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T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO . IN Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born? Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO
The Work of SEPARATION of the identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both. Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN” You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs. You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.
T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO
peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2012,01:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,05:07)
From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?
Philippians 2 is speaking of an event that occurred.
So then Phil 2:5-6 truly teaches, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, [although he WAS] existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped…….”Are we in agreement on this point?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2012,07:25) IN Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context.
Gene,The CONTEXT of Phil 2 is that Jesus WAS existing in the form of God, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being. It's good that you understand “existing in the form of God” as a past tense statement from Paul's point of view. I think Kerwin is finally ready to DIRECTLY acknowledge this point too. And just last week, I helped Marty, who had been insisting that it was a present tense statement, to see the truth of the matter.
So now that we all agree “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE statement from the time Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians, we only have to decide HOW FAR in the past it refers to.
You guys offer “he was existing in the form of God WHILE a human being, AND THEN was made into the likeness of a human being”.
We offer, “he was existing in the form of God in heaven, AND THEN was made into the likeness of a human being”.
Now I ask you: Which one actually makes sense? The one where a HUMAN BEING was MADE in the likeness of a human being?
Or the one where someone was existing in a NON-HUMAN BEING form, and then was MADE the likeness of a human being?
To me, it's a no brainer even if we only used that one passage. But once we start comparing Phil 2 with the other 50 scriptures that also support the pre-existence of Jesus, it's no longer even a contest.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2012,07:25) Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born?
If the BEING Jesus said he existed before Abraham existed, then why would YOU assume that he existed as something other than a BEING? Do you have any scriptural reason to assume that he DID exist before Abraham, but NOT as a being?T8,
You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did. It clearly does not state that before Abraham “ginomai”, I am. “ginomai” has many meaning of which you or others can cherry pick the one they fell more comfortable. Basing a teaching on such a hard to understand Scripture instead of using more easily understood to understand it is questionable behavior. “ginomai” is a word used of fulfilled prophecy and Jesus is addressed as the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15.
I doubt that is what is speaking of as just like everyone else Abraham is fulfilled after Jesus for all are fulfilled in him. Jesus started out the conversation speaking of that fulfillment.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25) T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO . IN Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born? Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both. Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN” You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs. You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.
T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO
peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene
Gene B.John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?
Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-
Go and work this one out.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ July 18 2012,06:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25) T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO . IN Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born? Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both. Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN” You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs. You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.
T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO
peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene
Gene B.John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?
Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-
Go and work this one out.
wakeup.
Good post wakeupAnd so in heaven their are two gods as well God almighty and the god that made it that men became gods SATAN
Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,23:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25) T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO . IN Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born? Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both. Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN” You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs. You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.
T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO
peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene
Gene B.John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?
Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-
Go and work this one out.
wakeup.
Wakeup…….what you are saying has nothing to do with my Post. But Here is some for you. Jesus said “for thou art the “ONLY” true GOD” Now what does the word ONLY mean to you. do you Believe what Jesus said? , And what about Paul who said thou are many “SO-CALLED” Gods but unto Us there is ONLY ONE God. Jesus was chiding those Pharisees as people who were given the representations of God to the People By God the Father and they were not fulfilling their responsibilities of the Positions given them .Just a was with Moses , he was God representative on earth to the Isrealites and was therefore as God to them. When God give a person those responsibilities they are (IN A SENSE) a God to them being representatives of HIM. Even So with Jesus, But Non of that Make any of then a REAL GOD> IMO
peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2012,09:07) Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,23:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25) T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO . IN Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born? Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both. Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN” You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs. You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.
T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO
peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene
Gene B.John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?
Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-
Go and work this one out.
wakeup.
Wakeup…….what you are saying has nothing to do with my Post. But Here is some for you. Jesus said “for thou art the “ONLY” true GOD” Now what does the word ONLY mean to you. do you Believe what Jesus said? , And what about Paul who said thou are many “SO-CALLED” Gods but unto Us there is ONLY ONE God. Jesus was chiding those Pharisees as people who were given the representations of God to the People By God the Father and they were not fulfilling their responsibilities of the Positions given them .Just a was with Moses , he was God representative on earth to the Isrealites and was therefore as God to them. When God give a person those responsibilities they are (IN A SENSE) a God to them being representatives of HIM. Even So with Jesus, But Non of that Make any of then a REAL GOD> IMO
peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………..gene
GeneSo what you are saying IS that their is only one true almighty GOD ,who his the GOD of Gods ,right
This I do not think anyone will dispute this.
Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44) T8, You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.
Read the context, Kerwin.57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”
The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did. He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.
