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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 05 2008,11:21) Hi Jodi,
The Jews are the adversary?
What antisemetism is this?No it is in HEAVENLY places where the true enemies are found, not among FLESH and BLOOD.
What the Hell is wrong with you Nick!!I am tired of you twisting my words, your one sick man, and you are ticking me off!!
Am I talking about Jews in general, Hell no!
Am I talking about the Jews that beat Paul and put him in prison, DUH. The adversaries were the men that were going to persecute and who did persecute the Christians.
I am talking about a specific group of Jews at that particular time, the Jews that were not heading to the words of God, but were following after their own minds and traditions.
But YOU KNOW that don't you, you just have nothing intelligent to add to support your opinion that just continues to look weaker and weaker because you lack scriptural support and understanding for your position. You are left to act as a devil and slant people's words and try and confuse what they say.
In my opinion Nick, you are one pathetic egotistical little man.
So Nick your saying that it was little red devils with wings hanging around in the sky that beat, burned, tortured and hung Christians? Yah that makes a lot of sense.
Hi Jodi.
“Those Jews in their heavenly places where false accusing the followers of Jesus, they were trying to suppress and lie about God's word. Those Jews represented the Devil and the Adversary of which Christ's early followers were being warned about”Jews in heavenly places?
Jews representing THE ADVERSARY?
Jews representing THE DEVIL?Hi Nick,
First let me apologize for calling you names. I should not let your character bring my own down. So I am sorry for calling you names. I would greatly respect and appreciate it if you could however not put words in my mouth or insinuate things you know not to be true.
So let’s get back to what we were previously talking about and think for a minute. Let’s say the times of today are in a period where the RCC has great authority and has decided to imprison or kill anyone who does not confess the Trinity.
Now WHO is going to pose to be a bigger adversary to me, the persecuting RCC who is coming to drag me away from my house beat me and kill me, or some whispering evil spirit trying to tempt my flesh in ways I can already do myself from my own heart?
HMMM, I think that me and my fellow non Trinitarians would be more inclined to pin name the RCC Satan or Devil, then we would some spirit being that we can neither see or hear, and whom we have no idea when or how and in what way influences us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Those hating the word of God came and displaced those that did, doing one of several things to them, driving them out of their homes and out of the city leaving them homeless without food or clothes, or they put them in prison or they killed them.
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Withstand in that evil DAY, what day do you suppose Paul is talking about? Could it possibly be the day in which a person faced persecution??
Do we know of a Day that a red devil with horns and wings decided to swoop down from the sky, in which it would be necessary for a person to put the whole armour of God on?
We certainly do know of days where Christians were tested in God’s faith and died by the hands of people in high positions who had great authority and power, who’s hearts and spirits were wicked.
I am sure there were also Christians who failed the test because they had no root to withstand.
Matthew 13:20 `And that sown on the rocky places, this is he who is hearing the word, and immediately with joy is receiving it, 21 and he hath not root in himself, but is temporary, and persecution or tribulation having happened because of the word, immediately he is stumbled.
Jesus himself had to stand up against the wiles of the devil.
Luke 20:20 And, having watched [him], they sent forth liers in wait, feigning themselves to be righteous, that they might take hold of his word, to deliver him up to the rule and to the authority of the governor,……………………… 23 And he, having perceived their craftiness, said unto them, `Why me do ye tempt?
Ephesians 6:12 uses the term ‘heavenly places’, I used the King James translation which rendered the word high places.
Some of the Jewish priests were referred to as chief priests or high priests. This is because they were appointed as the heavenly priests on earth and were given much authority. Where did they dwell, the heavenly temple of course. There is no reference to some sort of authoritative evil kingdom in the sky where wicked beings come down and without our knowing it get us to turn away from the word of God.
Ac 26:10This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.
Re 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
What better scripture to prove my point. The devil is directly referred to here as those which are putting Christians in prison.
Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 05 2008,11:50) Oh and as too why my family stayed in the house after things started happening..its called being…poor and black in the deep south during the height of segregation…or simply put..my grandparents could not afford to move 11 people…
Hi DK,Thanks for clarify some things, I mean to give you and your family no disrespect.
It seems obvious that you believe that there is some sort of evil spiritual force existing over that house, you'll have to forgive me however for being very skeptical.
I am sorry I hope this does not seem like a stupid question, but do you know if your Grandfather checked to see if there was a hole within the closest? It just seems like a likely cause to the shredded clothes would be from an animal getting in and doing it.
