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Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2013,19:39) That he is not the creator is precisely my point.
Neither I nor Pierre have ever claimed that Jesus created a single thing, Marty.So why are you arguing against a point we've never made in the first place?
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 23 2013,04:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2013,22:48) Terricca…………If you don't understand that the word GOD is a relationship, then it doesn't matter what language you use you still have no idea what you are talking about> IMO, Now please let Mike answer my post and butt out please. All you do is just throw out flack to divert and confuse the Posts, we are discussing. It seem to be above you comprehension level at this time. IMO peace and love…………………………………gene
god is a tittle ;so is king,lord,master,and president ,,and so on ,,,,,,,father is a relationship like mother,brother, sister ,and so on,,,,
opinions of yours are very disturbing ,because they let me know that you relly do not understand the scriptures ,but you do try hard to understand men's theories
Terricca……..Does everything simply fly over your head, No one is saying there is not other Gods, Kings , Magistrates etc, to “OTHER” people. What am saying is “ARE” those Gods, lords, Kings magistrates [/B] “MINE” NO, because they are not “MINE” So, I like Paul say there are lords and God's many , “BUT” UNTO” “US” (true believers) there is BUT, “ONE” GOD. Can you get that?The term God, or even King , or lord, can only apply to peoples relationship with them, (as “MY lord or YOUR lord or THERE lord, so it is with a King or a GOD> But what you people try to do is change the Meaning of the Word God, itself, by saying A “little god” is different then a “BIG GOD”, that is like saying a BIG KING, is different then a little king. NO a KING is a KING and a GOD is a GOD no matter where he or it is. The meaning of the word themselves don't change because you tag a upper case or lower case lettering to them. What ever you apply the word to must meet the requirement of the meaning of that word being used.
You simply have no idea of what you are talking about if you can not understand the true meaning of the word God, and how it applies to a person in a relational manor. There are NO Big or little God or god's, The writers changed the Case lettering from the original, to suit their need to make Jesus a little God and God the father a big God, as in your case , But the fact is Jesus is no God big or little at all, at least to any (true believer). He is our lord not our God, he has a God and it is the same God as us (true believers) have.
We (true believers) believe this way, we know that there is no idol in the world and that there is “NO” God but “ONE” That is to Us (true believers) “O” and by the way even “Ha-Satan” believe that also, but of course he wants you to believe there are many Gods, and it seems you do believe him. IMO
peace and lvoe……………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,02:41) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2013,19:39) That he is not the creator is precisely my point.
Neither I nor Pierre have ever claimed that Jesus created a single thing, Marty.So why are you arguing against a point we've never made in the first place?
Mike……..Well then, what exactly did Jesus do in the creative process, that you now claim he had nothing to do with , why do you say God did it all through Him then, if he as you say, had nothing to do with it.God did all the miracles in Egypt , but Moses was his instrument and did have something to do with it and scripture shown His involvement, So we all accept Him as God's servant , but where is any scripture showing any activity of Jesus in the creation process?.
WE all accept Jesus as the Builder of the House of God, and we all have “evidence” that attest to that “FACT”, and His activity in doing and bringing it about, “the whole New Testament is a testament to that fact, But you have “NONE” not one of any activity in the creation process of God before his berth on this earth, only “SPECULATIONS” , but we desire FACTS not “speculations”.
Fact is there is “NONE”, not even one, we have only yours and other Preexistence's and Trinitarians and Gnostic's words and “OPINIONS” to go by right? So, Why should you people preach something as Fact, when there is not even one scripture, that show any activity of Jesus in any Past Life what so ever.
peace and love …………………………gene
GENE
Quote Terricca……..Does everything simply fly over your head, No one is saying there is not other Gods, Kings , Magistrates etc, to “OTHER” people. What am saying is “ARE” those Gods, lords, Kings magistrates [/B] “MINE” NO, because they are not “MINE” So, I like Paul say there are lords and God's many , “BUT” UNTO” “US” (true believers) there is BUT, “ONE” GOD. Can you get that? are you living on an island and are the only person living there
Mike……..Would you erase all the posts between me an Terricca, here and get back to the Last post i posted to you, that all this guy does is disrupts our discussions to through it of track. I want to continue where i last dialogue with you and T8.
peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,02:41) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2013,19:39) That he is not the creator is precisely my point.
