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Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 16 2008,17:46) John 12:31
“Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.”John 14:30
“I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.”John 16:8, 11
“And when he [the Holy Spirit] comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment . . . about judgment because the ruler of this world has been condemned.”1 John 3:8
“The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.”Ephesians 1:20-21
“God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right had in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come.”Colossians 1:13-14
“He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”Colossians 2:13-15
“And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses, erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.”Hebrews 2:14-15
“Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death.”Luke 10:18
“See, I have given you authority . . . over all the power of the enemy.”Ephesians 6:11-13
“Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to withstand on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.”2 Corinthians 11:14
“Even Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light.”James 4:7
“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”1 Peter 5:7-11
“Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you. Discipline yourselves, keep alert. Like roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour. Resist him, steadfast in your faith, for you know that your brothers and sisters in all the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering. After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, support, strengthen, and establish you. To him be the power forever and ever. Amen.”
still in denial
DK, what do you mean still in denial?You list all these scriptures which I have already discussed in length, and still you have no scriptural proof that would connect the adversary to a fallen angel.
The bible clearly defines man's and God's adversary as earthly, coming from within man himself.
YOU define the adversary of man and God to be a fallen angel, NOT the scriptures.
Jodi! Job 14:`13 ” For thou said in thy heart, I will ASCEND INTO HEAVEN. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will also sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.”
verse 12 ” How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which did weakened the nations.
Ezek. 28:15 “Till iniquity was found in thee….
Lucifer was created perfect, a beautiful Angel, until He became jealous.
Have you ever wondered why did God create the world in such a void and dark place. The Angels shouted for joy when God created this world. What I believe that the earth was a beautiful place and God put Lucifer on this earth to take care of it. That is only my thinking there is no real prove, only that Lucifer fell from Heaven like lightning. In Job 8:44 it says that He was a murdered from the beginning.
The serpent the devil (Satan) was already on the earth, when God recreated the earth so we could live on it. Then God created us in God's image. I believe He created us so that if we would sin He could destroy us again. He allowed Satan to test all Humankind. God wants only those to be His Sons who can overcome the evil one. Let the mind which was in Jesus be in you. Overcoming is what all should do. Even thou we are under grace, it still gives us no reason to sin. We are not justified, but we still have to ask for forgiveness of our Sins, Christ is our mediator, so we can go directley to the throne of God. In the end He the Devil will get the Lake of Fire along with Antichrist. Death is the last to be destroyed, who caused Death, Satan.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Jodi @ Sep. 08 2008,11:20) Hi David, Satan means adversary and there is not one single scripture that says that the adversary is an evil supernatural being.
Satan is said to be the man who has in mind the things of men.
Revelations 12 shows the old serpent and Satan to be one and the same.Therefore we can conclude that Eve was having a conversation with a human who has in mind the things of humans.
The bible says that it is because of one man that sin came into the world. The bible says that Eve was deceived by the serpent, but the man was not deceived.
Putting these scriptures together it would then have to be true that Adam was the serpent. Adam had in mind the things of men, and he wanted to manipulate Eve and get her to eat the fruit.
Eve in her actions upon hearing the serpent then became a serpent herself, following her own desires.
Adam and Eve were both punished for eating the fruit, and as well the mind of man, the serpent, was punished through being given the conscious awareness of death. For the mind of man clings to it's belly fearing death. The mind's god became its belly, having to eat to survive. We serve our bodies to keep us alive. We need to be serving God however in order to be righteous.
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.Job 2:1
On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
2 And the LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”Of course there is a being called Satan. If Satan is not a being, then Peter doesn't need to be either. Sure names are often names of things like Grace. But Grace still can be a person and grace can be an attribute. Of the person is named after the attribute or characteristic.
The definite article (THE) in Greek helps identify and no article is often used to qualify or describe something.
There is a Devil, there are devils, and there are those who act like the Devil. Devil can be used to describe and it is used of a particular being. Same with Satan.