I would like to mention once again my point, that not only in the bible but also in reality, I fail to see an example of the existence of supernatural forces causing, or influencing people to sin.
I am waiting for someone to give me a specific example of how a supernatural creature created by God that has turned evil is influencing man today. I think the problem is no one can give a specific because the example could just as well be argued as coming from within the man's own sinful nature.
One thing that David said that has stuck to my mind is that his understanding of Satan is that even though he can influence us without us knowing it we are still responsible for allowing that influence to cause us to sin. If we think about David's own words, then we see then from his perspective that man is still the one to be identified as CAUSING the evil. If we cannot blame this Satan of his, then it is strictly US that is bringing on the evil, and therefore it is strictly US then that is the RULER of this world.
Are you getting that people? David basically said that by his definition of Satan, Satin is just another influence in our lives that causes us to sin but ultimately we are the cause to the sin. Therefore his Satan really has no power, we are strictly to blame for the evil. We are then the living beings in control of the worlds evil, Satan is just a mere influence to the evil of which we create.
When we continue to think about this doctrine of an evil celestial world, more and more things just don't add up.
Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 06 2008,07:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 05 2008,11:21) Hi Jodi,
The Jews are the adversary?
What antisemetism is this?No it is in HEAVENLY places where the true enemies are found, not among FLESH and BLOOD.
What the Hell is wrong with you Nick!!I am tired of you twisting my words, your one sick man, and you are ticking me off!!
Am I talking about Jews in general, Hell no!
Am I talking about the Jews that beat Paul and put him in prison, DUH. The adversaries were the men that were going to persecute and who did persecute the Christians.
I am talking about a specific group of Jews at that particular time, the Jews that were not heading to the words of God, but were following after their own minds and traditions.
But YOU KNOW that don't you, you just have nothing intelligent to add to support your opinion that just continues to look weaker and weaker because you lack scriptural support and understanding for your position. You are left to act as a devil and slant people's words and try and confuse what they say.
In my opinion Nick, you are one pathetic egotistical little man.
So Nick your saying that it was little red devils with wings hanging around in the sky that beat, burned, tortured and hung Christians? Yah that makes a lot of sense.
Jodi….Jesus told us to have salt in our selves and what you said is true, I don't think Nick realizes what SPIRIT he is from. His continual misrepresenting what a person says and means is proof of this. What you have posted is correct and i do agree with them. Jesus even said those Jews were of their Father the devil.love and peace to you and yours………….gene
thanks GB,
The same was said of our master.
We can expect no better from the opinions of natural men.
However you should support Jesus and the apostles and prophets ahead of your modern experts.
That would be good fruit.Nick……..So my opinions and Jodi's and Newton's are of a natural mind then , then please tell us what your (OPINIONS) are then. Again you condemning and accusing words are from what kind of Spirit? When you can't support you position on a discussion, you immediately began to accuse a person of being (WORLDLY) or of (HUMAN LOGIC) or of a (NATURAL MIND) this only show me your ignorance about what being discussed and you (CONDEMNING NATURE). What Spirit is that from NICK?
GB,
You have claimed against scripture that no spiritual adversaries exist so your accusations are invalid.
Surely if you were of Christ you would raise his teachings from God above Newtons?Nick…….when did i (EVER SAY) there are no ADVERSARIAL SPIRITS or when did NEWTON or JODI say that? Sure there are adversarial spirits, that was never the question so why are you trying to make it be then.? The question being discussed is, are there Devils and Demon and SATAN (BEINGS) going around jumping in and out of People, Not dose evil spirit exist. Again you are to much in a rush to condemn and not really looking at what is posted. We have pointed out they do exist in the minds of men, but are not Separate Beings going around jumping in and out of people at their own discretions. You need to stop twisting up what people are saying and look closer at what they actually are saying, before you commit. IMO
GB,
Jesus spoke of such evil spirits that are cast out of men and may return there, and I think we should believe him no matter the opinion of eminent scientists and intellectuals.Quote One thing that David said that has stuck to my mind is that his understanding of Satan is that even though he can influence us without us knowing it we are still responsible for allowing that influence to cause us to sin. If we think about David's own words, then we see then from his perspective that man is still the one to be identified as CAUSING the evil. If we cannot blame this Satan of his, then it is strictly US that is bringing on the evil, and therefore it is strictly US then that is the RULER of this world. Are you getting that people? David basically said that by his definition of Satan, Satin is just another influence in our lives that causes us to sin but ultimately we are the cause to the sin. Therefore his Satan really has no power, we are strictly to blame for the evil.
