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Irene…….God (the word) Elohim means (POWERS) did you know that the word is an adjetive describing Force or strength, it say GOD is Good, that means That's the POWER or FORCE or GOOD, there is also a POWER OR FORCE OF EVIL. Both are from (ONE) TREE. They have one and the same source, they Came from the LORD GOD HIMSELF. He created them in the beginning of all creation. and understand the balance of these gives wisdom. Don't you think for a moment that GOD could have prevent Evil from influencing us if he wanted to. But that would left man in a state of ignorance, because they would not have understood the difference. The LORD KNOW that and wanted man to be like Him (i said like him not be him) How by Knowing (experiencing) Good and Evil, So he made us in a temporary condition for that very purpose. To experience and gain wisdom from both good and evil to be more like Him. We (learned) to hate Evil and love Good. it all was in God's plan from the very start and even God set the GOAL, A mark for us to reach and when we sin we miss that make, but we must jet up and try harder with the help of God to achieve that mark . Every thing is going just as God has planed it all along Irene.
O and in my opioid no one is born a sinner He becomes on by what he received in this world. Jesus said bring the little children unto me for of such are the kingdom of Heaven. They are not born sinners the learn to be sinners. IMOlove to you and Georg………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2008,11:30) Irene…….God (the word) Elohim means (POWERS) did you know that the word is an adjetive describing Force or strength, it say GOD is Good, that means That's the POWER or FORCE or GOOD, there is also a POWER OR FORCE OF EVIL. Both are from (ONE) TREE. They have one and the same source, they Came from the LORD GOD HIMSELF. He created them in the beginning of all creation. and understand the balance of these gives wisdom. Don't you think for a moment that GOD could have prevent Evil from influencing us if he wanted to. But that would left man in a state of ignorance, because they would not have understood the difference. The LORD KNOW that and wanted man to be like Him (i said like him not be him) How by Knowing (experiencing) Good and Evil, So he made us in a temporary condition for that very purpose. To experience and gain wisdom from both good and evil to be more like Him. We (learned) to hate Evil and love Good. it all was in God's plan from the very start and even God set the GOAL, A mark for us to reach and when we sin we miss that make, but we must jet up and try harder with the help of God to achieve that mark . Every thing is going just as God has planed it all along Irene.
O and in my opioid no one is born a sinner He becomes on by what he received in this world. Jesus said bring the little children unto me for of such are the kingdom of Heaven. They are not born sinners the learn to be sinners. IMOlove to you and Georg………………………gene
Hi Gene:You say:
Quote Both are from (ONE) TREE. They have one and the same source, they Came from the LORD GOD HIMSELF. God is the source of evil?
942767……….God in Isa, said he created it . Stop and think lets just remove all evil from you mind, tell me then how are you to know what it is if it did not exist. or lets supposed we removed all good from your existence , how could you know what evil is them. Don't you see we need both in order to understand the other. You can apply this to lots of things, right fro let, up from down, north from south. east fro west and on and on it goes, in order for you to recieve a proper balance you have to have the knowledge of both. God is the source of (ALL) thing both in heaven and on earth. There is nothing that ultimately did not come from the LORD GOD.
peace………..gene
942767…….who do you think put that TREE there in the FIRST place. It was GOD himself.
love to you………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2008,11:40) 942767……….God in Isa, said he created it . Stop and think lets just remove all evil from you mind, tell me then how are you to know what it is if it did not exist. or lets supposed we removed all good from your existence , how could you know what evil is them. Don't you see we need both in order to understand the other. You can apply this to lots of things, right fro let, up from down, north from south. east fro west and on and on it goes, in order for you to recieve a proper balance you have to have the knowledge of both. God is the source of (ALL) thing both in heaven and on earth. There is nothing that ultimately did not come from the LORD GOD. peace………..gene
gb,
Why offer taoism when we have scripture?I wanted to move this over from the 'Adam was not deceived' thread, because it belongs here.
