,What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.
1) She is the exact form of her mother.
2) She is the exact image of her mother.
kerwinit could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way
this is 1 and 2
T;What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
What does image mean in the following passage?
Colossians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Here is another passage to consider.
Ephesians 4:24
King James Version (KJV)24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
KQuote T; What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
What does image mean in the following passage?
Colossians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Here is another passage to consider.
Ephesians 4:24
King James Version (KJV)24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
in both cases it talks about the spirit inside the flesh
it is render that way because I think that we can not change our flesh body in witch we have been born ,THE OUTSIDE LOOKS
Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,22:32) Mike, What likeness was Seth in before he was made in the likeness of Adam?
No form at all, Kerwin. Seth was non-existent up until the point he was made in the likeness of a human being like his father.Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,21:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,05:55) Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,20:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26)
Read the context, Kerwin.57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”
The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did. He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.
In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim. Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.
Mike,Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?
From what I just posted, it is clear the Jews DIDN'T know what they were talking about.But JESUS knew what they asked, and HE knew what HE was talking about when he gave them the answer he gave them.
Mike,Where did Jesus claim that he saw Abraham?
Why Kerwin? Is this another diversion? Jesus said Abraham was glad to see his day, and he saw it.The Jews took this to mean Jesus and Abraham had seen each other, and therefore asked what they asked.
But why are you talking about this stuff when you're supposed to be figuring out a reason that Jesus would have said he existed before Abraham existed if he didn't.
K
Quote T; What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
is an image the same as form
it depend what you describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere a visible being an invisible being ,can it be done this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them ,and so the IMAGE would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,
WHAT YOU THINK???
Mike and Terraricca;
I already pointed out the fact that the word “ginomai” in John 8:58 has many meanings.
Mike introduced the idea of context from John 8:57 as a determinate which is correct.
I asked why he assumed the Jews were correct,
He said he did not as they were wrong about Jesus' age.
I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.
It appears both of you believe that the Jews inferred that conclusion from the fact Abraham saw Jesus' day.
The Jews neglected to consider that Abraham searched to discover what and what matter the Spirit of Christ signify when it testified of Jesus' day.
1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.Quote (kerwin @ July 23 2012,19:58) I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.
What Jesus pointed out is that he was in existence before Abraham was in existence.That was his answer to, “you are not yet 50 years old”.
Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,19:58) Mike and Terraricca; I already pointed out the fact that the word “ginomai” in John 8:58 has many meanings.
Mike introduced the idea of context from John 8:57 as a determinate which is correct.
I asked why he assumed the Jews were correct,
He said he did not as they were wrong about Jesus' age.
I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.
It appears both of you believe that the Jews inferred that conclusion from the fact Abraham saw Jesus' day.
The Jews neglected to consider that Abraham searched to discover what and what matter the Spirit of Christ signify when it testified of Jesus' day.
1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KQuote I already pointed out the fact that the word “ginomai” in John 8:58 has many meanings. you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view
?Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 24 2012,08:17) Quote (kerwin @ July 23 2012,19:58) I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.
What Jesus pointed out is that he was in existence before Abraham was in existence.That was his answer to, “you are not yet 50 years old”.
Mike,So you assume that the Jews knew what they were speaking of even though Peter spoke of the prophets seeing Jesus' self-sacrifice even though they were not there physically.
Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08) you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view
?
T;Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.
Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,21:03) Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08) you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view
?
T;Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.
Hi Kerwin,Yes indeed!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,04:03) Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08) you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view
?
T;Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.
kwell now go back and show in scriptures how the word “ginomai” should be understood in the true meaning
Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,18:23) K Quote T; What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
is an image the same as form
it depend what you describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere a visible being an invisible being ,can it be done this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them ,and so the IMAGE would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,
WHAT YOU THINK???
Kwhen will you answer a direct question ,or can you
Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,04:00) Mike, So you assume that the Jews knew what they were speaking of even though Peter spoke of the prophets seeing Jesus' self-sacrifice even though they were not there physically.
Kerwin,This is the second time you've asked me the same question, and my answer is the same as the last time: NO, the Jews apparently DIDN'T know what they were talking about.
The Jews thought the same thing YOU do: That Jesus was nothing more than a human being who was less than 50 years old. Jesus explained how both you and they were WRONG when he said he had existed even before Abraham existed.
What part of this are you not getting?
Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,21:25) Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,04:03) Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08) you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view
?
T;Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.
kwell now go back and show in scriptures how the word “ginomai” should be understood in the true meaning
T,Jesus is greater than Abraham. A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.
Hebrews 11
King James Version (KJV)39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34. Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58, like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2012,04:33) Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,04:00) Mike, So you assume that the Jews knew what they were speaking of even though Peter spoke of the prophets seeing Jesus' self-sacrifice even though they were not there physically.
Kerwin,This is the second time you've asked me the same question, and my answer is the same as the last time: NO, the Jews apparently DIDN'T know what they were talking about.
The Jews thought the same thing YOU do: That Jesus was nothing more than a human being who was less than 50 years old. Jesus explained how both you and they were WRONG when he said he had existed even before Abraham existed.
What part of this are you not getting?
Mike,The fact is that Jesus was conceived in Mary thirty or so years previous but that he did not explicitly state that he saw Abraham.
Those unbelieving Jews should also be aware that Abraham did indeed see the Christ's suffering on the cross as Scripture declared him to be a prophet, Genesis 20:7.
Being as Abraham saw Jesus' self-sacrifice and yet he was not seen by Jesus at that time, reveals that the unbelieving Jews conclusion that Jesus saw Abraham was presumptuous and uniformed.
Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,21:27) Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,18:23) K Quote T; What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.
is an image the same as form
it depend what you describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere a visible being an invisible being ,can it be done this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them ,and so the IMAGE would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,
WHAT YOU THINK???
Kwhen will you answer a direct question ,or can you
T,I plan on doing so though I have a lot to accomplish of late. God willing I will get back to you.
Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)
In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34. Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58,
like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.
Hi Kerwin,Another excellent way to describe what is meant in John 8:58.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
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