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Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,06:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2013,04:22) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 27 2013,06:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2013,11:13) Okay. Now tell me if there is a difference in MEANING between the following two statements: 1. Obama, although he was existing as the President of the U.S., came under scrutiny concerning his U.S. citizenship.
2. Obama, although existing as the President of the U.S., came under scrutiny concerning his U.S. citizenship.
Is there a difference in MEANING?
Yes, there is a difference!!#1 means that Obama is no longer President.
Why is that? Wasn't (past tense) Obama existing as President when he came (past tense) under that scrutiny?The only truthful answer is: Yes, Obama was (past tense) existing as President when he came (past tense) under that scrutiny.
And my truthful answer above, although a statement concerning a time in Obama's PAST, doesn't say one single thing about whether or not Obama is STILL President, does it? YES or NO?
No.
Then my point has been made. No need for more examples.Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,07:51) Taking on the form of a slave..AS OPPOSED TO..”being equal with God”!!
So in your mind, it doesn't make more sense that “morphe of God” is in contrast to “morphe of slave” – seeing that the same exact word is used in contrast?Interesting.
Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,07:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2013,08:39) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 27 2013,06:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2013,11:40) Does Elijah exist ON EARTH right now? YES or NO?
No!!
Does Elijah exist in heaven right now? YES or NO?
YES..I believe so.
So then if Elijah right now exists in heaven, but is later caused to be born from the womb of a human woman, it would be a case of someone being born of a woman on earth AFTER he had already existed in heaven, right?Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,08:31) Here is your FIRST mistake!!
Yes “running” is present tense, BUT “saw”, which is THE VERB is in past tense!!
Far from being my “mistake”, it is EXACTLY what I'VE been trying to show YOU all this time!
“Existing” is present tense, BUT “did not consider”, “grasped”, “emptied”, “took”, and “made”, which are THE VERBS, are in the past tense!!
The past tense form of the statement as a whole means that present tense verbs like “running” and “existing” are also things that were done in the past. The statement as a whole is about PAST events……. just like all of my examples that used a combination of present and past tense verbs.
Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) The glory that Jesus had existed WITH GOD. Now, I am not “just saying that.” I get my understanding from the fact that Jesus NEVER says “give me BACK the glory..”. Would it not make more sense for Him to say that, IF He in fact DID HAVE it in the beginning Himself? PLEASE ANSWER!!
You mean like it would make more sense for Paul to list the important events in Jesus' life IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER – like a normal person?Or like it would make more sense for Jesus to have asked for the glory GOD HAD BEEN HOLDING FOR HIM – if that is indeed what he meant?
jb, I'm sure we both acknowledge that the Greek word “para” means “with”, “in the presence of”, “alongside”, “next to”, etc.
In your understanding, Jesus didn't actually HAVE that glory yet, right? Instead, it was something God had been HOLDING for him, right?
Do the words “I HAD” really fit in that situation?
Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) I remind you that WE TOO were given glory BEFORE our birth. We, too, can say that we had glory with God before the world was created!!
Can we really say that, jb? Did you personally POSSESS glory before you existed?You want it to say that glory was with God before the foundation of the world, and Jesus didn't really ever POSSESS (have) that glory yet.
But it really says that JESUS was with God before the foundation of the world, and he really POSSESSED (had) glory of his own at that time.
As for the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, did you not read the confirmation in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity?
And you listed a slew of other scriptures…….. too many to address in one post. So I will address the first one, and if you want to address the others, we can do it one at a time.
Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) Luke 11:50
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Many translations have “since the foundation of the world” – not “from”. The Greek word is translated both ways many times in scripture. But even using “from”, we can learn that BEFORE the foundations of the world, there existed no prophets, and therefore no blood of prophets. That's why FROM, or SINCE the foundation of the world, there have been prophets, and their blood was shed.Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) 2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began………..Luke 11:50
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Okay jb,I had the time to check out the other scriptures you listed.
We can eliminate Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 4:3, since they talk about events SINCE the foundation of the world, and not BEFORE the foundation of the world.
John 17:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, and Ephesians 1:4 all have the Greek word “pro”, which means they speak about events that took place BEFORE the foundation of the world.
But of those three, John 17:5 is the ONLY one in which someone other than God says he literally had something before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9 and Eph 1:4 record actions that GOD took before the foundation of the world. And I'm quite sure that GOD did many things before the foundation of the world. Like you pointed out, GOD calls things that are not as if they were. But WE can't do that, right?