Nick,
Why must you and others see everything from a pagan mind? I find it very sad that you are all so blind, and I pray that YHWH will open your eyes.
Luke 10:14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades. 16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
The adversary falls like lightening, is symbolic just like Capernaum is exalted to heaven and brought down to hades is symbolic. The carnal mind with it’s evil spirits will be overtaken by the power of God and thus will fall from it’s position of ruling over man.
Pr 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.
Nick these scripture are speaking about humans.
Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, Will be trampled underfoot;
Pride is just ONE of many EVIL SPIRITS that works in men, it is a very dominant one. Supernatural beings do not influence us to be prideful, it comes from man's own heart.
Jer 48:29 “We have heard the pride of Moab (He is exceedingly proud), Of his loftiness and arrogance and pride, And of the haughtiness of his heart.”
Jer 49:16 Your fierceness has deceived you, The pride of your heart, O you who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Who hold the height of the hill! Though you make your nest as high as the eagle, I will bring you down from there,” says the Lord.
Ob 1:3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, You who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Whose habitation is high; You who say in your heart, 'Who will bring me down to the ground?
Nick you and other such as WJ, Irene and Georg need to stop ignoring scriptures, as well as looking at symbolic ones under a pagan mind.
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) Good Evening WJ, HMMM, let's see, where should we begin?
Well, for starters, what I don't see in the bible is this actual evil spiritual being of whom you talk about. I find these scriptures interesting given your view,
Then you disagree with the NT writers and our Lord’s own words.“AND IF SATAN CAST OUT SATAN, HE IS DIVIDED AGAINST HIMSELF”; HOW SHALL THEN “HIS KINGDOM STAND”? Matt 12:26
The Gospels that speak of “satan” as a sentient being, (that Jesus spoke to in the wilderness and that he spoke of as having a kingdom that is not divided against itself, and his testimony that he saw “satan” fall from heaven), were written before any of the epistles from which you have derived your false doctrine from, scriptures which you have twisted and inferred upon with your own personal views.
The writers of the Gospels however did hear Jesus words and also had the Hebrew Scriptures which clearly teach in Job that satan is a sentient being that is apposed to God and man and is not just man’s evil nature or “belly” as you have claimed.
If a 10 year old only had the gospels they could easily tell you about satan the enemy of God and man.
You deny the very fundamentals of the Greek language like “proper masculine pronouns”, the definite article, pronouns and adjectives etc in order to cling to the heretical teaching that satan doesn’t exist as a sentient being.
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, “even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I BEHELD SATAN AS LIGHTNING FALL FROM HEAVEN.” Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and “over all the power of the enemy“: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, “that the spirits are subject unto you“; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Luke 10:17-20
There is couple of things to note here.
First satan, (not mans evil flesh or nature), fell from heaven. This is the same Greek word (οὐρανός ouranos) which Jesus used some 125 times in the Gospels in referring to the Kingdom of God where the Father dwells. Based on Greek structure and the language of the text satan here cannot possibly be man's evil nature or flesh or just an evil thought. That is pure inference on your part.
Secondly, Jesus clarifies that the “devils” are “spirits” that were subject to them. Spirit is not mans flesh or evil nature or evil thoughts. Words have the nature of Spirit when they are spoken, but according to you and GB the “spoken words” are the devils that were subject to them. This makes no sense and is simply pure inference. The writers could have used the Greek word “logos” for word (Luke 24:19), or “dialogismos” for thought (luke 9:47), but they didn’t.
In fact Jesus words support John's heavenly vision when he wrote…
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and HIS ANGELS“, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. “And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the DEVIL, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world” (2 Cor 4:4): he was cast out into the earth, and “HIS ANGELS” were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for “the accuser of our brethren is cast down”, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to “THE INHABITERS OF THE EARTH” and of the sea! for “THE DEVIL” is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when “THE DRAGON SAW” that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Rev 12:7-13
A few things to note about these passages are…
1. There was war in heaven, Michael and his Angels fought against the dragon and his angels. We know that Michael and his Angels are real sentient spirit beings, so there is no reason to believe that the “dragon” also called the “devil and “satan” and his angels are not sentient beings. Jude supports this when he writes…
Yet Michael the archangel, “WHEN CONTENDING WITH THE DEVIL” he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9
Here we see “Michael the Archangel “contending” with the devil, yet your theology says that Michael is contending with mans nature or evil thoughts or words over the body of Moses. This is Foolishness. Scriptures interpret themselves and clearly here is an example of the devil as a sentient being.
