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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2006,00:23) Hi,
Zech 3.1
“Then he showed me Joshua, the High Priest, standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
And the Lord said to Satan
'The Lord rebuke you Satan. Indeed the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you…”So how many beings are shown here? Sammo would perhaps say two but there are three.
No, I would say that there were three – but not that one of them was an immortal fallen angel. Look at the historical context in Ezra, and see who Judah's adversaries were.ps – satan is not a name here, as per the link in my previous posts. It should be translated as “the adversary”, which significantly changes the way the passage reads.
Hi sammo,
What you call Satan changes nothing of his nature. Was the angel of the Lord present or was it a human “advocate”according to your church?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,18:20) Hi sammo,
What you call Satan changes nothing of his nature. Was the angel of the Lord present or was it a human “advocate”according to your church?
Hi NickThat's not quite the way we work – there is no 'Christadelphian teaching' on particular verses, because we have no central authority. t8 describes us as a bunch of institutionalised zombies, but I think you'd be surprised how much individual study and free thought goes on in our community. What we do have is a statement of faith – this is what binds us together.
So personally, I guess it was a divine angel present – this is implied by the phrase “angel of the LORD”. But it didn't actually happen did it? Wasn't it just a vision? What's your point?
Hi,
Are visions recorded in scripture not truth?
Do you guess much of your doctrine?
Is your faith the ONE faith spoken of in scripture?
Is it resilient enough to withstand the rains and the floods and the winds
And then able to be justified when you personally face the author of truth Himself?Quote (Sammo @ May 27 2006,08:17) Quote (t8 @ May 26 2006,08:07) To Sammo, Quote (Sammo @ May 26 2006,06:46) How many of your major beliefs have you changed lately, t8?
Not many. One would be that those who belong to denominations serve God less than I initially believed.But I did once fellowship at a number of denominations and I did once believe that God was a Trinity. I even went to a denomination that preached the prosperity thing.
But thank God that I left all of them. I am free now to seek the truth in all things with no false authority to deceive me.
Simply put, I broke out of jail. No angel or human is going to convince me to go back. God by his Spirit led me out.
All of which presupposes that all demoninations are by definition wrong. Which is, frankly, silly.You'll also find that there are lots of people that take the exact opposite route to you; they're absolutely thrilled when they find that they've independantly come to exactly the same conclusions as a particular demonination, and they can't wait to join. This happens all the time in my church.
I think it's important that people realise that your criticisms of demoninations are completely subjective.
To Sammo,The problem is that people may say ooh I like this denomination it really suits me. I like their doctrine, coffee, age group, or woman. But all you have accomplished is division of the Body of Christ and supressed peoples itching ears.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.This is also a huge hurdle for those who are yet to be saved. All they see is all these denominations and think to themselves which one is right, and why do they disagree anyway? They think it's like the lotto, (choosing the right one) and so it becomes a big hurdle in being saved. It's similar to what Jesus said to the Pharisees. They were a stumbing block for those who would enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:Surely any reasonable person can see that God never setup these denominations as they not only compete, but teach contradictory things. Surely a reasonable person can see that the Body of Christ is not any one of these denominations, yet these denominations compete with each other for your loyalty and tithe and they have plenty of customers.
Look at the Newspaper where denominations advertise their church. Come to us, we are a family church, we cater for the young, we minister to gay nazis.
Is that system going to change the world? Does that system promote unity, truth, and the Kingdom of Heaven. Surely the witness that the world sees is no different to the witness they see with competing businesses. “Our prices are lower”, “we have parallel imports”, “we look after the customer”.
How is the system that you promote any different to the world.
It isn't because it is actually part of the world.Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world”.
The truth is that his kingdom is not anything like most people make it out to be. It is not a denomination and never will be. So why promote a denomination. You are not serving God rather man.
1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.Then again if you don't believe in the existence of the 'evil one' then you are susceptible to his control.
Quote (Sammo @ May 27 2006,17:11) What we do have is a statement of faith – this is what binds us together.
Exactly. Your faith is spelled out before the Spirit and free thought has a chance to lead you into all truth.It's like saying you are free to be led by the Spirt, so long as your conclusions include, “non-existence of Satan (being), and whatever else defines your denomination.
That is as silly as saying you can use this website for free so long as you pay $5.00.