So how was JESUS able to speak of a glory that he himself POSSESSED before the world began?
There is a big difference, IMO, to “be given” something before the world began, and actually being able to say “we possessed” that thing before the world began.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,10:11) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,07:51) Taking on the form of a slave..AS OPPOSED TO..”being equal with God”!!
So in your mind, it doesn't make more sense that “morphe of God” is in contrast to “morphe of slave” – seeing that the same exact word is used in contrast?Interesting.
and yet..you still have not explained what the substance/essence of a slave is!!Interesting.
We, too, are in the image of God. Again, we too, are to empty ourselves of our own desires and will. We too are to put no one above God..not ourselves and not our family. We, too, are to be in the form of a slave. We, too, are to be obedient, even to the death!!
Maybe, it would be better to go back to Phil 1, since there is not really chapters anyway, and see what the context that leads right into Phil 2 is. I don't know. Just try and see.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,10:15) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,07:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2013,08:39) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 27 2013,06:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2013,11:40) Does Elijah exist ON EARTH right now? YES or NO?
No!!
Does Elijah exist in heaven right now? YES or NO?
YES..I believe so.
So then if Elijah right now exists in heaven, but is later caused to be born from the womb of a human woman, it would be a case of someone being born of a woman on earth AFTER he had already existed in heaven, right?
The Bible does NOT say that Elijah will be reborn and I do not believe that either!!Do you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,10:36) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,08:31) Here is your FIRST mistake!!
Yes “running” is present tense, BUT “saw”, which is THE VERB is in past tense!!
Far from being my “mistake”, it is EXACTLY what I'VE been trying to show YOU all this time!“Existing” is present tense, BUT “did not consider”, “grasped”, “emptied”, “took”, and “made”, which are THE VERBS, are in the past tense!!
The past tense form of the statement as a whole means that present tense verbs like “running” and “existing” are also things that were done in the past. The statement as a whole is about PAST events……. just like all of my examples that used a combination of present and past tense verbs.
So, you reject the word of God that clearly states that Jesus was “in the image of God” during His whole life?I only say this because you claim that He “stopped” being in the image of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,11:38) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) The glory that Jesus had existed WITH GOD. Now, I am not “just saying that.” I get my understanding from the fact that Jesus NEVER says “give me BACK the glory..”. Would it not make more sense for Him to say that, IF He in fact DID HAVE it in the beginning Himself? PLEASE ANSWER!!
FIRST..you didn't really answer the question..YES or NO!!Quote You mean like it would make more sense for Paul to list the important events in Jesus' life IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER – like a normal person? I already explained the chronological order.
Quote Or like it would make more sense for Jesus to have asked for the glory GOD HAD BEEN HOLDING FOR HIM – if that is indeed what he meant? Not necessarily. The Bible is written in a way that we would not speak today. There are words that do not even directly translate. That being said, it is perfectly fine for Jesus to say give me the glory that I had with you before the world was.
Quote jb, I'm sure we both acknowledge that the Greek word “para” means “with”, “in the presence of”, “alongside”, “next to”, etc. In your understanding, Jesus didn't actually HAVE that glory yet, right? Instead, it was something God had been HOLDING for him, right?
Do the words “I HAD” really fit in that situation?
God does not exist “in time”; therefore, TO GOD, He is not “holding it”..It is just there!! AND..I already pointed out that it does not say “I had”..it says “I had WITH you.” Jesus could easily see that God gave Him glory by reading the OT. So, as He is about to die, He says “NOW GIVE ME THAT GLORY..THAT I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”
Look at it like this..BEFORE Jesus “came on the scene”..was He given glory? YES..read the OT. Jesus is all over the OT. Now, if YOU were all over the OT and it clearly showed that God was going to glorify you, could YOU not say to God, “give me the glory that I had with you before the world was”? YES, of course you could. There are several ways that you COULD say it, but I am sure that IF you preexisted and literally HAD that glory before..you would say “give me BACK..”
You are also deleting/rejecting scripture that clearly says that Jesus was given glory for what He did during His EARTHLY life!! Think about it!!
Quote Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) I remind you that WE TOO were given glory BEFORE our birth. We, too, can say that we had glory with God before the world was created!!