2. Michael the Archangel has “angels” (messengers) and the “dragon” “satan” has angels (messengers). Do words or thoughts or an evil nature have messengers?
3. The terms “dragon”, “old serpent”, “devil”, and “satan” are the same being, the one spoken of in Genesis and Job. You do not need any special revelation to see that.
4. Notice the “pronouns”, His, he and him. The Greek word is “autos” which is found over 1900 times in the NT and is invariably used in speaking of a person or a sentient being.
5. Notice THE INHABITERS OF THE EARTH as apposed to the dragon who has come down having great wrath against them. This is clear evidence that the “dragon” or “satan” is not man or his evil nature or thoughts. Jesus clearly spoke of a kingdom of which he says…
”…And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. Mark 3:26
Jesus clearly is saying satan's kingdom is not divided against itself, so this could not be referring to men for we know this is not true of the kingdoms of men.
But you deny these facts and continue to propagate a non biblical theory that satan does not exist as a sentient being by twisting and inferring your view on clear scriptures that shows that an arch-enemy of God exist with a kingdom of darkness that has gates…
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and “His Kingdom Was Full Of Darkness”; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,… Rev 16:10
The gates of this kingdom will not prevail against the Church.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and “THE GATES OF HELL” shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18
But you say this warfare against the beast, the false prophet and satan is mans flesh.
Our war is not merely the temptations of the flesh or carnal nature, but is against spiritual wickedness in high places…
Put on the whole armour of God, “that ye may be able TO STAND AGAINST THE WILES OF THE DEVIL”. “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood”, but “AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES, AGAINST POWERS, AGAINST THE RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES”. Eph 6:11, 12
Jesus battle with the flesh in the wilderness against hunger did not e
nd there, but it was the temptation of satan to command the stones to become bread when he had the power to.But with your theory you have set up our Lord to look like a maniac by talking to himself. I can imagine you saying to the Lord when he explained his battle against satan to sound like this… “But Lord you really do not believe satan was a real being do you”? Not only that you make the writers of the Gospels into idiots by claiming that they didn’t know what they were talking about when they referred to satan without explaining somewhere that satan was just mans evil nature or evil thoughts.
WJ
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
De 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
“Therfore, “CHOOSE LIFE” that you may live and not be cursed. Job was perfect and righteous in the Lord’s eyes. The blessings or curses were based on their “OBEDIENCE” to the Lord. Job was obedient. It was the enemy that brought the curse on Job.… HAST THOU CONSIDERED MY SERVANT JOB, THAT THERE IS NONE LIKE HIM IN THE EARTH, A PERFECT AND AN UPRIGHT MAN, ONE THAT FEARETH GOD, AND ESCHEWETH EVIL? Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, BEHOLD, HE IS IN THINE HAND; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
Ex 9:10 Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast.
The sores broke out on the Egyptians, yet the LORD PROTECTED his people from the plagues in the land of Goshen.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) De 28:27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.
But it shall come to pass, IF THOU WILT NOT HEARKEN UNTO THE VOICE OF THE LORD THY GOD, TO OBSERVE TO DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS AND HIS STATUTES WHICH I COMMAND THEE THIS DAY; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: Deut 28:15Context Jodi, Job was a PERFECT AND AN UPRIGHT MAN, ONE THAT FEARETH GOD, AND ESCHEWETH EVIL.