Quote (Sammo @ May 26 2006,22:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,18:20) Hi sammo,
What you call Satan changes nothing of his nature. Was the angel of the Lord present or was it a human “advocate”according to your church?
Hi NickThat's not quite the way we work – there is no 'Christadelphian teaching' on particular verses, because we have no central authority. t8 describes us as a bunch of institutionalised zombies, but I think you'd be surprised how much individual study and free thought goes on in our community. What we do have is a statement of faith – this is what binds us together.
So personally, I guess it was a divine angel present – this is implied by the phrase “angel of the LORD”. But it didn't actually happen did it? Wasn't it just a vision? What's your point?
Hi sammo,
If your church has no central authority then you can know it is not the true Church, whose head is Jesus.Quote 2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.Here are some things people “want to hear”:
“Do your own thing.”
“Find your own way.”Before these false teachers came around, there was an organized group of Jesus followers who were united in thought and purpose.
And there is again today. (mat 13)Then, Satan wisely introduced some human philosophies, which sound remarkably amazingly similar to what he was trying to get eve to believe:
“You can serve God in your own way.”
“You don't need to be a part of God's organization.”
“Do your own thing.”
“Choose for yourself what is good and bad.”These are things people wish to hear. I can choose the ideas “I” like, the ones that suit “me.” God will show them to me. Is it God, or is it “you”?
And if two people should happen to agree, they must be wrong.
There's an infinity of different belief systems established by people–(I believe this and this and this.) If you look around and can't find anyone anywhere who believes just as you do, what are the chances that you are on the right path? Are you the only one? Highly doubtful.
If you have forsaken the gathering of youselves together, what does that mean? (Heb 10:34)
If you are not part of “the whole assocation of brothers,” what does that mean? (1 Pet 2:17)It's very easy to dismiss someone's beliefs because they are too tall, or not tall enough.
It always disturbs me when someone does this.
“You don't believe the trinity”? Well you're from New Zealand, so obviously you're wrong. I'm going to dismiss what you say, rather than discussing scripture.
If their beliefs are not Bible based use Scripture to show them. Do not attack them on other points. To do so only shows your weakness and inabilities. And how will they react to this attack? Will they say: “Oh, you're right, what was I thinking?” No. So what purpose does it serve? It's the easiest way to shrug off beliefs that we are not willing to consider. So, we label them “wrong” in everything. It's easy. Almost as easy as doing your own thing and finding your own way.david
Hi david,
If some came here and stated that they are Mormons, what would that tell you?
Surely it would say that their faith is based on the teachings of the Mormon assembly.
They expose their wrong foundation for all to look at, and they deny that it is based on the only sure foundation written in scripture.
Is that not a matter that deserves to be debated in the hope of setting them free?
Would it also say anything about their openness and willingness to learn?There are some who come here only to learn the weak points of their beliefs, not so they can consider changing them, but that they may learn to bolster them and better defend them.
Who are they serving?
To david,
Quote Before these false teachers came around, there was an organized group of Jesus followers who were united in thought and purpose.
And there is again today. (mat 13)Correct, and they were not called Jehovah Witnesses. They were and are the Body of Christ. Are you part of that body, or the JW body?
Quote
Then, Satan wisely introduced some human philosophies, which sound remarkably amazingly similar to what he was trying to get eve to believe:
“You can serve God in your own way.”
“You don't need to be a part of God's organization.”
“Do your own thing.”
“Choose for yourself what is good and bad.”Each denomination is an attempt to serve God in their own way and to heap teachers to themselves that satisfy their itching ears.
You are correct that we must do it God's way. i.e., we must be seperate to the world and be part of the Body of Christ. This is one of the main themes that is encouraged here.
God unites us by his Spirit. Not by a denomination and not by a made up name. We are united in Jesus name. We are united in God's Spirit. This is what we teach. Anything contradictory to these simple truths are of the Evil One.
I have an interesting question:
T8, would you consider yourself to be a witness of Jehovah, in the Biblical sense, not meaning that you believe as Jehovah's Witnesses do?
Quote (t8 @ May 27 2006,01:31) Quote (Sammo @ May 27 2006,17:11) What we do have is a statement of faith – this is what binds us together.
Exactly. Your faith is spelled out before the Spirit and free thought has a chance to lead you into all truth.It's like saying you are free to be led by the Spirt, so long as your conclusions include, “non-existence of Satan (being), and whatever else defines your denomination.
