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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2014,15:54) Mike /Marty please read this Psalm very slowly ;
Psalm 107
Ps 107:1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
his love endures forever.
Ps 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say this—
those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,
Ps 107:3 those he gathered from the lands,
from east and west, from north and south.Ps 107:4 Some wandered in desert wastelands,
finding no way to a city where they could settle.
Ps 107:5 They were hungry and thirsty,
and their lives ebbed away.
Ps 107:6 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble,
and he delivered them from their distress.
Ps 107:7 He led them by a straight way
to a city where they could settle.
Ps 107:8 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for men,
Ps 107:9 for he satisfies the thirsty
and fills the hungry with good things.Ps 107:10 Some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,
Ps 107:11 for they had rebelled against the words of God
and despised the counsel of the Most High.
Ps 107:12 So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.
Ps 107:13 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
Ps 107:14 He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom
and broke away their chains.
Ps 107:15 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for men,
Ps 107:16 for he breaks down gates of bronze
and cuts through bars of iron.Ps 107:17 Some became fools through their rebellious ways
and suffered affliction because of their iniquities.
Ps 107:18 They loathed all food
and drew near the gates of death.
Ps 107:19 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
Ps 107:20 He sent forth his word and healed them;
he rescued them from the grave.
Ps 107:21 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for men.
Ps 107:22 Let them sacrifice thank offerings
and tell of his works with songs of joy.Ps 107:23 Others went out on the sea in ships;
they were merchants on the mighty waters.
Ps 107:24 They saw the works of the LORD,
his wonderful deeds in the deep.
Ps 107:25 For he spoke and stirred up a tempest
that lifted high the waves.
Ps 107:26 They mounted up to the heavens and went down to the depths;
in their peril their courage melted away.
Ps 107:27 They reeled and staggered like drunken men;
they were at their wits’ end.
Ps 107:28 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble,
and he brought them out of their distress.
Ps 107:29 He stilled the storm to a whisper;
the waves of the sea were hushed.
Ps 107:30 They were glad when it grew calm,
and he guided them to their desired haven.
Ps 107:31 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for men.
Ps 107:32 Let them exalt him in the assembly of the people
and praise him in the council of the elders.Ps 107:33 He turned rivers into a desert,
flowing springs into thirsty ground,
Ps 107:34 and fruitful land into a salt waste,
because of the wickedness of those who lived there.
Ps 107:35 He turned the desert into pools of water
and the parched ground into flowing springs;
Ps 107:36 there he brought the hungry to live,
and they founded a city where they could settle.
Ps 107:37 They sowed fields and planted vineyards
that yielded a fruitful harvest;
Ps 107:38 he blessed them, and their numbers greatly increased,
and he did not let their herds diminish.Ps 107:39 Then their numbers decreased, and they were humbled
by oppression, calamity and sorrow;
Ps 107:40 he who pours contempt on nobles
made them wander in a trackless waste.
Ps 107:41 But he lifted the needy out of their affliction
and increased their families like flocks.
Ps 107:42 The upright see and rejoice,
but all the wicked shut their mouths.Ps 107:43 Whoever is wise, let him heed these things
and consider the great love of the LORD.
So, what is your point? How do those scriptures relate to the fact that God has for-seen the end from the beginning?Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 27 2014,21:00) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2014,15:09) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 27 2014,07:11) Hi Mike: I hope that you can get him to see the truth which is plainly stated by the scripture. It does require someone one to interpret it. He states clearly that “He declares (tells us) the end from the beginning.
I give up trying, and so, I hope that you, or someone else can help him.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyI do understand that God knows and that because he his the source of his own plan he know all about it , so he can tell it from A to Z what it will be,
This ls my dilemma , can we say that God as fore knowledge even though we know he knows everything of his plan
Can we say that God as foreseen anything when we know that he his the source of all things ,I believe that someone that knows everything does not need foreknowledge or to foresee things,
but men who does not know , when he as received prophecy this give them foreknowledge and when it is explain to them they now can foresee what it is to come in the future
Is this view false
Hi Pierre:Yes, you are correct in stating that HE has all the knowledge of what will happen prior to it happening, but that is because he has already seen it happening that way from the beginning to the end, and that is to for-see, before it happened he knew that it would happen, and so he tells us by the scriptures those things that will come to pass in the future so that we, His children will be prepared for what is ahead.
But some things He did not tells such as the day and the Hour that He will send Jesus to reconcile the church unto himself in the rapture. This He did not even tell Jesus.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyQuote but that is because he has already seen it happening that way from the beginning to the end this i need to see in scriptures ;could and would are the words to me but that God as it already seen it
so i need scripture also their is a difference that God knows HIS PLAN ,THAT NO ONE CAN CHANGE; AND all the little side action of men ,are of no consequence to him ;beside that any men that chose to serve him becomes something to be looked after ,
2CH 6:23 then hear from heaven and act and judge Your servants, punishing the wicked by bringing his way on his own head and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.
this shows that the actions of men are going on in a continuous line ,and not foreseen but up to men to be doing good or evil,
2CH 19:2 Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, “ Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD and so bring wrath on yourself from the LORD?