No cursing from the hand of God will come to the righteous (Those who walk uprightly). You are teaching a “LIE” if you believe this. For the same Lord that said they would be cursed if they rebel against him also said in the same chapter…
If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the “LORD YOUR GOD WILL SET YOU HIGH ABOVE ALL THE NATIONS ON EARTH”. “ALL THESE BLESSINGS WILL COME UPON YOU” and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God: “You will be BLESSED IN THE CITY AND BLESSED IN THE COUNTRY. The fruit of your womb will be “BLESSED”, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. Your basket and your kneading trough will be “BLESSED”. You will be “BLESSED WHEN YOU COME IN AND BLESSED WHEN YOU GO OUT”. “The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you WILL BE DEFEATED BEFORE YOU”. (satan was defeated after the second chapter. Job was restored with twice what he had) They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven. Deut 21:1-7
What strange doctrine you teach that the righteous will be cursed by God. That is not the God of the Bible. The roaring lion roams about seeking whom he may devour.
Be sober, be vigilant; because “your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour“: 1 Peter 5:8
Our flesh walks about seeking whom it may devour?
Foolishness!
WJ
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) Job's friends were following IN the revelations of which God gave them, which is that YHWH CAUSES BLESSINGS AND CURSINGS, HIS POWERS BRING ON BOILS. But YOU want to follow the heathen, with their ideas of false gods having powers to curse. How DARE YOU go against the word of God and His powers.
Lies, YHWH doesn’t bring coursings on the righteous and obedient! The boils were given to Job by satan the enemy of God and Job…But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, “BEHOLD, HE IS IN THINE HAND; BUT SAVE HIS LIFE”. “SO WENT SATAN forth from the presence of the LORD, AND SMOTE JOB WITH SORE BOILS FROM THE SOLE OF HIS FOOT UNTO HIS CROWN”. Job 2:3-7
Satan who is the accuser of the brethren accuses Job by saying Job will curse God to his face if he touched his flesh. But the Lord said…
“BEHOLD, HE IS IN THINE HAND; BUT SAVE HIS LIFE”, So satan went out and struck Job with boils.
Satan the Father of lies lurks over your shoulder to lie against the scriptures.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. YLT Job 2:7 And the Adversary goeth forth from the presence of Jehovah, and smiteth Job with a sore ulcer from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
But you say…Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) YHWH CAUSES BLESSINGS AND CURSINGS, HIS POWERS BRING ON BOILS.
Yet the scriptures say…“ALL THESE BLESSINGS WILL COME UPON YOU” and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God: “You will be BLESSED IN THE CITY AND BLESSED IN THE COUNTRY. Deut 28:2, 3
And…“SO WENT SATAN forth from the presence of the LORD, AND SMOTE JOB WITH SORE BOILS FROM THE SOLE OF HIS FOOT UNTO HIS CROWN”
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
Again, Baal was in rebellion against the Lord and the “adversary” here was an Angel of the Lord to withstand Baal because of his rebellion. Not all adversaries are “satan”. But apparently you can not make the distinction.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) THERE IS NO AUTHORITY to say that IN THE BIBLE that some individual PERSON with the NAME SATAN exists, that is to be ignorant of the Hebrew word-!tX with the phonetic spelling of saw-tawn'.
Then the book of Job doesn’t exist and Jesus and the Apostles are liars.The Hebrew word for satan is a masculine noun and means..
1) adversary, one who withstands
a) adversary (in general – personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary
a) Satan (as noun pr)The Greek word for satan (Satanas) a proper masculine noun means…
1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin
2) circumventing men by his wiles
3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
5) by God's assistance he is overcome
6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
b) a Satan-like manBut you think you know more than the thousands of translators and commentators, yet you cannot give us any source for your opinions, except that you think that you are right and everyone else is wrong, and infact you accuse everyone who disagrees with you as worshipping satan.
WJ
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
It should be obvious to anyone who wants to study the bible away from the harlot, as to how the creation of the false god SATAN came into existence (through the RCC).
Do you have proof of that? We don’t need the RCC to see that the scriptures clearly teach that satan is a sentient being called the god of this world who deceives the nations.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) Does Dantes Inferno sound familiar??