It isn't difficult to grasp. Personalities are often named after a characteristic. This neither nullifies the use of words as a name or a description.
Emanual is a person, it also has a meaning. Michael is an angel, and Michael has a meaning too.
It's not rocket science it is simply the way language is used. You can identify or qualify something with the same word. In Greek the definite article “THE” usually determines which. i.e., THE THEOS or theos.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2008,20:28) Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 08 2008,11:20) Hi David, Satan means adversary and there is not one single scripture that says that the adversary is an evil supernatural being.
Satan is said to be the man who has in mind the things of men.
Revelations 12 shows the old serpent and Satan to be one and the same.Therefore we can conclude that Eve was having a conversation with a human who has in mind the things of humans.
The bible says that it is because of one man that sin came into the world. The bible says that Eve was deceived by the serpent, but the man was not deceived.
Putting these scriptures together it would then have to be true that Adam was the serpent. Adam had in mind the things of men, and he wanted to manipulate Eve and get her to eat the fruit.
Eve in her actions upon hearing the serpent then became a serpent herself, following her own desires.
Adam and Eve were both punished for eating the fruit, and as well the mind of man, the serpent, was punished through being given the conscious awareness of death. For the mind of man clings to it's belly fearing death. The mind's god became its belly, having to eat to survive. We serve our bodies to keep us alive. We need to be serving God however in order to be righteous.
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.Job 2:1
On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
2 And the LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”Of course there is a being called Satan. If Satan is not a being, then Peter doesn't need to be either. Sure names are often names of things like Grace. But Grace still can be a person and grace can be an attribute. Of the person is named after the attribute or characteristic.
The definite article (THE) in Greek helps identify and no article is often used to qualify or describe something.
There is a Devil, there are devils, and there are those who act like the Devil. Devil can be used to describe and it is used of a particular being. Same with Satan.
It isn't difficult to grasp. Personalities are often named after a characteristic. This neither nullifies the use of words as a name or a description.
Emanual is a person, it also has a meaning. Michael is an angel, and Michael has a meaning too.
It's not rocket science it is simply the way language is used. You can identify or qualify something with the same word. In Greek the definite article “THE” usually determines which. i.e., THE THEOS or theos.
exactlyQuote (Jodi @ Sep. 17 2008,16:21) Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 16 2008,19:24) 
Gene..cmon..you mean to tell these verses describe our “carnal minds” talking6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD
DK,Satan is the general word for adversary, it does not represent in the bible as one specific person. Anyone or anything that is in opposition to something or someone else is a Satan.
In the book of Job, Job's adversary does not appose God, but questions Job's faithfulness to God.
YOu did not answer the question…who is Job's advesary?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,14:04) GB,
Did Jesus see carnal natures falling from heaven?
If you believed Jesus you would not need to add your rationalisations.
You really ought not align your master's teaching with paganism.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,14:04) Did Jesus see carnal natures falling from heaven? 
Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 17 2008,05:18) Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 17 2008,16:21) Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 16 2008,19:24) Gene..cmon..you mean to tell these verses describe our “carnal minds” talking6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD
DK,Satan is the general word for adversary, it does not represent in the bible as one specific person. Anyone or anything that is in opposition to something or someone else is a Satan.
In the book of Job, Job's adversary does not appose God, but questions Job's faithfulness to God.
YOu did not answer the question…who is Job's advesary?
Sorry DK, I didn't specifically answer it there because I answered it previously a few posts ago. I guess you missed it.Let's back up just a minute before Job.
God's Angels are adversaries (!tX) to people
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (!tX) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand(!tX) thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
Men are adversaries (!tX) to people.
1Sa 29:4 And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary (!tX) to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries (!tX) unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?
Ps 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries (!tX); because I follow the thing that good is.
Ps 71:13 Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries (!tX) to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt.