Can we really say that, jb? Did you personally POSSESS glory before you existed?Yes we can. We just can't say..”give it BACK..” I did not possess it before I existed..but I did have glory WITH God before I existed!!
Quote You want it to say that glory was with God before the foundation of the world, and Jesus didn't really ever POSSESS (have) that glory yet. But it really says that JESUS was with God before the foundation of the world, and he really POSSESSED (had) glory of his own at that time.
Does it? Remember that TO GOD Jesus did already exist. TO GOD..Jesus already redeemed us. TO GOD..the end has already happened. GOD does NOT exist “in time.” Time is just “catching up” to God!! Therefore, Jesus did have glory WITH GOD before the world began!! It's really not that hard to understand.
Quote As for the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, did you not read the confirmation in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity? The book of life and all the names in it also existed WITH GOD before the foundation of the world. One does not exclude the other!!
Quote And you listed a slew of other scriptures…….. too many to address in one post. So I will address the first one, and if you want to address the others, we can do it one at a time. Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) Luke 11:50
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Many translations have “since the foundation of the world” – not “from”. The Greek word is translated both ways many times in scripture. But even using “from”, we can learn that BEFORE the foundations of the world, there existed no prophets, and therefore no blood of prophets. That's why FROM, or SINCE the foundation of the world, there have been prophets, and their blood was shed.Your claim that “before the foundations of the world there existed no prophets, and therefore no blood of prophets.” is faulty logic. YOU SEE, they did exist..in the mind/plan of GOD. Therefore, in God's word..HIS BIBLE..He can inspire men to write that they DID exist before the foundation of the world. And thus, He declares those things that are not, as IF they were!!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 02 2013,10:38) Okay jb, I had the time to check out the other scriptures you listed.
We can eliminate Luke 11:50 and Hebrews 4:3, since they talk about events SINCE the foundation of the world, and not BEFORE the foundation of the world.
John 17:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, and Ephesians 1:4 all have the Greek word “pro”, which means they speak about events that took place BEFORE the foundation of the world.
But of those three, John 17:5 is the ONLY one in which someone other than God says he literally had something before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9 and Eph 1:4 record actions that GOD took before the foundation of the world. And I'm quite sure that GOD did many things before the foundation of the world. Like you pointed out, GOD calls things that are not as if they were. But WE can't do that, right?
So how was JESUS able to speak of a glory that he himself POSSESSED before the world began?
There is a big difference, IMO, to “be given” something before the world began, and actually being able to say “we possessed” that thing before the world began.
How big is your GOD.Again, TO GOD..Jesus already existed. Jesus was given the glory already for that thing that He KNEW that Jesus would do.
And so, Jesus, recognizing that He possessed this glory with God before He existed, asks God to NOW give me that glory!!
God was not UNSURE if Jesus would “make it” or not. God KNEW that Jesus would be obedient and complete His mission. Therefore, Jesus KNEW that He had glory WITH God before the foundation of the world. Jesus knew that without Him, God would not even have bothered to create the world!!
Quote (jb2u @ Oct. 07 2013,21:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,10:11) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,07:51) Taking on the form of a slave..AS OPPOSED TO..”being equal with God”!!
So in your mind, it doesn't make more sense that “morphe of God” is in contrast to “morphe of slave” – seeing that the same exact word is used in contrast?Interesting.
and yet..you still have not explained what the substance/essence of a slave is!!Interesting.
Why do you keep bringing up “substance/essence of a slave”? Have I ever said that “morphe” means “substance/essence”?I believe it refers to the outward appearance of a thing – like the Greek dictionary tells us.
Jesus was existing in the outward appearance of God, and took on the outward appearance of a slave.
Now, I'll ask again: Doesn't it make more sense that “morphe of God” is in contrast to “morphe of slave” – seeing that the same exact word is used by Paul in what you've already acknowledged to be a statement of contrast?
Quote (jb2u @ Oct. 07 2013,21:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,10:15)
So then if Elijah right now exists in heaven, but is later caused to be born from the womb of a human woman, it would be a case of someone being born of a woman on earth AFTER he had already existed in heaven, right?
The Bible does NOT say that Elijah will be reborn and I do not believe that either!!Do you?
I believe Elijah has already returned – as John the Baptist. I believe this because Jesus told me exactly that.But since you don't believe Elijah has already returned, please address the point as it is: IF Elijah is later caused by God to be born of a human woman, would it be a case of someone being born of a woman on earth AFTER he had already existed in heaven? YES or NO?