Yes, and it surrounds your teaching appearing as an angel of light.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) I say false god because that is exactly what you do WJ, when you give over God's powers to another being, you create a false god.
No I didn’t create this false God that Jesus spoke of and the Apostles like Paul…“THE “GOD” (theos) OF THIS AGE” has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) You and Nick, and other people like Irene and Georg all worship this false god you call SATAN. You FEAR HIM and preach others should fear him, therefore you worship him and try to get others to worship him.
This is hilarious. We say satan is an enemy of God and his people and that we are blessed and not cursed because we are righteous in Christ, and you say “SATAN IS A FRIEND OR MESSANGER OF GOD”!Who is worshiping him? Who is giving him honor by calling him a friend or messenger of God?
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) Just like the 'Satans' that were God's messengers in Numbers, the Satan in Job was one of God's messenger's too.
First of all there are no “satan’s” in numbers, but an Angel of the Lord who stood as an “adversary” against a rebellious Prophet. Secondly, there is no scripture that says satan in Job is a messenger of God but in fact is an enemy of Job and God.And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) You want to tell me that Job's friend's were WRONG in attributing Job's suffering to God, even though God told their people that HE CAUSES such cursings?
Not true. Satan brought the evil on Job. God does not bring evil or curses on the upright and obedient. Neither Job, nor his friends had the insight that it was the hand of satan that did the evil to Job. Apparently you do not have this insight either.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) You also want to ignore the warnings God gave them not to believe in false gods, false gods that were false because they were believed to have the powers that God alone had. YOUR VIEW is just unbelievable, because you call it truth, but yet it mirrors the heathens.
Who is it that believes satan is a friend of God and uses God’s power to bring evil or curses on the righteous?Do you not believe that there are evil powers that have nothing to do with the hand of God, but are in fact apposed to God?
What about these scriptures…
Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, “THEY ALSO DID IN LIKE MANNER WITH THEIR ENCHANTMENTS. FOR THEY CAST DOWN EVERY MAN HIS ROD, AND THEY BECAME SERPENTS”: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. Exod 7:11, 12
”And the magicians did so with their enchantments, AND BROUGHT UP FROGS UPON THE LAND OF EGYPT”. Exod 8:7
Obviously they had some kind of evil power.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. “For they are the SPIRITS OF DEVILS, WORKING MIRACLES”, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev 16:13, 14
Earlier you said…
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,14:10) Revelation is speaking in symbols, the dragon represents kings/kingdoms and these kings/kingdoms and their messengers will fall from their position.
Yet the above scriptures disagree with you, because the “SPIRITS OF DEVILS, WORKING MIRACLES” go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. So the dragon from whom these spirits come from are not the Kings/Kingdoms as you say.”AND HE DOETH GREAT WONDERS, SO THAT HE MAKETH FIRE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN ON THE EARTH IN THE SIGHT OF MEN”, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth “BY THE MEANS OF THOSE MIRACLES WHICH HE HAD POWER TO DO IN THE SIGHT OF THE BEAST”; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Rev 13:14
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that “WROUGHT MIRACLES BEFORE HIM, WITH WHICH HE DECEIVED THEM THAT HAD RECEIVED THE MARK OF THE BEAST”, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:20
Clearly the power to work miracles is not from God here.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec.
27 2008,16:26)
Did not Job repent at the end? Therefore, was not the adversary 's original calling to God in His presence one that worked for the betterment of Job? How can you declare that this adversary was against God? Did he not help lead Job into wisdom and repentance? By GOD he DID! Literally BY GOD he DID, because it was God's powers of whom this adversary unto Job did work!Obviously God turned good what satan meant for evil against Job.
And we know that “all things work together for good” to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. Rom 8:28
God works all things together for good, but not all things that come against the believer are good. But you still hold on to the sick view that God brings evil or curses on the righteous and obedient.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
The messenger brought onto God a work that needed to be done in Job, at first we see in the text God is curious about the whole thing because Job is an upright man, however He knows because of the particular circumstances to Job, that the messenger is right, therefore God grants the messenger to be an adversary to Job.