In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim. Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2012,07:20) Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2012,01:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,05:07)
From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?
Philippians 2 is speaking of an event that occurred.
So then Phil 2:5-6 truly teaches, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, [although he WAS] existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped…….”Are we in agreement on this point?
Mike,Jesus was in the form of Jehovah and because he was in the form of Jehovah he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped but instead chose to empty himself and take on the form of a servant.
That example sums up the mind-set of Jesus.
Yes Kerwin,
That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly. Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding. Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God. But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings. They already are in that likeness, right?
Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”. Are we in agreement on that part? I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26) Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44) T8, You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.
Read the context, Kerwin.57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”
The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did. He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.
In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim. Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.
Mike,Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04) Yes Kerwin, That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly. Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding. Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God. But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings. They already are in that likeness, right?
Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”. Are we in agreement on that part? I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.
Mike,What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.
1) She is the exact form of her mother.
2) She is the exact image of her mother.
Quote (t8 @ June 22 2006,20:37) Some teach or speculate that the Angel of the Lord is a pre-existant Christ. Again this is speculation, but I forward these 2 scriptures that could point to this: Judges 13:16-18
16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.
17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.We know Isaiah 9:6 is Christ and he is called wonderful counselor and the Angel of the Lord is called 'Wonderful'.
NOTE: There were no commas in the original texts.The word 'wonderful' in both scriptures are as follows:
Judges 13:16-18 Transliteration – pil'iy {pil-ee'} or paliy' {paw-lee'}
Word Origin – from 6381
Part of Speech – adjective
Usage in the KJV – secret 1, wonderful 1, variant 2Isaiah 9:6 Transliteration – pele' {peh'-leh}
Word Origin – from 6381
Part of Speech – noun masculine
Usage in the KJV – wonder 8, wonderful 3, wonderfully 1, marvellousThey are effectively the same word, but one is used as an adjective and the other as a noun.
This on it's own doesn't hold much water, but there are other verses that could point to this notion.
Acts:7:36-39
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.Now compare the next 3 scriptures:
Numbers 21:5-6
5 The people spoke against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food.”
6 The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.Judges 2:1
1 Now the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you,1 Corinthians 10:9 KJV
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.So in 3 accounts we have the LORD, Angel of the Lord, and Christ. Although some other translations do not have the word 'Christ' in this verse. (Could be the Trinity bias of the KJV at work?)
Anyway, are they the same being?
Are they different beings of rank working toward the same purpose?So far I have speculated that the Angel of the Lord is Christ.
To speculate that they are all different beings, I give this next verse:Revelation 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant JohnWhat do others think?
T8.The word of God did appear as an angel sometimes.
But we can understand why he did not identify himself as christ.
because the christ is still future to them.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,20:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26) Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44) T8, You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.
Read the context, Kerwin.57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”
The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did. He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.
In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim. Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.
Mike,Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?
From what I just posted, it is clear the Jews DIDN'T know what they were talking about.But JESUS knew what they asked, and HE knew what HE was talking about when he gave them the answer he gave them.
Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2012,01:54) Mike, What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.
1) She is the exact form of her mother.
2) She is the exact image of her mother.
I don't know.I could mold some clay into the FORM of a hummingbird, and I could also show you a photo I took which is an IMAGE of a hummingbird. In my analogy there is a difference, but I suppose the words are sometimes synonyms.
Why do you ask?
Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04) Yes Kerwin, That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly. Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding. Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God. But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings. They already are in that likeness, right?
Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”. Are we in agreement on that part? I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.
Mike,What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.
1) She is the exact form of her mother.
2) She is the exact image of her mother.
kerwinit could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way
this is 1 and 2
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,06:01) Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2012,01:54) Mike, What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.
1) She is the exact form of her mother.
2) She is the exact image of her mother.
I don't know.I could mold some clay into the FORM of a hummingbird, and I could also show you a photo I took which is an IMAGE of a hummingbird. In my analogy there is a difference, but I suppose the words are sometimes synonyms.
Why do you ask?
Mike;Because Scripture uses image more than form to express the same idea.
2 Corinthians 4:4
King James Version (KJV)4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
and
Colossians 1:15
King James Version (KJV)15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Could the word form be used instead of image in the above two passages without changing the meaning?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,05:55) Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,20:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26) Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44) T8, You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.
Read the context, Kerwin.57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”
The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did. He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.
In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim. Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.
Mike,Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?
From what I just posted, it is clear the Jews DIDN'T know what they were talking about.But JESUS knew what they asked, and HE knew what HE was talking about when he gave them the answer he gave them.
Mike,Where did Jesus claim that he saw Abraham?
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