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Mike………..I suppose you believe, the Greek's did not have a word for “ALIVE”, also in you rendition of the languages, but the fact is they do, and If Jesus was meaning he was ALIVE before Abraham Existed, he would have “OBVIOUSLY” used it. But that is not the case there now is it? So that leaves us to ponder what Jesus really meant by His statement when he could have very, very, clearly and accurately have said it , if that was what he meant to say. Then none of us would have any question over those scriptures. So, if Jesus was meaning He preexisted as a Sentinel Being “BEFORE” Abraham, He would have used the words to clearly establish that fact, because those words are and “WERE” clearly available.
Haven't you yet noticed , that in nearly all cases of your explanations, of your Preexistence doctrines, you have to do it the same way, force the text to say, what could be said very easily and clearly with the available Greek Words that did exist for use. That would leave no room of any error or misunderstanding. Many subjects are very clearly said, So why do you Trinitarians and Preexistences have to use only obscure scriptures that can be taken many way to push your points.
Like for instance if John meant Jesus “was” the word He was writing about in John 1:1, he could have just written Jesus there, instead of the word ,word. Again, why all the Mystery Means and word play or replacements to make a text say what it is not LITERALLY or “SPECIFICALLY” saying Mike?
You go through a long explanation to try to get you point across about word play. but when the language, does have word ,that would “CLEARLY” express it intended means, then that is another question right. The Greek language does have clear words, that would support Jesus saying I was “ALIVE” Before Abraham was.if that is what he meant to say, But ironically they were not uses there , why is that Mike?, is it because what you are saying, was not what was the intent of the text. Your using the language as a cover, and saying, Jesus and John and Paul simply were unable to “CLEARLY” say what thy meant to say right? Tell us why those clear words that were available were not used Mike , why must you guys, have to always add words to the text to force the text meanings? Also the text that goes completely against you teaching, you guys avoid like the plague why is the Mike?.
Haven't you ever thought about that Mike? It's one thing to take a clearly written scripture and use it a Proof text, but it is quite another to force the text to say what it does not “SPECIFICALLY” Say. You can't build a Doctrine with Speculations and assumed means especially if it comes from a Trinitarian Preexistence stand point. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,12:16) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:45) Hi Mike: The context has to do with the Jews accusing him of saying that he had seen Abraham, and he did not say that.
Marty,The Jews implied it was impossible for Jesus to have ever seen Abraham, since he wasn't even 50 years old yet.
And his response to them was that he had been in existence before Abraham ever came into existence.
Marty, do you have any comments at all on my two posts from yesterday? Is there any of the information I posted that you can refute? If not, I'll assume you accept every bit of both posts as the truth of the matter.
Mike:Whether they implied what, they (the jews) said or whether they said it, he did not say that had seen Abraham, and so, if that is what he meant by his statement, “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad”, of course it was would be impossible, but he did not say that, did he?
And what he said is, “before Abraham was “I exist”. He existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning, foreordained to be born into this world at a specific point in time, that was God's plan from the foundation of the world.
God reconciled all things unto Himself, whether in heaven or on earth, through him, those who are saved through their salvation, and those who are lost through the day of judgement to be judged according to their works, and punished according to the life that they lived, and destroyed forever.I believe that I have answered your posts by what I have posted, but if you want some specific points that you feel that I have not answered then re-post.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 18 2014,02:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,12:16) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:45) Hi Mike: The context has to do with the Jews accusing him of saying that he had seen Abraham, and he did not say that.
Marty,The Jews implied it was impossible for Jesus to have ever seen Abraham, since he wasn't even 50 years old yet.
And his response to them was that he had been in existence before Abraham ever came into existence.
Marty, do you have any comments at all on my two posts from yesterday? Is there any of the information I posted that you can refute? If not, I'll assume you accept every bit of both posts as the truth of the matter.