Those are your added words. There is no scripture that satan is a ‘messenger of God to Job”. According to your view here, God reconsidered his view that “JOB WAS PERFECT AND AN UPRIGHT MAN, ONE THAT FEARETH GOD, AND ESCHEWETH EVIL” (Job 1:8). Your view says that God is agreeing with satan, when the Lord clearly said…”and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3)Again, your warped view is that God curses and brings evil upon his righteous and obedient, which is a lie from satan himself.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
WJ, there are indeed times in the bible where even human beings talk things over with God, as if God has to think about what to do. There is even bargaining that goes on. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and deciding when to destroy the cities depending on the number of righteous people?
Did God destroy the righteous? No, God agreed with Abraham that if he could find just 5 righteous in the city he wouldn’t destroy it. What does that tell you?WJ
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
I know that this post won't get through your thick heathen skull, but I don't write it for you, but other's who might not cling to fearing (worshiping) Satan as you do.
And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, “DO VIOLENCE TO NO MAN, NEITHER ACCUSE ANY FALSELY”; and be content with your wages.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
God has to instruct His messenger not to kill Job, because often times that is what His messengers have had to do.Your whole argument WJ stems from your misinterpretation of this scripture.
Job 2:6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.'
But you believe God did the evil to Job, yet this scripture shows it was satan’s hand that brought the evil on God’s righteous servant. So who is misinterpreting scripture?Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
If this adversary was against God, then why would he follow God's orders?
God’s order was to save Job’s life, not to bring evil on him. This is your inference.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
If this adversary was not connected to God through God's Holy Spirit, then how would he have the powers of which the bible says come from God ALONE??
Where is the scripture that says God “alone” has power. I have shown you that “evil power” exist that does not come from God. Ultimately all power is God’s, but we do not see all things under him yet.For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:25, 26
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
Again, based on the unrighteous and disobedient and the righteous and obedient. Blessing or cursing, choose this day.Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26) The heathens believed that other beings had the power to bring forth life and death, blessings and cursings, which is EXACTLY what you teach WJ!
Again, you lie against me. Show me where I teach that satan brings forth life and blessings.It is your teaching that God is an unjust God that brings evil and curses on the upright and obedient.
Have a Happy New Year! Really!
WJ
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 28 2008,06:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2008,11:02) GB,
You should write your own bible if you do not like what God has given us.
OOHHH, nice one! What a BURN, OUCH!
Really, what kind of lame comment is that? Gene obviously holds what God has given us in the bible to be true, he just sees it different from you.
Don't you have anything constructive to say?
Hi JodiTalk about pulling the beam out of your eye.
You say to NH…
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 28 2008,06:23) Don't you have anything constructive to say?
Yet you say to me…Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
I know that this post won't get through your thick heathen skull, but I don't write it for you, but other's who might not cling to fearing (worshiping) Satan as you do.
Amazing!WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 31 2008,00:00) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 28 2008,06:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2008,11:02) GB,
You should write your own bible if you do not like what God has given us.
OOHHH, nice one! What a BURN, OUCH! Really, what kind of lame comment is that? Gene obviously holds what God has given us in the bible to be true, he just sees it different from you.
Don't you have anything constructive to say?
Hi JodiTalk about pulling the beam out of your eye.
You say to NH…
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 28 2008,06:23) Don't you have anything constructive to say?
Yet you say to me…Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 27 2008,16:26)
I know that this post won't get through your thick heathen skull, but I don't write it for you, but other's who might not cling to fearing (worshiping) Satan as you do.
Amazing!WJ
WJ,That comment made me laugh
Nick hardly ever explains anything, he usually says stuff like 'so you don't believe scripture then', “so you don't believe Jesus then” and leaves it at that.
I had ample to say to YOU, that comment about my intending readers of my post, was within many scriptures and lots of IMO constructive points.