Neither I nor Pierre have ever claimed that Jesus created a single thing, Marty.So why are you arguing against a point we've never made in the first place?
Hi Mike:You and Pierre teach that Jesus pre-existed and that when the scriptures state that all things were created through him, it means that it was Jesus that he was using the process of creating every thing.
But God states that he alone created every thing by himself according to the scriptures posted below, and so, how do you dispute what God has stated. I know that God created all things through Jesus, but it means that he was “he was the ground reason that he created every thing”. It is through him that his plan for this world and for humanity is fulfilled, and he will inherit all things and we are joint heirs with him.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 27 2013,22:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,02:41) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2013,19:39) That he is not the creator is precisely my point.
Neither I nor Pierre have ever claimed that Jesus created a single thing, Marty.So why are you arguing against a point we've never made in the first place?
Hi Mike:You and Pierre teach that Jesus pre-existed and that when the scriptures state that all things were created through him, it means that it was Jesus that he was using the process of creating every thing.
But God states that he alone created every thing by himself according to the scriptures posted below, and so, how do you dispute what God has stated. I know that God created all things through Jesus, but it means that he was “he was the ground reason that he created every thing”. It is through him that his plan for this world and for humanity is fulfilled, and he will inherit all things and we are joint heirs with him.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyGod is the architect of creation ,who he uses to do what seems clear ;it is his son THE WORD ,the first of his creation that he uses to go through,
this does not by any means take away God's claim of not being the architect of his own creation ,Col 1;15-21
but what you seem to say is that God was all alone and created all things by himself ,then how long did God stay alone
after he start to create Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2013,03:44) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 27 2013,22:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,02:41) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 23 2013,19:39) That he is not the creator is precisely my point.
Neither I nor Pierre have ever claimed that Jesus created a single thing, Marty.So why are you arguing against a point we've never made in the first place?
Hi Mike:You and Pierre teach that Jesus pre-existed and that when the scriptures state that all things were created through him, it means that it was Jesus that he was using the process of creating every thing.
But God states that he alone created every thing by himself according to the scriptures posted below, and so, how do you dispute what God has stated. I know that God created all things through Jesus, but it means that he was “he was the ground reason that he created every thing”. It is through him that his plan for this world and for humanity is fulfilled, and he will inherit all things and we are joint heirs with him.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyGod is the architect of creation ,who he uses to do what seems clear ;it is his son THE WORD ,the first of his creation that he uses to go through,
this does not by any means take away God's claim of not being the architect of his own creation ,Col 1;15-21
but what you seem to say is that God was all alone and created all things by himself ,then how long did God stay alone
after he start to create
Hi Pierre:I did not say that he was alone. The scripture states that “he by himself created all things”. And so, if the scripture states it, that should settle it, otherwise, you would be adding your opinion to the scripture.
Yes, God created everything by His Word, the Logos, which is “the sayings of God” that embody his plan for the worlds and for humanity”.
The Word pertains to Jesus because it is through him that God's plan would be fulfilled, but no, he is not “the Word”.
God spoke through him, and he obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross, but the Word of God did not originate from him. It came from God through him.The scripture states that “his name is called the Word of God”, but it does not say “he is the Word of God”. There is a difference.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 25 2013,10:32) Mike……..Well then, what exactly did Jesus do in the creative process….