Mike:Whether they implied what, they (the jews) said or whether they said it, he did not say that had seen Abraham, and so, if that is what he meant by his statement, “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad”, of course it was would be impossible, but he did not say that, did he?
And what he said is, “before Abraham was “I exist”. He existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning, foreordained to be born into this world at a specific point in time, that was God's plan from the foundation of the world.
God reconciled all things unto Himself, whether in heaven or on earth, through him, those who are saved through their salvation, and those who are lost through the day of judgement to be judged according to their works, and punished according to the life that they lived, and destroyed forever.I believe that I have answered your posts by what I have posted, but if you want some specific points that you feel that I have not answered then re-post.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Gene/Marty.You said: why did Jesus not say it clearly,that he was before Abraham:
1.Why would Jesus speak in parables?
Why not clear and straight? So the wicked can not
understand.
2.Why are the prophesies all in symbols? not straight and
clear? So the wicked can not understand.
The Word/Jesus, was there in the days of abraham and He
also met Abraham.Abraham met with Him.
3.He was THE FIRST KING of
peace/salem,righteousness,and high priest.(HE IS THE
PRE-EMINENCE OF ALL THINGS).col.1
4.THE WORD/JESUS: spoke to Moses; It was HIM all along,
Because He is the Word of God.
God always speaks through His Word.
5.No man has heard God's voice.
6. He will come back as THE WORD OF GOD.wakeup.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2014,08:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,12:13) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 16 2014,09:40)
Do YOU suppose that you were created through your great, great grandson? YES or NO?And if “NO”, why not?
Hi Mike:What does that have to do with the fact that God knew that a specific time He would have a Son through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself?
Please answer the question honestly and directly, Marty. Thanks.
Hi Mike:A stupid question doesn't deserve an answer.
Love in Christ,
Marty
My answer to that question would be no.I can only assume your answer is the same.
But why not just say so?
Hi Wakup:
Quote
Mat 11:25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes
Quote
Hbr 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
This states that God spoke to the Fathers by the prophets in many ways in times past, and He has spoken to humanity through His Son. This does not say anything about “the Word spoke”, and this scripture states 'by whom(Jesus, His Son) also He(God) made the worlds.
Quote The Greek In the “by” whom is “dia” or through in English. Lexicon :: Strong's G1223 – dia
διά
Transliteration
dia
Pronunciation
dē-ä' (Key)
Part of Speech
preposition
Root Word (Etymology)
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 2:65,149
Outline of Biblical Usage
I.through
A.of place
i.with
ii.in
B.of time
i.throughout
ii.during
C.of means
i.by
ii.by the means ofII.through
A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
i.by reason of
ii.on account of
iii.because of for this reason
iv.therefore
v.on this account
I believe that the “dia” “through” means that “Jesus is the “ground reason that God made the worlds” because it is through him that God planned to reconcile all of humanity to Himself, and this scripture states that “he is God's Heir”.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty
Quote I believe that the “dia” “through” means that “Jesus is the “ground reason that God made the worlds” because it is through him that God planned to reconcile all of humanity to Himself, and this scripture states that “he is God's Heir”. this would mean that God as plan that men must fall BEFORE HE EVEN CREATED THEM ,THIS ONLY THINKING ABOUT GIVE ME THE CHILLS ,A GOD THAT THINKS IN A EVIL WAY ,AND THEN GOES ON TELLING HE HIS LOVE
,THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME ANY WAY,
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 18 2014,12:01) Hi Wakup: Quote
Mat 11:25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes
Quote
Hbr 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
This God spoke to the Fathers by the prophets in many ways in times past, and He has spoken to humanity through His Son. This does not say anything about “the Word spoke”, and this scripture states 'by whom(Jesus, His Son) also He(God) made the worlds.