That is as silly as saying you can use this website for free so long as you pay $5.00.
Again – you can't get over your prejudice that all demoninations are by definition wrong. I didn't have to accept the faith that was 'spelled out' to me. But after a lot of Bible study and prayer, I decided to. Therefore I'm in the wrong because I believe something that someone else believed first?————
You and Nick also portray members of demoninations as insincere, and only wanting to please other men, and not God. This is a reasonably offensive and very false accusation.
————
You say that your beliefs are guided by the Spirit. You probably would have whilst you were a trinitiarian too. So do those who believe entirely different things to you. So saying that your beliefs are guided by the spirits counts for absolutely nothing, yet you keep doing it, as if it's some kind of gold standard. It's not.
————
You don't seem to be able to get over the fact that it's possible for a man to say something, based on God's word, that is true. (Unless you're prepared to concede that every word that comes out of your mouth, as a man, is necessarily wrong.) But if that man decides to make up a name and start a church, watch out! Every word he speaks is a lie!
Paul was a preacher. Boy-oh-boy, I hope no one listened to him. Imagine if they listened to a man, instead of waiting to be guided by the Spirit? In fact, I'm a bit upset about the articles and answers to questions that you've written on the main home page. After all, there's a chance that someone could read something a man had written, that could influence their faith, instead of waiting for the Spirit to guide them in a vacuum! Oh no!
Is it really wrong to listen to what someone says, just because they're human? Even if they can demonstrate that what they're saying is based on the Bible? In which case, whether or not one attaches a label to themselves (and a becomes a denomination
), all that matters is whether or not he/she can prove that their beliefs are from God's word. Whether or not you belong to a denomination is completely insignificant.————
This entire discussion about denominations is actually ridiculous, and I'm going to leave it here. Sorry that some of this post was a little sarcastic, but it helps me make my point.
Quote Therefore I'm in the wrong because I believe something that someone else believed first?
Yes, absolutely sammo. This seems to be their reasoning. And since they all have very distinctive beliefs that don't match up with anyone else, they will never be guilty of believing just as someone else believed.Quote So saying that your beliefs are guided by the spirits counts for absolutely nothing, yet you keep doing it, as if it's some kind of gold standard. It's not.
Another good point.Quote Paul was a preacher. Boy-oh-boy, I hope no one listened to him. Imagine if they listened to a man, instead of waiting to be guided by the Spirit?
Just imagineHi sammo and david,
You can find a verse that says
“There is no God”
There is such a thing as truth and it is found in the bible and it includes the information that there is an adversary
and an archangel called Michael
and a Messiah called Jesus Christ.Quote There is such a thing as truth and it is found in the bible and it includes the information that there is an adversary
and an archangel called Michael
and a Messiah called Jesus Christ.Ya, I agree. There is someone who is called Satan
and the Devil
and there's someone who is called Michael “the” archangel
and Christ Jesus.But does your comment to sammo and I have anything to do with what Sammo or I just said.
Quote You can find a verse that says
“There is no God”
hmmm. I found 14, although I believed you were referring to Ps 10:4 before I checked.
Of course, many of those verses say things like “there is not God like you,” or similar things. This is why it's so important to step back a little. If you only see those 4 words, you miss the meaning. If you only look at one scripture or parable and abandon the rest of the Bible, you have lost the meaning. What does the Bible say as a whole? is a good question.
As Sammo says, simply saying you are guided by the spirit would seem to mean very little in light of the fact that many believe so who are not. (mat 7) “By their fruits you will recognize those men.” How? How will you recognize those men?
“By this all will know that you are my disciples,” said Jesus, “if you have love among yourselves.”Anyway, Nick, I was wanting to ask you the same question as I asked T8:
“would you consider yourself to be a witness of Jehovah, in the Biblical sense, not meaning that you believe as Jehovah's Witnesses do?”just curious.
david
Quote Hi david,
Was Christ just a witness for God?Christ was many things. But note his words:
JOHN 18:37
“For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.””It's definitely one of the reasons he came into the world. Of course, there was the ransom sacrifice.
But Jesus is called the “faithful witness” and the “faithful and true witness.” He was a Witness of his father, Jehovah. As a Christian (follower of Jesus) should we not also be God's witnesses?
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