The scriptures are silent on exactly what role Jesus played, Gene. Just as the scriptures are silent on what exactly the “US” did when God said, “Let US make man in OUR image”. All we know from scripture is that after saying, “Let US create man”, God is the one who actually created man.So I can't answer your question, because the information isn't given to us. We can only go by what the scriptures say. And the scriptures say, at least three times, that all things were created through Jesus.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 27 2013,10:24) Mike……..Would you erase all the posts between me an Terricca, here and get back to the Last post i posted to you, that all this guy does is disrupts our discussions to through it of track. I want to continue where i last dialogue with you and T8. peace and love……………………….gene
I believe I've addressed three of your posts, Gene. I'm current waiting for YOUR responses to my posts.Quote (942767 @ Dec. 27 2013,10:35) Hi Mike: You and Pierre teach that Jesus pre-existed and that when the scriptures state that all things were created through him, it means that it was Jesus that he was using the process of creating every thing.
But God states that he alone created every thing by himself according to the scriptures posted below, and so, how do you dispute what God has stated.
I believe that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, created me. But I'm also aware that God did that THROUGH many other vessels, such as Adam, Eve, Noah, my grandparents, my parents, etc.The fact that God created me THROUGH these other vessels doesn't change the fact that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, is the only one who created me.
Remember the words of Tertullian: He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.
Notice that the one THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is NOT the creator. The creator is still the ONLY one who actually created the thing.
So do you understand that God creating all things THROUGH Jesus does NOT contradict the scriptures you thought it contradicted?
Mike ……..Every thing God created something Though we know the activity involved by the thing used , But you admit there is NO proven activity known, that Jesus had anything to do with the creation process on earth, so you at best are speculating Mike.
I as well as Marty have shown you scriptures where God himself said He “ALONE” and “BY HIMSELF” created everything on this earth. We can not neglect those scriptures. They are emphatic and conclusive scriptures.
So being scriptures say there are “SEVEN SPIRITS, OF GOD, why would not, “the LET US, be speaking to those seven spirits which make up the creative Will of GOD, be what was used in the creative Process, that would go along with not only His words, but the “LET US” scripture also. Granted that is speculation on my part but it lines better with other scriptures Mike..
What you are not getting i believe is, God's new creation of Human being sons of his was his ultimate Goal, and the scriptures you use to means he did it through Jesus , can only apply in the sense that God first took a Son of Man Jesus Christ and through him. was the first one created by God, for his planned purpose for all mankind, and where it says “WE BY” him, means because he laid down his life for us, we them are forgiven our sins and therefore it is “BY” him we can attain to that Goal also.
This is the way I and Marty and Kerwin, wakeup, and Journey understand it i believe, i am not trying to speak for them but i do believe they understand it that way. That makes Jesus a Man, the “FIRST BORN, of HUMAN KIND to achieve the ultimate Goal , GOD had in Mind from the foundations of the earth, and everything physically created in Earth and the entire Universe was made for him and us all . IMO
peace and love for you and yours…………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 28 2013,09:50) Mike ……..Every thing God created something Though we know the activity involved by the thing used , But you admit there is NO activity known that Jesus had anything to do with the creation process on earth, so you at best are speculating.
Gene,It isn't “speculation” to BELIEVE the scriptures that say ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH were created through Jesus.
Just because I don't know what role Jesus played doesn't mean I must ignore those scriptures completely.
Similarly, none of us know the role played by the “US” when God said, “Let US make man…..”. Does the fact that we aren't told what role the “US” played mean we should just disallow that scripture, and forget it was ever written?
So I could “speculate” on what role Jesus played if I wanted to. But it isn't speculation to believe the scriptures when they say God created all things through and for Jesus.
Can YOU tell me who the “US” is in Genesis 1:26? Can you tell me what role they played in the creation of mankind? If not, then your first words in the quote box above aren't exactly accurate.
Mike………. Why not ignore them, then, if you have no idea what they are actually saying, and to say that is not “SPECULATION” is simply untrue, if you ask me. When you are not sure of something and draw some conclusion on it, that is a Speculating Mike.
What i meant by those words, was we know what part other played in our existence , for instance Adam and Eve were the First humans, but through them we came into existence, Their DNA was spread through all Human beings, so we can see their role in our existence. God used Moses and we can see his role , But when scripture says God “ALONE” and BY HIMSELF” did something then that would exclude anyone else involved, Right?.
