- This topic is empty.
- Posts
g
Quote Marty……….I asked you Did GOD ” CREATE GOOD YES or NO PLEASE. Saying the scripture also stated that is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance is true, that itself tells us it is not from our own “FREEWILL” Choices, that lead us to repentance, if it is from God right? you answered you own question, but none of that answers what we were are talking about. If you believe He create Good then please just answer YES. OK and if you answer yes , then please tell us how do we know what is GOOD if EVIL is not PRESENT To understand what is Good, Evil MUST be PRESENT, can you at least understand that? your understanding is standing after the fact that all men have sinned ;and so we FEEL THAT WE ARE NOT RIGHT ,TO SOME OF US ANYWAY AND SO LOOK FOR THE RIGHTEOUSNESS IN GOD AND WHEN WE FIND IT WE FEEL THAT THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO BE INFLUENCED WITH ,AND ACCEPT IT AND SO REJECT THIS EVIL WORLD ,
IT IS LIKE BEING INSIDE A CAVE ALL YOUR LIVE AND THEN SEEING A GLIMPSE OF LIGHT AND NOW FEEL THE NEED TO GO TO THAT LIGHT ;
WE CANNOT PLACE OURSELVES IN THE SAME POSITION THAT ADAM AND EVE WHERE ,THAT POSITION IS GONE LONG AGO AND LOST ,WE ARE NOW IN THE POSITION FOR REGAIN IT ;
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 01 2014,04:53) The tree of GOOD and EVIL was put there,
before EVE sinned.wakeup.
wrong, wakeup, “the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil” was in the garden.God gave Adam the knowledge of what that good and evil was, telling him not to eat from the tree because in the day that he ate he would die. So, then the knowledge of the good was to obey God's commandment, and the knowledge of the evil was to disobey.
God told Adam what would happen if he ate of the tree, and he chose to eat when Eve gave him to eat from it instead of correcting her, so that they could go to God with a repentant heart.
Adam found that God was true to His Word, and he died spiritually, or he was separated from God, being cast out of the garden of Eden into the world, and ultimately, died a physical death.
Quote 8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Wakeup @ Feb. 28 2014,00:53) MikeB. OK; that makes three of you.
You; Marty and Terra.
wakeup.
Three what? Three people who know that none of the nine scriptures you posted actually say God created evil, and that you are scared to discuss each of them one at a time because you already know your beliefs will be shown to be flawed?That sounds about right.
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 01 2014,05:35) Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 01 2014,04:53) The tree of GOOD and EVIL was put there,
before EVE sinned.wakeup.
wrong, wakeup, “the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil” was in the garden.God gave Adam the knowledge of what that good and evil was, telling him not to eat from the tree because in the day that he ate he would die. So, then the knowledge of the good was to obey God's commandment, and the knowledge of the evil was to disobey.
God told Adam what would happen if he ate of the tree, and he chose to eat when Eve gave him to eat from it instead of correcting her, so that they could go to God with a repentant heart.
Adam found that God was true to His Word, and he died spiritually, or he was separated from God, being cast out of the garden of Eden into the world, and ultimately, died a physical death.
Quote 8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.1.Who put the tree and the serpent there?
2.For what purpose?
3.Where did that serpent come from?
4.Was that serpent good or EVIL; **BEFORE Eve sinned**?Please answer those simple questions without preaching.
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2014,11:49) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 28 2014,00:53) MikeB. OK; that makes three of you.
You; Marty and Terra.
wakeup.
Three what? Three people who know that none of the nine scriptures you posted actually say God created evil, and that you are scared to discuss each of them one at a time because you already know your beliefs will be shown to be flawed?That sounds about right.
MikeB.Stop beating about the bush.
Just post them nine scriptures.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 01 2014,17:03) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 01 2014,05:35) Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 01 2014,04:53) The tree of GOOD and EVIL was put there,
before EVE sinned.wakeup.
wrong, wakeup, “the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil” was in the garden.God gave Adam the knowledge of what that good and evil was, telling him not to eat from the tree because in the day that he ate he would die. So, then the knowledge of the good was to obey God's commandment, and the knowledge of the evil was to disobey.
God told Adam what would happen if he ate of the tree, and he chose to eat when Eve gave him to eat from it instead of correcting her, so that they could go to God with a repentant heart.