And is this possible for God? YES or NO?
Quote (jb2u @ Oct. 07 2013,21:26) So, you reject the word of God that clearly states that Jesus was “in the image of God” during His whole life? I only say this because you claim that He “stopped” being in the image of God.
I don't believe such a statement is ever actually made in any scripture, but NO, I don't reject such a thing. God said, “Let us make them in OUR image, and OUR likeness.” I believe God's spirit sons were created in the image of God long before God created earthly sons in THEIR (God's and his spirit sons') image and likeness. And there is no reason to assume that either God's spirit sons or His earthly sons ceased to be in His image at any time – although many of both groups have failed to act like God.But it seems absolutely logical in the context of Phil 2 that Paul was contrasting “form of God” against “form of a slave”. And the “form of a slave” is equated with “being made in the likeness of a human being”.
And since we both agree that every human being that God created exists in His image, “being made in human likeness” does NOT mean “losing the image of God”.
So, for the purposes of contrast, Paul could say that Jesus traded in his form of God for the form of a human slave – without implying that Jesus ever stopped being in the image of God – as all men and angels are.
If you could keep your eye on the CONTRAST that you know is being made by Paul, and at the same time forget your flawed understanding that forfeiting the “form of God” means “stopped being in the image of God”, you'd be closer to the truth.
Because it is apparent that Paul never intended to say Jesus at any time stopped being in the image of God. But it is equally apparent that Paul WAS contrasting “form of God” against “form of a slave”.
Quote (jb2u @ Oct. 07 2013,21:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2013,11:38) Quote (jb2u @ Sep. 29 2013,09:47) The glory that Jesus had existed WITH GOD. Now, I am not “just saying that.” I get my understanding from the fact that Jesus NEVER says “give me BACK the glory..”. Would it not make more sense for Him to say that, IF He in fact DID HAVE it in the beginning Himself? PLEASE ANSWER!!
FIRST..you didn't really answer the question..YES or NO!!
Oh, you were serious? I thought you were making a joke.The answer is: Any time anyone ever asks for something HE HAD BEFORE, he is, by necessity, asking to have that thing GIVEN BACK to him. He is asking for it to be RETURNED to him.
So when Jesus said, Give me this thing I HAD with you BEFORE the world began, then he is most definitely asking for the RETURN of something he previously HAD. He is asking for that thing to be GIVEN BACK to him.
Quote (jb2u @ Oct. 07 2013,21:58) Jesus could easily see that God gave Him glory by reading the OT. Look at it like this..BEFORE Jesus “came on the scene”..was He given glory? YES..read the OT.
If God had already GIVEN him that glory, why do you suppose he was ASKING FOR IT?Let's call it like it is so far………
1. Phil 2: You must believe that Paul was not contrasting “form of God” against “form of a slave” – even though it seems fairly obvious that he was.
You must also believe that Paul (for some odd reason) summarized the important events of Jesus' life OUT OF chronological order. That is the only way you can deny he was teaching us that Jesus was existing in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being.
But what if Paul did what any other normal person would do in the same situation – and listed all those things IN chronological order?
THEN would Phil 2 be a pre-existent proof? And is it hard for you to believe that I could understand Paul's summary as being in chronological order? Is there any good reason that I SHOULDN'T understand that summary in chronological order?
2. John 17: You must understand the clear words “the glory I HAD” as referring to a glory that was given to Jesus by God from the beginning – per the OT. But you haven't yet explained why Jesus would be ASKING FOR something that had already been GIVEN TO HIM from the beginning.
But what if the sentient being Jesus Christ was asking for the return of a glory that the sentient being Jesus Christ actually HAD in the presence of God before the world was founded?
THEN would it be a pre-existent proof? And is it hard for you to believe that someone like me could understand, Give to me now the glory I had before the world began to be Jesus asking for the RETURN of a glory he actually HAD before the world began? Is there any scripture that would PROHIBIT such an understanding?
So the way I see it so far, I am just understanding clear scriptures in the most sensible way they can be understood – while you are constantly searching for much less sensible, alternate ways those same words could be understood.
Okay. We started to talk a little about John 6, and “I came down from heaven”. Let's finish that one up.
You say that “I came down from heaven” basically means that Jesus, like John the Baptist, was a man sent from God. Is that correct?