Now you just ignore that scripture as if it was not even written, and insist Jesus was the “LET US” thing. I do not disregard those scriptures in my conclusions. So looking for something that would Fit I can see only that it is Speaking of the SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD, they are called the eyes of God they compose His intellects. That understanding does not go against any scripture involved in the creative process. But your saying that you are not speculating about them meaning Jesus, that is simply not true because you have no supporting evidence to back you up.
We have explained what the scripture you use means concerning Jesus with regards to the word “Through”,meaning for the sake of or for, and Strong's concordance supports that conclusion, it fit the rest of that scripture especially the, and we “BY HIM” part. Jesus is the first of a complete NEW CREATION of MAN> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 28 2013,23:11) Mike………. Why not ignore them, then, if you have no idea what they are actually saying, and to say that is not “SPECULATION” is simply untrue, if you ask me. When you are not sure of something and draw a some conclusion on it that is a Speculating Mike. What i meant by those words, was we know what part other played in our existence , for instance Adam and Eve were the First humans, but through them we came into existence, Their DNA was spread through all Human beings, so we can see their role in our existence. God used Moses and we can see his role , But when scripture says God “ALONE” and BY HIMSELF” did something then that would exclude anyone else involved, Right?.
Now you just ignore that scripture as if it was not even written, and insist Jesus was the “LET US” thing. I do not disregard those scriptures in my conclusions. So looking for something that would Fit I can see only that it is Speaking of the SEEN SPIRITS of GOD, they are called the eyes of God they compose His intellects. That understand does not go against any scripture involved in the creative process. But you saying that you are not speculating about them meaning Jesus is simply not true becasue you have no supporting evidence to back you up.
We have explained what the scripture you use means concerning Jesus with regards to the word “Through”,meaning for the sake of or for, and Strong's concordance supports that conclusion, it fit the rest of that scripture especially the and we “BY HIM” part. Jesus is the first of a complete NEW CREATION of MAN> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
GENEyou mist to answer Mike questions ,please could you do that
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 28 2013,11:11) Mike………. Why not ignore them, then, if you have no idea what they are actually saying, and to say that is not “SPECULATION” is simply untrue, if you ask me. When you are not sure of something and draw a some conclusion on it that is a Speculating Mike.
Gene, scripture says “all things came FROM God”. What does that mean? What exact ACTIONS did God take? Did He spit all those things out of His mouth? Did He cross His arms and scrunch up His face like I Dream of Jeannie? Did speak the word “earth”, and the earth just appeared? Or did He speak the word “earth”, and His WORD actually took on a life of its own and went about forming the earth out of the elements of the heavens?See? We don't know what SPECIFIC ACTIONS God took when He created all things, do we? Yet we can still believe that God DID create all things, right?
Same thing. We don't specifically know WHAT ACTIONS were involved in everything being created THROUGH Jesus. But we can still believe the scriptures that say all things were created through him anyway, right?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 28 2013,11:11) So looking for something that would Fit I can see only that it is Speaking of the SEEN SPIRITS of GOD, they are called the eyes of God they compose His intellects.
So then God DIDN'T actually create mankind “ALONE and BY HIMSELF”? Because God did it with the HELP of seven other spirits, according to you, right?Remember that if they are called the spirits OF God, and the eyes OF God, they can't actually BE God Himself. So, according to you, God AND seven of HIS spirits created mankind.
That doesn't match up with “ALONE and BY MYSELF”, does it?
In fact, the word “US” in Genesis 1:26, in and of itself, seems to contradict “ALONE and BY MYSELF”.
So MY understanding aligns, because I know that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, created me – even though He did that THROUGH many other vessels, including His firstborn Son Jesus Christ.
Gene, what do you think about wisdom being “the craftsman at God's side” when He created? If this “wisdom” was “at God's side”, then this “wisdom” wasn't actually God Himself, right?