Adam found that God was true to His Word, and he died spiritually, or he was separated from God, being cast out of the garden of Eden into the world, and ultimately, died a physical death.
Quote 8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.1.Who put the tree and the serpent there?
2.For what purpose?
3.Where did that serpent come from?
4.Was that serpent good or EVIL; **BEFORE Eve sinned**?Please answer those simple questions without preaching.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:God created all rational creatures with “a free will”, and apparently, the serpent whom God created had “a free will”, and so, the serpent tempted Eve to disobey God's commandment of “his own free will”. God is not a partaker of his sin. And Eve and Adam also acted of “their own free will”.
Is it a sin to be tempted? Or is the sin to yield to the temptation?
Yes, God had for-seen that this would happen and He allowed it, but He did not create evil. It was the serpent that was “the Father of Lies” and it was Adam who brought that spirit into this world.
We even now as Christians are in the world, and we may be tempted and tried every day, but we do not have to yield to the temptation, do we?
It is in this world that we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives. If we did not have this world where we can learn to obey the Word of God, we could not become like Jesus, who is the express image of God's person.
The serpent was not evil until he tempted Eve. Prior to that he was a creature who had “free will”.
Keep studying and perhaps, one day, you will understand just how wonderful and good our God really is, and you will understand His Wisdom in allowing the evil that entered into the world and does presently, prevail through sinners.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty………Show ONE SCRIPTURE where is say GOD CREATED all RATIONAL CREATURES with a WILL that was “FREE” > Please post it i have never seen that yet, but being you say he did then post it OK> Prove the serpent was not evil until he tempted Eve. You draw a lot of conclusions but no scriptural backing it seems. Tell us how you can have a “Rational Soul”, if it is void of both Good “and” evil, and another point why does it say AFTER the ATE THEIR EYES WERE OPENED? Why weren't they opened before they ate if they had such a “RATIONAL” Soul.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 01 2014,00:05) MikeB. Stop beating about the bush.
Just post them nine scriptures.wakeup.
Exodus 4:11 New World Translation
At that Jehovah said to him: “Who appointed a mouth for man or who appoints the speechless or the deaf or the clear-sighted or the blind? Is it not I, Jehovah?Deuteronomy 32:39 New American Standard Bible
See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.1 Samuel 2:6 New International Version
“The LORD brings death and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave and raises up.Job 26:13 NET Bible
By his breath he skies became fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.Lamentations 3:38 New Living Translation
Does not the Most High send both calamity and good?Psalm 78:49 English Standard Version
He let loose on them his burning anger, wrath, indignation, and distress, a company of destroying angels.Isaiah 45:7 Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.Isaiah 54:16 GOD'S WORD® Translation
I've created blacksmiths to fan the coals into flames and to produce useful weapons. I've also created destroyers to bring destruction.Amos 3:6 International Standard Version
And when an alarm sounds in the city, the people will tremble, won't they? If there is trouble in a city, the LORD has brought it about, has he not?There you go, Wakeup. Nine scriptures from nine different translations – and not one of them says God created evil.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2014,09:29) Marty………Show ONE SCRIPTURE where is say GOD CREATED all RATIONAL CREATURES with a WILL that was “FREE”…………
Leviticus 22:21 NET
If a man presents a peace offering sacrifice to the LORD for a special votive offering or for a freewill offering from the herd or the flock, it must be flawless to be acceptable; it must have no flaw.Kerwin needs to re-read this one, because he thinks Jesus Christ offered up to God a flawed, corrupted, and sinful body like the rest of us have.
Anyway Gene, these offerings were made of the people's “free will”.
You and Wakeup are severely confused on this issue. I've stayed out of it for the most part, because Marty is saying all the right things.
But I will point out two things for you guys:
1. If Jehovah created evil itself, then Jehovah alone is solely responsible for all the evil today. If a child gets raped, Jehovah is the one who caused it. If a widow gets robbed, Jehovah is the one who caused it. If a priest gets murdered, then Jehovah is the one who caused it.
You guys don't seem to be thinking this thing through very well. And NO Gene, Jehovah didn't create “good”. Both “good” and “evil” are byproducts of Jehovah creating beings with free will. To do what pleases Jehovah is “good”, and to do what displeases Him is “bad”, or “evil”.