Quote The Greek In the “by” whom is “dia” or through in English. Lexicon :: Strong's G1223 – dia
διά
Transliteration
dia
Pronunciation
dē-ä' (Key)
Part of Speech
preposition
Root Word (Etymology)
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 2:65,149
Outline of Biblical Usage
I.through
A.of place
i.with
ii.in
B.of time
i.throughout
ii.during
C.of means
i.by
ii.by the means ofII.through
A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
i.by reason of
ii.on account of
iii.because of for this reason
iv.therefore
v.on this account
I believe that the “dia” “through” means that “Jesus is the “ground reason that God made the worlds” because it is through him that God planned to reconcile all of humanity to Himself, and this scripture states that “he is God's Heir”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.It's not working.
The Word/Jesus is the first and the last.(first in everything).
He created man; Let *US* make man in *OUR* image.
His image and God's image.
He spoke to Adam,and He spoke to the prophets.
And He spoke to the apostles.
Now is he speaking to US through the Holy Bible.
Jesus is that bread that came *DOWN* from heaven.
He did not started on earth.
I proceeded *OUT* from the Father.
I came *FORTH* from the Father.
I go *BACK* to the Father.
He had glory with God before the world was.
He *ALREADY EXISTED* before the world was.
He was not HID some where; as you say.Unto us a child is born and his name is everlasting Father
Mighty God,Prince of peace.
He is the living Word of God since the beginning of creation.
Since God spoke out.He is the FIRST king of salem.
He was FIRST in jerusalem/mt. Moriah then.
He is the FIRST king of peace.
He is the FIRST high priest. None before him.
He is coming back to take back what belongs to Him.
Not what belongs to someone else.
Try again.wakeup.
Hi wakeup:
You say, that it is not working, and so, I don't know what else to say, if the scriptures can't convince you, I am wasting my time discussing this with you. It is not my word or my opinion that matters, but what the scriptures state.
Teach what you like, both you and I are responsible to God for what we teach.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 18 2014,02:31) Whether they implied what, they (the jews) said or whether they said it, he did not say that had seen Abraham, and so, if that is what he meant by his statement, “Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad”, of course it was would be impossible, but he did not say that, did he? And what he said is, “before Abraham was “I exist”. He existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning, foreordained to be born into this world at a specific point in time, that was God's plan from the foundation of the world.
God reconciled all things unto Himself, whether in heaven or on earth, through him, those who are saved through their salvation, and those who are lost through the day of judgement to be judged according to their works, and punished according to the life that they lived, and destroyed forever.I believe that I have answered your posts by what I have posted, but if you want some specific points that you feel that I have not answered then re-post.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty ………You have put it Correctly, I believe it that way also brother.peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Wakeup………What your doing is neglecting all the other scriptures that show it differently, you've narrowed you view to only as few scriptures and then even force the text to say what they do not really mean, like Mike and T8 and Terricca do and most all Trinitarians and Preexistence's do. . You need to steep back and consider “ALL” scriptures to get a true picture. Because, it is the SUM of SCRIPTURES that is TRUTH> Not just small parts that came be taken in many ways. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2014,12:32) Marty Quote I believe that the “dia” “through” means that “Jesus is the “ground reason that God made the worlds” because it is through him that God planned to reconcile all of humanity to Himself, and this scripture states that “he is God's Heir”. this would mean that God as plan that men must fall BEFORE HE EVEN CREATED THEM ,THIS ONLY THINKING ABOUT GIVE ME THE CHILLS ,A GOD THAT THINKS IN A EVIL WAY ,AND THEN GOES ON TELLING HE HIS LOVE
,THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME ANY WAY,
No, Pierre, He did not plan it that way, but He has forseen that Adam and Eve would sin, and that all men born of the sperm of men would sin also. He gave Adam and Eve and us a “free will”, and He gave Adam the commandment “not to eat of tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he told them the consequences of disobeying Him. To say He planned it that way, would be to say that God is a partaker of their sin. They disobeyed him.And so, the scriptures state:
Quote
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
What God did plan is to send His Son into the world at a specific point in time to reconcile the world unto Himself, and in His wisdom, he allowed this to happen, so that salvation would not be on the basis of “good works” otherwise we would go around heaven boasting about “how good we were and that we earned our salvation”, and so, all of having sinned can be freely forgiven if we come to God through His provision, that is His Son, and although when we are born again, we are expected to obey His Word, we still make mistakes, as He conforms us to the image of His Son. And He does not force anyone to come to Him and serve Him, it has to be a decision that each individual has to make if they choose to do so. He does not want anyone to serve Him if they do not want to serve Him. This also is the wisdom of God.