This video is about a subject we all agree with. But it also talks much about the origins of the son too. Hence why I have added this here.
Quote (jb2u @ Oct. 08 2013,15:06) Again, TO GOD..Jesus already existed. Jesus was given the glory already for that thing that He KNEW that Jesus would do. And so, Jesus, recognizing that He possessed this glory with God before He existed, asks God to NOW give me that glory!!
God was not UNSURE if Jesus would “make it” or not. God KNEW that Jesus would be obedient and complete His mission. Therefore, Jesus KNEW that He had glory WITH God before the foundation of the world. Jesus knew that without Him, God would not even have bothered to create the world!!
T8 and Mike……….jb2u, is absolutely right, Jesus understood the glory he had before the foundation of the earth in store for him. He never had it before he was on the earth because he never existed before his berth, except in the plan and will of God.Your false preaching of Jesus “preexistence” is purely wrong. That false teaching only serves to Separate Jesus from his human roots and is a Doctrine of Separation
It is exactly what Satan want people to think, by makes them believe Jesus was different then they are , so they lose their belief in becoming a Son of God exactly like Jesus is in every way.
That “DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION', causes doubts in the mind of men , because it moves Jesus Identity away from themselves, it is exactly what the devil want people to do. He does not want people to see that God took and ordinary PROPHESIED, human being and perfected him. The first from human kind to achieve the Goal God has in mind for us all.
I realize you people do not understand this but you are not serving God or Jesus by your false teachings. IMO
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2013,09:42) Jesus understood the glory he had before the foundation of the earth in store for him. He never had it before he was on the earth because he never existed before his berth, except in the plan and will of God.
But the words in John 17:5, “glorify me now with the glory I HAD with you before the world began” don't match your addition of “the glory you had IN STORE for me”, Gene. You are making additions to what was written – and doing it for solely personal reasons.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2013,09:42) That “DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION', causes doubts in the mind of men , because it moves Jesus Identity away from themselves,
And that is the personal reason I was talking about. You have a personal WISH for Jesus to have been nothing but a regular old human being like us, so you can feel more “empowered” to accomplish the things he did – or whatever. But Jesus was never just like us, Gene.Even if you twist or ignore the clear scriptures that speak of Jesus' pre-existence, surely you have to admit that sin entered into all of us through Adam, but Jesus was born without sin since he didn't have a human father.
So that right there “moves Jesus' identity away from us”.
Mike…….we have discussed that many times and it has been explained to you not only by me but others also. That Glory was a Predestined Glory afforded him before he was ever Born, Jesus a Human Being Knew that that glory was afforded him before he was ever born, and he desired it. Or haven you read where it is written he did what he did for the “glory that was set before Him” .
1 Peter 1:11….> Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ (the anointing) which was “IN” them did signify, when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the “GLORY” that should “FOLLOW”.
and again….> ! Pe 1:21….> Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him “GLORY; that your faith and hope be in “GOD”.
1Cor 2:7…> but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained “BEFORE” the world unto our “GLORY”.
This is the same with Jesus our lord also. No Difference Mike, it was all planned for us and Jesus also before the foundations of the earth.
Many people had Glory planned for them before they were even born,, King Cryus, John the Baptist, Jeremiah, Moses, and on and on it goes to even us all who are the first fruits of them the sleep. We have a predestined Glory afforded us which we have not yet received. IMO
peace and love………………….gene
Mike……….I DON'T FEEL MORE EMPOWERED AT ALL, i FEEL MORE CONNECTED TO HIM AS A KINSMEN AND CAN MORE EASILY RELATE TO HIM AND HIS SUFFERINGS AS A FELLOW HUMAN BEING, WHICH GIVES ME A BETTER APPRECIATION OF HIS SACRIFICE AND THE PERFECTING WORK OF GOD THE FATHER WORK, IN HUMANITY. I really don't know why you would even think that , it is your approach that is destroying the effect of Jesus' sacrifice, not me, by you separating Jesus from his Humanity.
You and those like you are driving a wedge between Jesus and us by making him “different”, Not Me or others, who understand Jesus was a true SON OF MAN, and came into his existence through a berth in the human race. You have it all backwards Mike, it humbles me to understand Jesus' humanity, and it in some way saddens me, to think he had to go through what he had to in order for me to be forgiven my sins, it does not empower me at all Mike.
peace and love………………………………….gene
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