God didn't create the actual ACT of you doing either “good” or “evil”. These are byproducts of you having a free will.
2. Jehovah certainly created Satan, as well as Hitler. But He didn't create these beings AS “evil beings”. He created wonderful creatures with the free will to be anything they wanted to be. They are the ones who chose to be evil.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2014,02:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2014,09:29) Marty………Show ONE SCRIPTURE where is say GOD CREATED all RATIONAL CREATURES with a WILL that was “FREE”…………
Leviticus 22:21 NET
If a man presents a peace offering sacrifice to the LORD for a special votive offering or for a freewill offering from the herd or the flock, it must be flawless to be acceptable; it must have no flaw.Kerwin needs to re-read this one, because he thinks Jesus Christ offered up to God a flawed, corrupted, and sinful body like the rest of us have.
Anyway Gene, these offerings were made of the people's “free will”.
You and Wakeup are severely confused on this issue. I've stayed out of it for the most part, because Marty is saying all the right things.
But I will point out two things for you guys:
1. If Jehovah created evil itself, then Jehovah alone is solely responsible for all the evil today. If a child gets raped, Jehovah is the one who caused it. If a widow gets robbed, Jehovah is the one who caused it. If a priest gets murdered, then Jehovah is the one who caused it.
You guys don't seem to be thinking this thing through very well. And NO Gene, Jehovah didn't create “good”. Both “good” and “evil” are byproducts of Jehovah creating beings with free will. To do what pleases Jehovah is “good”, and to do what displeases Him is “bad”, or “evil”.
God didn't create the actual ACT of you doing either “good” or “evil”. These are byproducts of you having a free will.
2. Jehovah certainly created Satan, as well as Hitler. But He didn't create these beings AS “evil beings”. He created wonderful creatures with the free will to be anything they wanted to be. They are the ones who chose to be evil.
Mike…….If you care to look up the meaning of the words used there you will find it means a “VOLUNTARY” Offering , it absolutely has nothing to do with a WILL “itself”, being “FREE” but an “ACTION” of a WILL driven to do something. To Voluntary, to do something, is simply another word, that means from the self, I have never said we are not at LIBERTY to exercise our WILLS. now have I?I am not talking about the freedom of action, to carry out our “INFLUENCED” WILLS, but what is driving that action is hardly from a “FREE” source, but comes from our captivated mind set. Nothing free about it. Please show “ONE” SCRIPTURE that “specifically” says, we have a WILL that is FREE “ITSELF”, then you would have a Point. IMO
peace eand love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2014,12:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 02 2014,02:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 01 2014,09:29) Marty………Show ONE SCRIPTURE where is say GOD CREATED all RATIONAL CREATURES with a WILL that was “FREE”…………
Leviticus 22:21 NET
If a man presents a peace offering sacrifice to the LORD for a special votive offering or for a freewill offering from the herd or the flock, it must be flawless to be acceptable; it must have no flaw.Mike…….If you care to look up the meaning of the words used there you will find it means a “VOLUNTARY” Offering , it absolutely has nothing to do with a WILL “itself”, being “FREE”………..
This is what the Hebrew word means, Gene:1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offeringAnd here are the different ways that Hebrew word is translated in the KJV:
freewill offering 15, offerings 9, free offering 2, freely 2, willing offering 1, voluntary offering 1, plentiful 1, voluntarily 1, voluntary 1, willing 1, willingly 1
The word says “freewill” – yet you still argue against it.
Mike…………None of those is talking about the WILL itself being FREE , it is describing the Liberty to express and exercising our Wills without restraint> Think about it.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 03 2014,04:29) Mike…………None of those is talking about the WILL itself being FREE , it is describing the Liberty to express and exercising our Wills without restraint> Think about it.
Gene B.The wife you marry is by your own choice.
The car you own is by your choice.
The clothes you wear is by your choice.
The shoes you put on is by your choice.
The love for wife and children is by your own choice.
Your love for God is by your choice.wakeup.
Wakeup……..I agree, it is by our Wills, but i and not talking about our LIBERTY to express our DRIVEN or influenced WILLS, I am talking about the “DRIVEN WILL ITSELF, and that it is an “INFLUENCED” WILL and therefore is not FREE “ITSELF”.