2CH 24:7 For the sons of the wicked Athaliah had broken into the house of God and even used the holy things of the house of the LORD for the Baals.PS 1:1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the path of sinners,
Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!I do not believe that God as already seen everything ,i do know that his will and plan are not fully complete ,for the rescue of men ,that is , God as many plans yet to be said i the future ,
so this conversation is on the reconciliation only , the beginning (Adam sin) the end ( the restoration of the unity with God through Christ ) then another beginning starts without a end
Pierre,
Jehovah says in scripture that He can tell the end from the beginning. How? Because He already knows what the end will be. How? Because He can foresee that end.
Acts 16
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.18 Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
19 When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
Pierre, if even this lowly demon can foresee certain future events, why do you think God cannot?
And I already showed you Isaiah 41:22-23, where Jehovah is taunting the idols of the nations (actually, the people who believed those idols were gods) by telling them that if they were real gods, they would be able to foresee the future.
I'll show you one more, and after that I'm done with this discussion:
Deuteronomy 31
16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.Jehovah already knew in advance the things that WERE GOING TO happen, right?
In MY understanding, this is because God can FORESEE what's going to happen.
In YOUR understanding, this is because God planned to use His power to MAKE the nation He just rescued from Egypt sin against Him.
Which one is more likely? That God foreknows what THEY are going to do? Or that God is going to FORCE them to go after other gods, thereby MAKING all this stuff happen?
Mike
Acts 16
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.18 Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
what future could they foresee ? one day,one week,one month
one life time what could make it that the demon can do that do you ever watch a be heave or ants and if you know them well you may also see their future
I DON'T THINK GOD FORESEES US ,UNLESS IT IS WITHIN HIS PLAN ,TO BE IN HIS PLAN IS THE BECOME RIGHTEOUS AND SUBMIT TO HIM ,
IT IS TRUE THAT HE KNOW HIS OWN PLAN ,AND IT IS UP TO US TO BE PART OF IT OR BE AGAINST IT ,IF WE GO AGAINST IT THEN HE WILL WATCH US NOT TO HURT THE ONES HE WANT TO PROTECT ,THIS IS PART OF HIS PLAN ,
And what about the Deuteronomy passage I quoted, Pierre?
Are you saying that God didn't foresee the things the Israelites were going to do, but that He CAUSED them to go after other gods on purpose, just so He could be right?
Are you saying God FORCED all those calamities on the nation He had just rescued, and claimed as His very own?
Mike
Deuteronomy 31
16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.there is a similar scripture from Solomon , can't remember were exactly it is ,I believe it is in one of his payers
PS 14:2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
PS 33:13
The LORD looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
PS 53:2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.this is not foresee/n
Pierre,
Is it your understanding that God knew the Israelites would soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they were about to enter because God had decided to use His power to FORCE them to do so?
YES or NO?
Mike
if I hire you for working and tell this is what I want and if you do not do it you be fired ;
do I foresee the day you get fire
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,07:04) Pierre, Is it your understanding that God knew the Israelites would soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they were about to enter because God had decided to use His power to FORCE them to do so?
YES or NO?
MikeGod does not tempt anyone it is their hearts that has lead them ashtray ,not God
he knew but not for the fact of foreseen it just because he knew the Israelite people stiff necks ,
it says in scriptures that God knows his people why
because they behave differently than the others ,they follow God commandment they stay away from wickedness ,can God not say about those people that they will be saved
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,06:54) And what about the Deuteronomy passage I quoted, Pierre? Are you saying that God didn't foresee the things the Israelites were going to do, but that He CAUSED them to go after other gods on purpose, just so He could be right?
Are you saying God FORCED all those calamities on the nation He had just rescued, and claimed as His very own?
mikeJER 7:31 “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
if God foresees all things why did he not foresee this action???
Mike
what God sees is not foreseen ;
Isa 64:12 After all this, O LORD, will you hold yourself back?
Will you keep silent and punish us beyond measure?Isa 65:1 “I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
Isa 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands
to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
pursuing their own imaginations—
Isa 65:3 a people who continually provoke me
to my very face,
offering sacrifices in gardens
and burning incense on altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 who sit among the graves
and spend their nights keeping secret vigil;
who eat the flesh of pigs,
and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat;
Isa 65:5 who say, ‘Keep away; don’t come near me,
for I am too sacred for you!’