Sorry if my opinion hurt your feelings WJ, but I am on hear to be honest, and I was telling the truth. I view you as having a thick skull and that you follow a Christian religion fully soaked in paganism.
I might have never believed in the trinity, but since the time I was in school I have been taught about fallen angels. I use to believe most all of what Irene teaches for over 20 years. I am fully reading what people are writing for their case that Satan is a supernatural being, but I am not hearing anything knew, just the same old pagan ideas warped into the bible. I am not going to go back to being blind and superstitious, and most importantly fearing a creature who does not exist.
HI WJ,
They were MAGICIANS, MAGICIANS, which means they use trickery and deceit to make things appear something that they are not. WOW.
WJ, do you have NO IDEA of all the supposed miracles that go on everyday by so called 'healers'?
Thousands and thousands of people here in the United States cling to mega churches with so called 'healers' and they ALL believe THESE FALSE PROPHETS and their FALSE MIRACLES.
Did it ever occur to you WHY they are called FALSE prophets? Because that which they say and do is deceit, not real.
The main problem with your understanding IMO, which I have explained before is that the bible specifically says which Powers are God's and He warns the people NOT to believe in creatures having these powers.
But that is exactly what you do, you give YHWH”s powers to creatures, and you fear them and teach others to fear them, thus you worship false gods.
13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The false prophet DECEIVES, the signs, miracles are all trickery, just like the magicians and healers of today have NO REAL powers, but by golly there are a ton of people who sure believe that they really do.
Hi WJ,
You say, “Again, you lie against me. Show me where I teach that satan brings forth life and blessings.”
I said, “The heathens believed that other beings had the power to bring forth life and death, blessings and cursings, which is EXACTLY what you teach WJ!”
WJ, you just taught that other beings have the ability to perform miracles, which are the same thing as blessings.
WJ, you teach a supernatural being wanted to kill Job, thus giving the him power death.
You might not believe that the supernatural being has powers to resurrected, I don't know, you believe that he does have the power to perform miracles. So why don't you tell us, does your false god Satan have in his bag or under his magical hat, the power to perform resurrections as one of his miracles?
WJ, you said, “It is your teaching that God is an unjust God that brings evil and curses on the upright and obedient.”
Blessing and cursing by God is surely one of those things that is hard to understand, just ask dear sister Mandy.
In Deuteronomy we learn that God will not only curse the Israelites if they sin, but also He will curse their children by their parents sins.
All diseases come from God. The original infliction was given to a sinner, but now thousands of years later all around the world people suffer from those disease being passed down through our genes. We are all in this together. What we do and when we sin it has a negative affect on other people. This should move us to be better people.
The innocent reap up curses that God put forth on other people, that is just a fact of life.
Hi Jodi,
Certainly Satan is a talented mimic and illusionist.
Some folk even think he does not exist.Jodi……Amen sister…..WJ doesn't believe scripture where It say in Job, that Jobs friends comforted him over all the (EVIL) He (GOD) brought on Him (JOB). He like wise thinks that God had some kind of Bet going on with Satan , nothing could be further from the truth. God was using Evil to bring about what Job need to correct His thinking. He doesn't even realize that it was God who brought the name of Job in the first place not the adversarial Spirit of Evil. Nor does he understand the God knows all things and Knew right from the start what He wanted to bring on and do with Job. He would have us believe that some being of some kind provoked GOD to do what he did. Pure foolishness. But when you believe in doctrines about demons that is what you would naturally think.
These people who teach DOCTRINES OF OR ABOUT DEMONS ARE TOTALLY DECEIVED. They have not come out of the Harlot teachings they are still in the (MYSTERY BABYLON RELIGIONS) mystery (something not understood like demons and devils) Babylon (confusion) religion, (religious beliefs). We are told to come (OUT) of that. or we will recieve of (HER) Plagues (be confused is a plague).
But God be praised He has given some the Spirit to see through those lies.
may God continue to bless you and keep you and give you more understanding of His word.
Love and peace to you and yours Jodi………………….gene
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