And so, this is the wisdom of God, that salvation would be by “faith”, believing what He has done for us through His Son, and that it might be “by grace”, that is unmerited, meaning that we did not earn it through our “good works”.
Salvation is “a gift to us from God”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 19 2014,01:51) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2014,12:32) Marty Quote I believe that the “dia” “through” means that “Jesus is the “ground reason that God made the worlds” because it is through him that God planned to reconcile all of humanity to Himself, and this scripture states that “he is God's Heir”. this would mean that God as plan that men must fall BEFORE HE EVEN CREATED THEM ,THIS ONLY THINKING ABOUT GIVE ME THE CHILLS ,A GOD THAT THINKS IN A EVIL WAY ,AND THEN GOES ON TELLING HE HIS LOVE
,THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME ANY WAY,
No, Pierre, He did not plan it that way, but He has forseen that Adam and Eve would sin, and that all men born of the sperm of men would sin also. He gave Adam and Eve and us a “free will”, and He gave Adam the commandment “not to eat of tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he told them the consequences of disobeying Him. To say He planned it that way, would be to say that God is a partaker of their sin. They disobeyed him.And so, the scriptures state:
Quote
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
What God did plan is to send His Son into the world at a specific point in time to reconcile the world unto Himself, and in His wisdom, he allowed this to happen, so that salvation would not be on the basis of “good works” otherwise we would go around heaven boasting about “how good we were and that we earned our salvation”, and so, all of having sinned can be freely forgiven if we come to God through His provision, that is His Son, and although when we are born again, we are expected to obey His Word, we still make mistakes, as He conforms us to the image of His Son. And He does not force anyone to come to Him and serve Him, it has to be a decision that each individual has to make if they choose to do so. He does not want anyone to serve Him if they do not want to serve Him. This also is the wisdom of God.
And so, this is the wisdom of God, that salvation would be by “faith”, believing what He has done for us through His Son, and that it might be “by grace”, that is unmerited, meaning that we did not earn it through our “good works”.
Salvation is “a gift to us from God”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyQuote Salvation is “a gift to us from God”. but then it is not plan ,it is true that after Adam and Eve sinned God plan to send his son that was beside him at that time ,to become into the flesh as scriptures and Christ himself said that he came down from the father and so return to the father ,
so prior to sin God did not plan anything because their was nothing to plan for ,
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2014,09:31) And what he said is, “before Abraham was “I exist”. He existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning, foreordained to be born into this world….
Marty,I am truly happy to I know that you understand what those words mean in John 8:58. Jesus was indeed saying, “I exist”.
And I'm sure you can understand that, in English, we wouldn't say, “I exist” – in the present tense form – in combination with the past tense, “Before Abraham EXISTED”. So likely you will be able to understand that we must integrate the two tenses of that statement into one tense – so that it makes sense to us in English.
We can't sensibly integrate, “Before Abraham EXISTED” into the present tense, because “Before Abraham EXISTS, I EXIST” makes no sense to us in English.
We must therefore integrate the present tense, “I Exist” to the past tense, “I have EXISTED”.
And that leaves us with a sensible English translation of, “Before Abraham EXISTED, I have EXISTED”.
At this point, all that is left for us to do is try to figure out why you would understand those words as an “existence in the heart of the Father”, as opposed to a literal existence. Is that your normal understanding of the words,”I existed”?