Quote One thing that David said that has stuck to my mind is that his understanding of Satan is that even though he can influence us without us knowing it we are still responsible for allowing that influence to cause us to sin.
If you were ate at Mcdonald's every day and got really sick, and then tried to sue Mcdonald's, would your lawsuit hold?
They have an amazing advertising campaign. Their burgers hit all the right sensory nerves. But, WE are still responsible for eating the burgers. Does this not make sense?
Now, this doesn't mean they don't SHARE in the guilt. Mcdonald's should know that fat/sugar/salt that they feed people is bad. The truth is, people have tried to sue Mcdonald's for such things. Does this mean that the customers (man) is responsible for causing and bringing about this evil (the deadly but tasty food)?
No, man is the one responsible for actually deciding to put it in their mouths. Yes, advertising and all manner of influence makes us want to eat those burgers. But, we can still reason things out. If we choose not to reason, and just go with what “feels good” or “tastes good” in this case, then we must endure the consequeces.Does this not make sense?
Quote Therefore his Satan really has no power,
That would be like saying Mcdonald's has no power. (since we are ultimately the ones that choose to put that stuff in our mouth.)As it turns out, mcdonald's does have power. As does Satan.
When Eve listened to the serpent (later identified as “the orginal serpant, Satan the Devil” [rev 12]) she was not being forced to listen. She was merely being swayed, influenced. She had the power and intellect to choose otherwise. She had the ability to reason out all the God had given her and ask why God would lie to her? But she went with what felt or actually “looked good” to her.
The fruit looked good. So she ate it.Quote What does the bible tell us specifically that has rule and dominion over us? We are constantly told that we are slaves of sin.
–jodi, page 71
This is an interesting idea. It's quite clever really.
The Bible does say things like “just as SIN RULED AS KING with death…” (Rom 5:21)
So you would take scriptures like this as referring to sin:
JOHN 12:31
“Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.”JOHN 14:30
“I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,”JOHN 16:11
“then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.”I just wonder what you make of scriptures like this:
“Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”–Ephesians 6:11,12Or something like this:
REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”His angels were hurled down with him. What do you make of that.
Quote (david @ Sep. 07 2008,12:35) Quote One thing that David said that has stuck to my mind is that his understanding of Satan is that even though he can influence us without us knowing it we are still responsible for allowing that influence to cause us to sin. If we think about David's own words, then we see then from his perspective that man is still the one to be identified as CAUSING the evil. If we cannot blame this Satan of his, then it is strictly US that is bringing on the evil, and therefore it is strictly US then that is the RULER of this world. Are you getting that people? David basically said that by his definition of Satan, Satin is just another influence in our lives that causes us to sin but ultimately we are the cause to the sin. Therefore his Satan really has no power, we are strictly to blame for the evil.
Quote One thing that David said that has stuck to my mind is that his understanding of Satan is that even though he can influence us without us knowing it we are still responsible for allowing that influence to cause us to sin.
If you were ate at Mcdonald's every day and got really sick, and then tried to sue Mcdonald's, would your lawsuit hold?
They have an amazing advertising campaign. Their burgers hit all the right sensory nerves. But, WE are still responsible for eating the burgers. Does this not make sense?
Now, this doesn't mean they don't SHARE in the guilt. Mcdonald's should know that fat/sugar/salt that they feed people is bad. The truth is, people have tried to sue Mcdonald's for such things. Does this mean that the customers (man) is responsible for causing and bringing about this evil (the deadly but tasty food)?
No, man is the one responsible for actually deciding to put it in their mouths. Yes, advertising and all manner of influence makes us want to eat those burgers. But, we can still reason things out. If we choose not to reason, and just go with what “feels good” or “tastes good” in this case, then we must endure the consequeces.Does this not make sense?
Quote Therefore his Satan really has no power,
That would be like saying Mcdonald's has no power. (since we are ultimately the ones that choose to put that stuff in our mouth.)As it turns out, mcdonald's does have power. As does Satan.
When Eve listened to the serpent (later identified as “the orginal serpant, Satan the Devil” [rev 12]) she was not being forced to listen. She was merely being swayed, influenced. She had the power and intellect to choose otherwise. She had the ability to reason out all the God had given her and ask why God would lie to her? But she went with what felt or actually “looked good” to her.
The fruit looked good. So she ate it.
David you need to give me a direct example of how this Satan of yours, this supernatural being, is influencing us.I am well aware of how man influences man.