So what does it mean that God had something or somebody “at His side” acting as a master craftsman during the process of creation?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2013,04:29) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 27 2013,10:35) Hi Mike: You and Pierre teach that Jesus pre-existed and that when the scriptures state that all things were created through him, it means that it was Jesus that he was using the process of creating every thing.
But God states that he alone created every thing by himself according to the scriptures posted below, and so, how do you dispute what God has stated.
I believe that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, created me. But I'm also aware that God did that THROUGH many other vessels, such as Adam, Eve, Noah, my grandparents, my parents, etc.The fact that God created me THROUGH these other vessels doesn't change the fact that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, is the only one who created me.
Remember the words of Tertullian: He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.
Notice that the one THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is NOT the creator. The creator is still the ONLY one who actually created the thing.
So do you understand that God creating all things THROUGH Jesus does NOT contradict the scriptures you thought it contradicted?
Mike:God created Adam out of the dust of the ground and Eve from one of his ribs.
Eve from them is the mother of all of humanity. You were born of the sperm of man, in other worlds from the seed that God put in the first man.
God said that he alone by himself created all things, and Genesis 1, states “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and then it proceeds to tell us that he created all of the host of the heavens and earth.
He does have help from the Elohim in making man in his image, this is a process that he accomplishes through his Word. He uses angels and men in the process, but no, he did not have help in creating the heavens and the earth and the host thereof.
Isn't Tertullian the first to use “trinitas” from whence comes the “Trinity doctrine”?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Marty,
Yes, Tertullian IS the one who coined the phrase “trinity”. But that doesn't change the logic of his words that I quoted.
Marty, did God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, create you?
Mike……….God alone started all creation of every kind in existence, He made it able to reproduce it self and fill the complete earth. The very word create is not a Hebrew word at all, no such word exists in the original language, the word we use as create, is actually (fattening), God fattened the earth as those things he put seed in, expanded and filled all the earth.
The word Elohim is a uni-plural word , it's kind of like saying our bodies, in a sense, they are composed of parts, The “one God”, is composed of SEVEN DISTINCT SPIRITS (INTELLECTS) that make up the summation of his being. They are present in all creation in the earth, and are before the LORD “YAHWEH” our GOD'S, THRONE, they are his seven eyes, (intellects), he uses and with the POWERS they have, do in all the earth, HIS WILL. IMO.
Jesus has these and that is why it says, Thy “THRONE” O GOD is an everlasting “THRONE”, because it is GOD himself “IN” Jesus bringing it all about. The LORD, “YAHWEH' was recognizing those seven Spirits of his in Jesus.
Remember where it says sit on my right side until I (YAHWEH), our GOD, make all your (Jesus') enemies your foot stool, and again where it says, He (Jesus) must rule until he has put all things under “HIS FEET”. So Jesus will rule, but it will be GOD, who is doing the Works of bringing it all about.
As far as the LORD our GOD being a Genie , he is about the closest thing to it , especially when you consider Jesus' words, “ALL” thing are possible with GOD”, and again, “there is “NOTHING” impossible with GOD” I put nothing outside the realm of his ability except possibly Him recreating Himself. IMO
About did God alone and by himself create you , that would depend on what part of “You” are you talking about , he originally created a man and women with life giving seed in them, to procreate, but i believe our individual Spirits are given us by him alone , and he sends us forth into his physical creation with them , Just as he does the angels also, he creates their spirits in them also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,13:49) Hi Marty, Yes, Tertullian IS the one who coined the phrase “trinity”. But that doesn't change the logic of his words that I quoted.
Marty, did God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, create you?
Mike:I do not put any confidence in what Tertullian may or may not have stated. It is the Word of God that is the authority in the church.
I am one of God's creatures, and a son of God by the Spirit of adoption through Jesus Christ, my Lord, and He alone created Adam, but He did not create me as he did Adam.
I am born of Adam's seed, but no He did not create me, He formed me in the womb from the sperm of Adam in the womb of my mother.Love in Christ,
Marty
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