For example, if I said, “Abraham Lincoln existed in the 1840s”, would you naturally assume that I meant he existed “in the heart of the Father”? Or would you understand it as a literal existence? I assume the latter.
So why then would you not assume the latter in the case of Jesus?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,18:33) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2014,08:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,12:13) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 16 2014,09:40)
Do YOU suppose that you were created through your great, great grandson? YES or NO?And if “NO”, why not?
Hi Mike:What does that have to do with the fact that God knew that a specific time He would have a Son through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself?
Please answer the question honestly and directly, Marty. Thanks.
Hi Mike:A stupid question doesn't deserve an answer.
Love in Christ,
Marty
My answer to that question would be no.I can only assume your answer is the same.
But why not just say so?
Marty,WHY would nobody sensibly say that you were created through your great great grandchild?
Because you KNOW it would be LUDICROUS to say someone or something was created THROUGH an entity that didn't yet exist.
You know this, and that is why refuse to answer my “stupid question”.
So tell me, why do you think it's NOT ludicrous to believe all things were created through Jesus when he didn't yet exist?
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2014,01:59) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 19 2014,01:51) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2014,12:32) Marty Quote I believe that the “dia” “through” means that “Jesus is the “ground reason that God made the worlds” because it is through him that God planned to reconcile all of humanity to Himself, and this scripture states that “he is God's Heir”. this would mean that God as plan that men must fall BEFORE HE EVEN CREATED THEM ,THIS ONLY THINKING ABOUT GIVE ME THE CHILLS ,A GOD THAT THINKS IN A EVIL WAY ,AND THEN GOES ON TELLING HE HIS LOVE
,THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME ANY WAY,
No, Pierre, He did not plan it that way, but He has forseen that Adam and Eve would sin, and that all men born of the sperm of men would sin also. He gave Adam and Eve and us a “free will”, and He gave Adam the commandment “not to eat of tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he told them the consequences of disobeying Him. To say He planned it that way, would be to say that God is a partaker of their sin. They disobeyed him.And so, the scriptures state:
Quote
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
What God did plan is to send His Son into the world at a specific point in time to reconcile the world unto Himself, and in His wisdom, he allowed this to happen, so that salvation would not be on the basis of “good works” otherwise we would go around heaven boasting about “how good we were and that we earned our salvation”, and so, all of having sinned can be freely forgiven if we come to God through His provision, that is His Son, and although when we are born again, we are expected to obey His Word, we still make mistakes, as He conforms us to the image of His Son. And He does not force anyone to come to Him and serve Him, it has to be a decision that each individual has to make if they choose to do so. He does not want anyone to serve Him if they do not want to serve Him. This also is the wisdom of God.
And so, this is the wisdom of God, that salvation would be by “faith”, believing what He has done for us through His Son, and that it might be “by grace”, that is unmerited, meaning that we did not earn it through our “good works”.
Salvation is “a gift to us from God”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyQuote Salvation is “a gift to us from God”. but then it is not plan ,it is true that after Adam and Eve sinned God plan to send his son that was beside him at that time ,to become into the flesh as scriptures and Christ himself said that he came down from the father and so return to the father ,
so prior to sin God did not plan anything because their was nothing to plan for ,
MARTYQuote but He has forseen that Adam and Eve would sin, plan ahead or foreseen are those not similar words that says the same thing
Terricca……..Why do you “LIMIT” Gods power and knowledge by saying he did not know man would fall. God know all along we would “EXPERIENCE” GOOD “AND” EVIL or why even put that option before Mentally blinded people, who eyes were closed to it, in the first place. “When”, did God say look the man has become as “WE” ARE , TO “KNOW” (experience) GOOD AND EVIL, was it before or after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it was after they took from it, right? That experience moved mankind into a higher level of understanding,
God created that potential in man from the time he created them and after experiencing Good and Evil Man must learn how to Master sin and use his knowledge as God does. This gives wisdom to us all through the experience of them both otherwise we still would have been Like Adam and Eve was before they came to that understanding and did eat of the fruit of Good and evil. That is why that tree was placed there in the first place, and the serpent was allowed to tempt them. God used him to get him, to influence them to move and do what they did, to open their eyes to know (come to understand first hand) GOOD and EVIL , but by that “INFLUENCED” choice they would have to bear the results of that influenced choice, it is part of the learning process of experiencing good and evil. It is as if we are being forged by God to become more like him through these experiences we go through, and he uses Satan to accomplish that goal. IMO
And if you believe the scriptures that says God KNOW'S THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, if you truly believe that, then you would know, God The Father, knew all along Man would do what in fact he did do, and GOD the Father had a Plan, to recover mankind in place before he ever created that propensity in man, in the first place. You limit God by not understanding his plan he had all along, because You want to glorify yourself by saying it is your So-called “FREE” WILL choice, to chose his own salvation, and by this you are glorifying yourself as the author of you salvation and thereby, not giving God the Credit.