Ps 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries (!tX): but I give myself unto prayer.
Ps 109:20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries (!tX) from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Ps 109:29 Let mine adversaries(!tX) be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
Once again God's angels are adversaries to people
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (!tX) also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan (!tX), “From where do you come?” So Satan(!tX) answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan (!tX), “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan (!tX) answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
Zechariah 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD. 5 Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for ever? 6 But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us.
7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying, 8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white. 9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. 10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest. 12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? 13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words. 14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. 15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: f
or, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan(!tX), The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan(!tX); even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
The adversary was seen at the right hand of Joshua when the angel of mercy had come, because that was the adversary's God appointed position.
God decided to give Israel mercy, so He was telling His angel that they were now going to cease from the indignation.
There seems to be a separation of duties between certain angels of God, ones who at times watch over and protect, and others who watch over and discipline. The later are known to the people as adversaries.
Man's true adversary however is himself, and if man was not an adversary to himself and other people, then the angel adversaries would not be needed to do their work.
Mr 1:13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.
James 1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, 15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
Jesus was tempted in the same manner we are all tempted by our own desires, except he did not let his desires lead him away from the will of God. Even though Jesus was very hungry and had God's power to produce food from stones his desire for food did not lead him to use God's powers for his own purpose.
The adversary of Jesus was the old serpent that tempted Eve.
Eve saw the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge looked good and because of her OWN desire for wisdom she questioned what she was told and delusions came through her own mind that she would not die but that she would become wise.
Why did Eve disobey? Her own desires led her mind into deception. The serpent, the Satan (adversary), the devil (liar) led her to sin.
Her desire created the dialogue in her head of which falsely accused God of being a liar and the deception that the fruit could make her wise. The serpent was her desire that coupled with her ignorance and inexperience that led to delusions within her mind as to the truth.
Galatians 5:16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete; 17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will — these ye may not do; 18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law. 19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, 21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.
The ENEMY that is against God's Spirit is NOT a celestial being. Celestial beings are not said to anywhere in the bible cause us to commit idolatry, murders, whoredom, ect..
What the bible clearly says is that it is the desires in our flesh that is contrary to God's Spirit.
The desires that can lead us to do evil, if we choose to follow them, come from OUR FLESH.
This is what the bible says people. What the bible does not say is that the desires for us to commit sins come from the influence of celestial beings.
So whatever scripture you are reading whether it talks about spirits of the air or an adversary falling from heaven, you need to take away your tradition and stop using it to understand the scriptures, and START using what the bible says.
If the bible says that our minds are at enmity with God, if the bible says that our flesh is contrary to God's Spirit because it's desires can lead it away, then clearly when we read of an adversary, then that is the identity behind the adversary.
You cannot make the identity of an adversary for that which is not defined in the bible, but which comes from a story made up of poor interpretations from the bible. Even worse you cannot define the adversary in a manner that ultimately mirrors those of false gods, of which YHWH specifically warned people against.
Adversary or devil in the New Testament either stand for the desires themselves or a person, group, nation, etc, that is acting upon the leadership of those desires.
Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Jesus cut off the flesh, he did not cut off the celestial influence to our flesh, he cut off the flesh itself. This was the forshadow of the law of circumcision.
It is the flesh against the Spirit, it is NOT the influence of celestial beings on the flesh against the Spirit.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
Ro 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
The desires IN the Flesh influence the mind to sin. Not celestial beings convince the mind to follow the desires in the flesh.
Did it take a celestial being to make Eve want to be wise? Did it take a celestial being to make the fruit look good? No, it was Eve's natural instincts that caused her desires, and then her carnal mind with its ignorance and lack of experience worked over those desires to create deception.
To follow the wicked one, to follow the prince of this world would be to follow the body of the sins of the flesh.
The Great Dragon in Revelation does not represent kings who are under the influence of celestial beings, they are kings who are not circumcised by the circumcision of Christ.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–is not of the Father but is of the world.