Another words you chose a wife “WHY”, because you “wanted” to, but what made you want to, you chose a particular car “WHY” because you were driven to for one reason or another, same with you cloths , shoes, and etc. That thing that motivated you to chose, is what formed your Will, so can't you see, your will was formed to chose, and therefore was “ITSELF” not FREE” , even though we have LIBERTY or FREEDOM to “EXERCISE” those Choices of ours. I am not saying we do not have LIBERTY or FREEDOM to exercise those “influenced” wills of ours.
It is the WILL, “ITSELF” i am addressing and those WILLS are not “FREE” themselves, they are “INFLUENCED” WILLS that are given LIBERTY to be EXERCISED, By GOD. That is why Jesus said, “NO” man “CAN” come unto me unless the Father DRAW Him”, we have to have that “INFLUENCE” INFLUENCING us to come to Jesus, or we would not do it on our own. See what i am saying Wakeup?
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 02 2014,02:29) Marty………Show ONE SCRIPTURE where is say GOD CREATED all RATIONAL CREATURES with a WILL that was “FREE” > Please post it i have never seen that yet, but being you say he did then post it OK> Prove the serpent was not evil until he tempted Eve. You draw a lot of conclusions but no scriptural backing it seems. Tell us how you can have a “Rational Soul”, if it is void of both Good “and” evil, and another point why does it say AFTER the ATE THEIR EYES WERE OPENED? Why weren't they opened before they ate if they had such a “RATIONAL” Soul. peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Gene:I don't have a scripture which specifically states that God created all rational beings with a free will nor do I have a scripture which specifically states that the serpent was not evil prior to tempting Eve to sin.
My statements are based on the definition of the word “rational” which means:
Quote World English Dictionary rational (ˈræʃən ə l)
— adj
1. using reason or logic in thinking out a problem
2. in accordance with the principles of logic or reason; reasonable
3. of sound mind; sane: the patient seemed quite rational
4. endowed with the capacity to reason; capable of logical thought: man is a rational being
5. maths expressible as a ratio of two integers or polynomials: a rational number; a rational functionThis word as it relates to what the serpent did and what Adam and Eve did in that they were not forced to do what they did, but acted freely to make the decision that they made. You seem to think that because we have influences all around us that or will is not free. What is it that you want to do? Do it if there is something that you want to do.
I don't see anything that is stopping you. If it is something illegal, you may get away with it or you may not in this world, but if you are speaking that your will is not free because you will have to face the day of judgment and that you will not continue to live in the world to come unless you are born again and learn to obey God, then you are correct. Even so, I say that I have the freedom to make this decision, foolish as it may be.As for the serpent, the scriptures state that he was more crafty than any beast of the field that God created, and it does not say that he was evil prior to what he did in tempting Eve to sin, and God did not judge him for anything except for tempting Eve. God would have judged him for more than this if he was evil prior to tempting Eve, would, would He not?
Adam and Eve were in innocence prior to sinning against God, but they were able to reason. God told them what would happen if they ate from the “tree of knowledge of good and evil”, and they understood this, and Eve, reiterated what God said to Adam and what Adam apparently taught her, and Eve did a whole lot of reasoning when she was looking at the tree:
Quote 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Quote 3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden And so, this is how I arrived at the statements that I made “that all rational creatures” were created with “a free will”, and my statement that “serpent was not evil prior to sinning by causing Eve to sin”.
Now, you say we do not “have a free will”. Please post your scripture which states this.
Thanks,
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 04 2014,07:36) how could a animal sin
T.What??
Dont you know that the serpent was LUCIFER??
Posing as a serpent??wakeup.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 02 2014,11:29) Mike…………None of those is talking about the WILL itself being FREE , it is describing the Liberty to express and exercising our Wills without restraint> Think about it.
Gene,If we have the liberty to express our will without restraint, then we have a free will.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 04 2014,04:09) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 04 2014,07:36) how could a animal sin
T.What??
Dont you know that the serpent was LUCIFER??
Posing as a serpent??wakeup.
from MartyQuote that “serpent was not evil prior to sinning by causing Eve to sin”. I know that the serpent add nothing to do with anything it was the one behind it
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