But fact, is no man is saved by his or her “FREE” WILL Choices, We are saved by GOD THE FATHER'S WILL, and “HIS” Choice, not ours, Why, so God can establish the bases for our SALVATION and LIFE on HIS “GRACE”. Just as it says, for we are saved by GRACE, and that not of ourselves, it is a GIFT of GOD. now if it is by GRACE (unmerited pardon), then it is not our So-called “FREEWILL” choices, that saved us. Just as Jesus said to his disciples you did not chose me, It was God the Father who chose to bring them to Christ in the first place. Did not Jesus say, “NO” man “CAN” come unto Me unless the Father “DRAW” him. So much for mans “FREE WILL” SALVATION CHOICES. WHY, So “NO” man can “BOAST” about his or her salvation. Why?, because, It is by “GRACE” we are saved,and in that way , “NO” man can “BOAST” it's just that simple, God the Father does not want a bunch of so-called, “FREE WILLERS” boasting about how they saved themselves by there own so-called “freewill” choices in his face. Therefore it is by “GRACE” (unmerited pardon) we are saved by. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2014,17:24) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2014,01:59) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 19 2014,01:51) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 18 2014,12:32) Marty Quote I believe that the “dia” “through” means that “Jesus is the “ground reason that God made the worlds” because it is through him that God planned to reconcile all of humanity to Himself, and this scripture states that “he is God's Heir”. this would mean that God as plan that men must fall BEFORE HE EVEN CREATED THEM ,THIS ONLY THINKING ABOUT GIVE ME THE CHILLS ,A GOD THAT THINKS IN A EVIL WAY ,AND THEN GOES ON TELLING HE HIS LOVE
,THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME ANY WAY,
No, Pierre, He did not plan it that way, but He has forseen that Adam and Eve would sin, and that all men born of the sperm of men would sin also. He gave Adam and Eve and us a “free will”, and He gave Adam the commandment “not to eat of tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he told them the consequences of disobeying Him. To say He planned it that way, would be to say that God is a partaker of their sin. They disobeyed him.And so, the scriptures state:
Quote
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
What God did plan is to send His Son into the world at a specific point in time to reconcile the world unto Himself, and in His wisdom, he allowed this to happen, so that salvation would not be on the basis of “good works” otherwise we would go around heaven boasting about “how good we were and that we earned our salvation”, and so, all of having sinned can be freely forgiven if we come to God through His provision, that is His Son, and although when we are born again, we are expected to obey His Word, we still make mistakes, as He conforms us to the image of His Son. And He does not force anyone to come to Him and serve Him, it has to be a decision that each individual has to make if they choose to do so. He does not want anyone to serve Him if they do not want to serve Him. This also is the wisdom of God.
And so, this is the wisdom of God, that salvation would be by “faith”, believing what He has done for us through His Son, and that it might be “by grace”, that is unmerited, meaning that we did not earn it through our “good works”.