What is IN the world is NOT some celestial evil force causing man to follow his flesh. We don't need something to cause us to be drawn to ourselves, that defies the laws of nature of which YHWH established. What is IN the world is MAN and man's pride and man's lusts.
What is not in the world is the non biblical story of an angel who with the gift of immortality and the honor of dwelling in God's presence supposedly became filled with pride and lusted after God's position.
This is exactly why when we look at the evil in the world today it is rather matter of fact and completely obvious as to its cause, which is man following his lustful desires of which came from within himself do to his nature. This is why man when being evil is referred to as being an animal or a beast.
Hi Jodi,
Yes you have worked hard to justify every alternative interpretation but the simple one.
By the way I forgot to say that Jb 1-2 shows Satan also can influence the weather.Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 18 2008,07:29) Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 17 2008,05:18) Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 17 2008,16:21) Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 16 2008,19:24) Gene..cmon..you mean to tell these verses describe our “carnal minds” talking6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD
DK,Satan is the general word for adversary, it does not represent in the bible as one specific person. Anyone or anything that is in opposition to something or someone else is a Satan.
In the book of Job, Job's adversary does not appose God, but questions Job's faithfulness to God.
YOu did not answer the question…who is Job's advesary?
Sorry DK, I didn't specifically answer it there because I answered it previously a few posts ago. I guess you missed it.Let's back up just a minute before Job.
God's Angels are adversaries (!tX) to people
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (!tX) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand(!tX) thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
Men are adversaries (!tX) to people.
1Sa 29:4 And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary (!tX) to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries (!tX) unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?
Ps 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries (!tX); because I follow the thing that good is.
Ps 71:13 Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries (!tX) to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt.
Ps 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries (!tX): but I give myself unto prayer.
Ps 109:20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries (!tX) from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Ps 109:29 Let mine adversaries(!tX) be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
Once again God's angels are adversaries to people
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (!tX) also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan (!tX), “From where do you come?” So Satan(!tX) answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan (!tX), “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan (!tX) answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
Zechariah 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD. 5 Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for ever? 6 But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us.
7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying, 8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white. 9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. 10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest. 12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? 13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words. 14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. 15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. 16 Therefore thus sait
h the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan(!tX), The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan(!tX); even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
The adversary was seen at the right hand of Joshua when the angel of mercy had come, because that was the adversary's God appointed position.
God decided to give Israel mercy, so He was telling His angel that they were now going to cease from the indignation.
There seems to be a separation of duties between certain angels of God, ones who at times watch over and protect, and others who watch over and discipline. The later are known to the people as adversaries.
Man's true adversary however is himself, and if man was not an adversary to himself and other people, then the angel adversaries would not be needed to do their work.
Mr 1:13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.
James 1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, 15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
Jesus was tempted in the same manner we are all tempted by our own desires, except he did not let his desires lead him away from the will of God. Even though Jesus was very hungry and had God's power to produce food from stones his desire for food did not lead him to use God's powers for his own purpose.
The adversary of Jesus was the old serpent that tempted Eve.
Eve saw the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge looked good and because of her OWN desire for wisdom she questioned what she was told and delusions came through her own mind that she would not die but that she would become wise.
Why did Eve disobey? Her own desires led her mind into deception. The serpent, the Satan (adversary), the devil (liar) led her to sin.
Her desire created the dialogue in her head of which falsely accused God of being a liar and the deception that the fruit could make her wise. The serpent was her desire that coupled with her ignorance and inexperience that led to delusions within her mind as to the truth.
Galatians 5:16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete; 17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will — these ye may not do; 18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law. 19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, 21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.
The ENEMY that is against God's Spirit is NOT a celestial being. Celestial beings are not said to anywhere in the bible cause us to commit idolatry, murders, whoredom, ect..
What the bible clearly says is that it is the desires in our flesh that is contrary to God's Spirit.