When I said that under your perspective this Satan has no power, I wasn't saying he has no power in influencing, I was saying that he does not contain the direct power to cause the evil. You said we are fully responsible for the evil that we create. You said it is our choice, therefore the evil comes from our choices, and therefore we are the RULERS over our choices and therefore we are the evil one, the evil ruler of the world.
Let's talk more about your belief that Satan can influence us without our knowing it. This is why it doesn't make sense to me-
Your not CHOOSING to follow the influence if you don't even know it exists. You cannot choose something that you are completely unaware of can you? Therefore you couldn't be blamed if the influence that you were unaware of affected your choices.
David, I don't see how McDonalds would be partly to blame. They are not the ones making people eat too many burgers. They make a yummy burger that people need to practice using their self control and eat it in moderation. God made sugar, should we then blame God for when we eat too much of it?
Unless Mcdonalds force feeds me too many burgers, they hold no power, my mind holds the power to decide to eat too many. Unless Mcdonalds hypnotizes my mind and has control over it, it is my mind that holds the power. If Mcdonalds did force feed me, or hypnotized me then I would be in no way responsible for eating too man burgers.
David I am sorry but I find your position very illogical.
Quote (david @ Sep. 07 2008,12:35) Quote One thing that David said that has stuck to my mind is that his understanding of Satan is that even though he can influence us without us knowing it we are still responsible for allowing that influence to cause us to sin. If we think about David's own words, then we see then from his perspective that man is still the one to be identified as CAUSING the evil. If we cannot blame this Satan of his, then it is strictly US that is bringing on the evil, and therefore it is strictly US then that is the RULER of this world. Are you getting that people? David basically said that by his definition of Satan, Satin is just another influence in our lives that causes us to sin but ultimately we are the cause to the sin. Therefore his Satan really has no power, we are strictly to blame for the evil.
Quote One thing that David said that has stuck to my mind is that his understanding of Satan is that even though he can influence us without us knowing it we are still responsible for allowing that influence to cause us to sin.
If you were ate at Mcdonald's every day and got really sick, and then tried to sue Mcdonald's, would your lawsuit hold?
They have an amazing advertising campaign. Their burgers hit all the right sensory nerves. But, WE are still responsible for eating the burgers. Does this not make sense?
Now, this doesn't mean they don't SHARE in the guilt. Mcdonald's should know that fat/sugar/salt that they feed people is bad. The truth is, people have tried to sue Mcdonald's for such things. Does this mean that the customers (man) is responsible for causing and bringing about this evil (the deadly but tasty food)?
No, man is the one responsible for actually deciding to put it in their mouths. Yes, advertising and all manner of influence makes us want to eat those burgers. But, we can still reason things out. If we choose not to reason, and just go with what “feels good” or “tastes good” in this case, then we must endure the consequeces.Does this not make sense?
Quote Therefore his Satan really has no power,
That would be like saying Mcdonald's has no power. (since we are ultimately the ones that choose to put that stuff in our mouth.)As it turns out, mcdonald's does have power. As does Satan.
When Eve listened to the serpent (later identified as “the orginal serpant, Satan the Devil” [rev 12]) she was not being forced to listen. She was merely being swayed, influenced. She had the power and intellect to choose otherwise. She had the ability to reason out all the God had given her and ask why God would lie to her? But she went with what felt or actually “looked good” to her.
The fruit looked good. So she ate it.
So David, does God share in the guilt as well for making the apple look good?Hi David,
Satan means adversary and there is not one single scripture that says that the adversary is an evil supernatural being.
Satan is said to be the man who has in mind the things of men.
Revelations 12 shows the old serpent and Satan to be one and the same.Therefore we can conclude that Eve was having a conversation with a human who has in mind the things of humans.
The bible says that it is because of one man that sin came into the world. The bible says that Eve was deceived by the serpent, but the man was not deceived.
Putting these scriptures together it would then have to be true that Adam was the serpent. Adam had in mind the things of men, and he wanted to manipulate Eve and get her to eat the fruit.
Eve in her actions upon hearing the serpent then became a serpent herself, following her own desires.
Adam and Eve were both punished for eating the fruit, and as well the mind of man, the serpent, was punished through being given the conscious awareness of death. For the mind of man clings to it's belly fearing death. The mind's god became its belly, having to eat to survive. We serve our bodies to keep us alive. We need to be serving God however in order to be righteous.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 07 2008,16:06) Hi Jodi,
Who would dare to judge God and by what standards?
Exactly, God is not to blame because the fruit looked good, just like McDonald's is not to blame for making it's burgers look good.
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