Salvation is “a gift to us from God”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyQuote Salvation is “a gift to us from God”. but then it is not plan ,it is true that after Adam and Eve sinned God plan to send his son that was beside him at that time ,to become into the flesh as scriptures and Christ himself said that he came down from the father and so return to the father ,
so prior to sin God did not plan anything because their was nothing to plan for ,
MARTYQuote but He has forseen that Adam and Eve would sin, plan ahead or foreseen are those not similar words that says the same thing
No, they are not the same, did you look up the definition of the words?fore·see [fawr-see, fohr-] Show IPA
verb (used with object), fore·saw, fore·seen, fore·see·ing.
1.
to have prescience of; to know in advance; foreknow.
2.
to see beforehand.
And this is a plan:
Answer:
In short, a plan, in project management, is the intended future course of action. It is usually developed and owned by the Project Manager.
God did not plan for Adam and Eve to disobey Him, he knew they would, and He knew that all men born of the sperm of man would also sin, but since He knew that this would happen, He had a solution, a future course of action, which was to offer the sacrifice, the lamb of God, His Only Begotten Son, so that anyone who wants to be forgiven can come to Him with a repentant heart, and freely be forgiven.
The scripture states:
Quote
Eph 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2014,07:19) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2014,09:31) And what he said is, “before Abraham was “I exist”. He existed in the heart of the Father from the beginning, foreordained to be born into this world….
Marty,I am truly happy to I know that you understand what those words mean in John 8:58. Jesus was indeed saying, “I exist”.
And I'm sure you can understand that, in English, we wouldn't say, “I exist” – in the present tense form – in combination with the past tense, “Before Abraham EXISTED”. So likely you will be able to understand that we must integrate the two tenses of that statement into one tense – so that it makes sense to us in English.
We can't sensibly integrate, “Before Abraham EXISTED” into the present tense, because “Before Abraham EXISTS, I EXIST” makes no sense to us in English.
We must therefore integrate the present tense, “I Exist” to the past tense, “I have EXISTED”.
And that leaves us with a sensible English translation of, “Before Abraham EXISTED, I have EXISTED”.
At this point, all that is left for us to do is try to figure out why you would understand those words as an “existence in the heart of the Father”, as opposed to a literal existence. Is that your normal understanding of the words,”I existed”?
For example, if I said, “Abraham Lincoln existed in the 1840s”, would you naturally assume that I meant he existed “in the heart of the Father”? Or would you understand it as a literal existence? I assume the latter.
So why then would you not assume the latter in the case of Jesus?
Hi Mike:Because he was speaking of himself as a person at that particular point in time, and he did exist in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world, before anything was created, he was the solution that God planned to reconcile the world unto Himself.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty……… Eph 1:11…> In whom also we have obtained and inheritance, being “predestined” according to the purpose of him who WORKS “ALL” THINGS, after the council of his “OWN” WILL
Amen to that brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2014,07:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,18:33) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 17 2014,08:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 17 2014,12:13) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 16 2014,17:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 16 2014,09:40)
Do YOU suppose that you were created through your great, great grandson? YES or NO?And if “NO”, why not?
Hi Mike:What does that have to do with the fact that God knew that a specific time He would have a Son through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself?
Please answer the question honestly and directly, Marty. Thanks.
Hi Mike:A stupid question doesn't deserve an answer.
Love in Christ,
Marty
My answer to that question would be no.I can only assume your answer is the same.
But why not just say so?
Marty,WHY would nobody sensibly say that you were created through your great great grandchild?
Because you KNOW it would be LUDICROUS to say someone or something was created THROUGH an entity that didn't yet exist.
You know this, and that is why refuse to answer my “stupid question”.
So tell me, why do you think it's NOT ludicrous to believe all things were created through Jesus when he didn't yet exist?
Yes, Mike, I said it was a stupid question, and I have already answered your question relative to GOD CREATING ALL THINGS THROUGH JESUS.Love in Christ,
Marty
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