Such people are smoke in my nostrils,Terricca……….God was simply telling then he never ever even thought to cause people to sacrifice their sons and daughters in the fire to him, that is all. It has nothing to do with him foreseeing what Israel would eventually do, He knew they would eventually follow after the God of other nations around them. Because he understood the nature of those people after all he created us all. IMO
peace and love…………………………………………gene
Pierre:
If God has knowledge some event that will happen in the future, and He can tell you that it will happen at a precise moment in time, and it happens at that precise moment in time that is what is meant by “to forsee”.
Please read the book of Daniel for some of the prophecies in that book such as those relative to Messiah coming in chapter 9, and then check out if they happened precisely as God has stated that they would.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2014,01:20) Pierre: If God has knowledge some event that will happen in the future, and He can tell you that it will happen at a precise moment in time, and it happens at that precise moment in time that is what is meant by “to forsee”.
Please read the book of Daniel for some of the prophecies in that book such as those relative to Messiah coming in chapter 9, and then check out if they happened precisely as God has stated that they would.
Love in Christ,
Marty
mARTYok,now we getting some were ,but as you say “foresee” is not the word because it is not used in scriptures,why
well God as a plan and that's the plan that will be fulfilled he knows how,were,when,who,will be part of it ,
prophecy in that way is not for God a foreseen action ,because he knows his plans ;his plan that not many if anyone knows them ,this why it says in revelation ,;
Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ,which God gave him to show his servants
you see it comes from God because he knows he does not foresee or as foreknowledge , men do
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2014,21:40) Terricca……….God was simply telling then he never ever even thought to cause people to sacrifice their sons and daughters in the fire to him, that is all. It has nothing to do with him foreseeing what Israel would eventually do, He knew they would eventually follow after the God of other nations around them. Because he understood the nature of those people after all he created us all. IMO peace and love…………………………………………gene
gGod is not a man
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2014,19:05) Mike if I hire you for working and tell this is what I want and if you do not do it you be fired ;
do I foresee the day you get fire
Do you see that big word “IF”, Pierre?Read the Deuteronomy passage again, and show me the word “IF”.
God did not say, “IF” you guys do this, then I'm going to do that.
He said the people WILL soon start doing this, and when they do, I'm going to do that.
See the difference? God already knew they WOULD mess up. If you hire me, you have no idea whether or not I'll ever mess up. As far as you know, I could turn out the be the best employee anyone has ever seen, and you could end up turning the entire company over to me.
So YOU can't FORESEE that I WILL mess up. On the other hand, God DID foresee that the Israelites WOULD mess up, and He already knew ahead of time exactly HOW they were going to mess up.
He even knew ahead of time how He was going to respond to them when they did mess up.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,16:35) God as a plan and that's the plan that will be fulfilled he knows how,were,when,who,will be part of it ,
How does God know those things ahead of time, Pierre?Hi Pierre:
Following is a dictionary definition of the word for-see, and have you heard of a synonym?
Quote fore·see [fawr-see, fohr-] Show IPA verb (used with object), fore·saw, fore·seen, fore·see·ing.
1.
to have prescience of; to know in advance; foreknow.
2.
to see beforehand.
verb (used without object), fore·saw, fore·seen, fore·see·ing.
3.
to exercise foresight.
Is God able to do what the dictionary definition states?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2014,04:49) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2014,19:05) Mike if I hire you for working and tell this is what I want and if you do not do it you be fired ;
do I foresee the day you get fire
Do you see that big word “IF”, Pierre?Read the Deuteronomy passage again, and show me the word “IF”.
God did not say, “IF” you guys do this, then I'm going to do that.
He said the people WILL soon start doing this, and when they do, I'm going to do that.
See the difference? God already knew they WOULD mess up. If you hire me, you have no idea whether or not I'll ever mess up. As far as you know, I could turn out the be the best employee anyone has ever seen, and you could end up turning the entire company over to me.
So YOU can't FORESEE that I WILL mess up. On the other hand, God DID foresee that the Israelites WOULD mess up, and He already knew ahead of time exactly HOW they were going to mess up.
He even knew ahead of time how He was going to respond to them when they did mess up.
Mikei am retired ;so i should have said when i use to be hiring
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2014,04:52) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2014,16:35) God as a plan and that's the plan that will be fulfilled he knows how,were,when,who,will be part of it ,
How does God know those things ahead of time, Pierre?
Mikeit because he is the one that created all things ,and the only thing that Adam and Satan did is putting a dent in his plan for humanity (men) and that was worked out right at that time ,some of the things ad to dealt with later like the flood for the corruption was so vast that it as to be dealt with then ,but the time was stated to Noah ,but the plan of God did not change sins the beginning ,
so he knows all things according to his plan ,any other thing that comes up because the freedom of choice this cannot and will not change the plan of God ,he deals with it as it appears ,
of cause if certain thing he sees that will interfere with his plan he also will deal with it as required ,
after all he as 2000000 angels
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