The desires that can lead us to do evil, if we choose to follow them, come from OUR FLESH.
This is what the bible says people. What the bible does not say is that the desires for us to commit sins come from the influence of celestial beings.
So whatever scripture you are reading whether it talks about spirits of the air or an adversary falling from heaven, you need to take away your tradition and stop using it to understand the scriptures, and START using what the bible says.
If the bible says that our minds are at enmity with God, if the bible says that our flesh is contrary to God's Spirit because it's desires can lead it away, then clearly when we read of an adversary, then that is the identity behind the adversary.
You cannot make the identity of an adversary for that which is not defined in the bible, but which comes from a story made up of poor interpretations from the bible. Even worse you cannot define the adversary in a manner that ultimately mirrors those of false gods, of which YHWH specifically warned people against.
Adversary or devil in the New Testament either stand for the desires themselves or a person, group, nation, etc, that is acting upon the leadership of those desires.
Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Jesus cut off the flesh, he did not cut off the celestial influence to our flesh, he cut off the flesh itself. This was the forshadow of the law of circumcision.
It is the flesh against the Spirit, it is NOT the influence of celestial beings on the flesh against the Spirit.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
Ro 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
The desires IN the Flesh influence the mind to sin. Not celestial beings convince the mind to follow the desires in the flesh.
Did it take a celestial being to make Eve want to be wise? Did it take a celestial being to make the fruit look good? No, it was Eve's natural instincts that caused her desires, and then her carnal mind with its ignorance and lack of experience worked over those desires to create deception.
To follow the wicked one, to follow the prince of this world would be to follow the body of the sins of the flesh.
The Great Dragon in Revelation does not represent kings who are under the influence of celestial beings, they are kings who are not circumcised by the circumcision of Christ.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–is not of the Father but is of the world.
What is IN the world is NOT some celestial evil force causing man to follow his flesh. We don't need something to cause us to be drawn to ourselves, that defies the laws of nature of which YHWH established. What is IN the world is MAN and man's pride and man's lusts.
What is not in the world is the non biblical story of an angel who with the gift of immortality and the honor of dwelling in God's presence supposedly became filled with pride and lusted after God's position.
This is exactly why when we look at the evil in the world today it is rather matter of fact and completely obvious as to its cause, which is man following his lustful desires of which came from within himself do to his nature. This is why man when being evil is referred to as being an animal or a beast.
Ok..so you are saying that one of God's angels was who entered among the sons of God and spoke with him?(i'm referencing this)
6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back
and forth in it.”8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORDIt is made very clear that Satan was Lucifer who sinned and then became Satan, the devil, or whatever other name you want to call him. But it is not just in the mind of Humans. He is a Spirit being, like all other Angels are. He just became bad, along with 1/3 of all other Angels that went with him.
IreneDK…..an adversarial spirit can be misunderstood as a person or being as pagans have did for centuries, they attach a being to what is really a attribute or Spiritual intellect. If you can try to realize all good and all evil has always existing , good spiritual intellect , and evil spiritual intellect. Do not imagine a person as a separate one of these, but as a container who possesses these intellect in himself. He may have been born totally neutral not good or evil, but in time He is becoming fill with them.
Now with that in mind we then would be containers that can have these poured into us or taken out of us. These good and evil intellect effect and define who we are at any given point in time. If we allow or drink of unclean spirit we will then become unclean intellectually, and how do we do that is by taking it into us through our minds by association with it. we become educated so to speek that way and we are animated by our thoughts then we correspondingly do these things that are unclean. and If we sow or drink of the clean spirit we will also intellectually become clean in our thoughts and live that way also.
These are Spirits (INTELLECTS) they are not beings of any kind only thoughts or intellects. If a man is Carnal Minded he is evil minded and serves the evil intelect that in him but it is not another being or creature jumping in and out of him as PAGANS BELIEVED. IMO
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 18 2008,12:39) DK…..an adversarial spirit can be misunderstood as a person or being as pagans have did for centuries, they attach a being to what is really a attribute or Spiritual intellect. If you can try to realize all good and all evil has always existing , good spiritual intellect , and evil spiritual intellect. Do not imagine a person as a separate one of these, but as a container who possesses these intellect in himself. He may have been born totally neutral not good or evil, but in time He is becoming fill with them. Now with that in mind we then would be containers that can have these poured into us or taken out of us. These good and evil intellect effect and define who we are at any given point in time. If we allow or drink of unclean spirit we will then become unclean intellectually, and how do we do that is by taking it into us through our minds by association with it. we become educated so to speek that way and we are animated by our thoughts then we correspondingly do these things that are unclean. and If we sow or drink of the clean spirit we will also intellectually become clean in our thoughts and live that way also.
These are Spirits (INTELLECTS) they are not beings of any kind only thoughts or intellects. If a man is Carnal Minded he is evil minded and serves the evil intelect that in him but it is not another being or creature jumping in and out of him as PAGANS BELIEVED. IMO
ok..still..my question is who was the advesary that had a conversation with GOD in JOB 1 and 2?DK…..The word adversary simple implies and adversarial spirit or intellect , In fact an adversary at times can be a helper when used by God, for the good of a person as obviously it was used in the case of Job. At the end of the Book of Job, it says GOD had brought all these things on Job not some other being of some kind. And adversary can be God HIMSELF at times, when He is against what man is doing, He takes the form as an adversary.
DK….look at good and evil as Just intellect not persons or beings People can take these good and evil intellect into themselves. And they can leave and reenter and be removed as when Jesus cast them out of a person, God simply removed there influence on the person out of there minds , but seeing that they alway existed and will always exist they are considered to go about in arid places looking for a resting place and the only place evil or good can find rest is in someone. Evil and Good are what animates all things gives it life so to speak. You are alive doing good or alive doing evil but if both were gone you would be dead.
WE are animated by them they are spirits that cause us to move and have our being. Our problem we need a guidance system, we are very much like a ship without a rudder or gyroscope and thats where GOD”S Spirit comes in it is our permanent guidance system it maintains us on course.IMO
peace to you and yours……….gene
GB,
So there are everlasting “free intellects” that are beings and can come and go from people?
So Jesus spoke with these FREE INTELLECTS and they spoke back to him, and he cast them out?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 18 2008,13:36) DK…..The word adversary simple implies and adversarial spirit or intellect , In fact an adversary at times can be a helper when used by God, for the good of a person as obviously it was used in the case of Job. At the end of the Book of Job, it says GOD had brought all these things on Job not some other being of some kind. And adversary can be God HIMSELF at times, when He is against what man is doing, He takes the form as an adversary. DK….look at good and evil as Just intellect not persons or beings People can take these good and evil intellect into themselves. And they can leave and reenter and be removed as when Jesus cast them out of a person, God simply removed there influence on the person out of there minds , but seeing that they alway existed and will always exist they are considered to go about in arid places looking for a resting place and the only place evil or good can find rest is in someone. Evil and Good are what animates all things gives it life so to speak. You are alive doing good or alive doing evil but if both were gone you would be dead.
WE are animated by them they are spirits that cause us to move and have our being. Our problem we need a guidance system, we are very much like a ship without a rudder or gyroscope and thats where GOD”S Spirit comes in it is our permanent guidance system it maintains us on course.IMO
peace to you and yours……….gene
ok..still…who was speaking with GOD here?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 18 2008,13:40) GB,
So there are everlasting “free intellects” that are beings and can come and go from people?
So Jesus spoke with these FREE INTELLECTS and they spoke back to him, and he cast them out?GB,
It just seems strange that what scripture calls demons, evil spirits, unclean spirits you needed to add another name to FREE INTELLECTS?
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