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Quote The OT warns man time and time again not to believe in false gods and demons because they cannot see, hear or walk and they certainly do not have any powers. –JODI
check verse 26:
MATTHEW 12:25-26
“Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?”And verse 27, JESUS SAYS:
But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons,
Why would Jesus expell something that you say: “cannot see, hear or walk and they certainly do not have any powers.”
WHY WOULD JESUS DO THAT? That sure doesn't make sense.
Also, nowhere does the OT say that as you suggest, about “demons,” that they have no power.
Quote Nick tell me ONE time when I have said that I do not believe in evil spirits. Why must be a devil? I have ALWAYS believed in evil spirits, I just don't believe in YOUR definition of them.
Perhaps, it would help if you'd explian.
Ok..lemme tell you why i KNOW…that satan and his demons exist…hopefully you can tell by now that I am not an untruthful person…so with that said before God I attest that everything I am about to say is true…
I grew in a small town in Florida called Macclenny..population- 20,000.. My mother and her family were raised in this quaint little city…my family on my mothers side has been in this city since the early 1920's…ok…lemme me get to the meat of the story..
My mother along with her siblings and mother/ father moved into the house I know as my grandparents house in the early 1950's…upon moving into this house strange things started to occur..the first thing that happened involved my grandfather…In my grandparents room they had a stand alone closet that stood on four feet…in otherwords the closet was not built into the wall..well my grandfather worked “puckwood”..aka he was a lumberjack..well he would get up around 4:30 am every morning and get ready to leave for work…well one morning shortly after they moved into the house he got up to get dressed for work…well upon opening the closet he found his work clothes shredded into pieces..
Well you know what he did…he woke up everyone in the house to see who had cut up his clothes…well of course all the kids denied it….therefore he promptly gave everyone a spanking since no one would admit to it…well a couple days later the same thing happened again…again he woke up the house…and again no one admitted to it…instead of spanking everyone he said that he was going to lock his closet and sleep with the key on his necklace…that way he would be able to determine if the kids were indeed doing it…WELL WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED…yep you got it..
The next morning he woke up and all of his work clothes were shredded…and yes the key was still around his neck…suffice it to say…from that point on..all hell broke loose in the house…Ok..to keep from this turning into a novel..i will give you a bulleted list of common occurences in the house
-faces in the wall
-voices calling your name
-doors being marked upped and scratched
-spirits manifesting themselves as dogs, snakes, “devils, old women,
-people being choked
-covers being snatched off of people
-faces being caressed
-items moving and flying across the room
-items on the back porch being thrown about
-constant footsteps when nobody is there
-walls shaking
….and so onI personally have experienced the “footsteps” many times.. and just for the record this has not only happened to just family but also to friends and visitors of the family..these things occur right up until this day…
My Uncle who lives in the house now that my grandparents have passed says he regularly… sees ominous figures…hears voices..footsteps..just recently he said upon emerging from the shower there was a dog-like creaturem on the dining room table that growled at him then jumped down and disappeared under the table…my mother just recently says she was sitting up there by herself waiting for my uncle and father to return when she heard loud footsteps in the back of the house…and they continued for about 20 mins and then stopped when she called on God's name…
Just so we are clear…the people who grew up in that house are now…nurses, hospital administrators, pastors, wood craftsmen, teachers, lawyers, and so on…i say this just to show you that my family aren't wack jobs…they are normal people who represent every level of the socioeconomic scale..I myself am a teacher who now runs his own business…I am a state certified teacher with dual degress in Entertainment Business and Recording Arts/ Music Theory
I literally could tell you hundreds of things that happened in that house!!!!
To sum up…I deduced rather quickly that…if their are evil spirit beings…there are obviously Good ones…AKA IF THE DEVIL AND HIS DEMONS ARE REAL…I KNOW GOD AND HIS SON ARE…
DK……..in the thousands of years of these so-call experiences why is there no documentation of these things by two or more witness watching as these things take place then,why has no one really showed the taking place on video cameras with witness . The human mind is capable of great imagination and through. I know God could cause something like that to happen but as for some self motivated entity or devil being i have my doubts, I am 67 years old and i never heard or saw things that did not have an explanation attached to it. People hear cracks or noises in houses all the time from settlements of earth and wind and other things can cause them to creak. I would have to see absolute proof before i would ever believe in those things. It interesting to me that no one seems to be seeing these things happening with whiteness or take pictures of them it alway based on a metaphysical experience of some kind. interesting. You would think that by now there would be all kind of proof after 6000 year of mans earth history. But still no absolute proof. The mind of man is capable of all kinds of imagination and illusions. This has been proven many, many times.In fact thats why God did not want people to indulge in divination of any kind.
peace…………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2008,12:51) DK……..in the thousands of years of these so-call experiences why is there no documentation of these things by two or more witness watching as these things take place then,why has no one really showed the taking place on video cameras with witness . The human mind is capable of great imagination and through. I know God could cause something like that to happen but as for some self motivated entity or devil being i have my doubts, I am 67 years old and i never heard or saw things that did not have an explanation attached to it. People hear cracks or noises in houses all the time from settlements of earth and wind and other things can cause them to creak. I would have to see absolute proof before i would ever believe in those things. It interesting to me that no one seems to be seeing these things happening with whiteness or take pictures of them it alway based on a metaphysical experience of some kind. interesting. You would think that by now there would be all kind of proof after 6000 year of mans earth history. But still no absolute proof. The mind of man is capable of all kinds of imagination and illusions. This has been proven many, many times.In fact thats why God did not want people to indulge in divination of any kind. peace…………..gene
I understand your skepticism..but the real question is..why would I lie?
These things have been experienced by over 15 different people..relatives, neighbors, and friends of family..
Just the other day the people that live next door to my grandparents house told me that the lights go on and off all the time when no one's home…I was not surprised tho..other people have told us they see the lights go on and off when no one is their…
And no there is not a problem with the wiring…we had it checked…
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2008,12:51) in the thousands of years of these so-call experiences
That part of your post alone should make you think…In cased you missed the import of what you just said…
Thousands of years of experiences…
reported by thousands and thousands of people….
The real question is what are these people experiencing?
I'm sorry but the things we experienced in that house are exactly similar in nature to things experienced by some in the bible.
Lemme add something interesting to the story that I left out.. Do you know that while these things were taking place in that house..as soon the person being harassed would call on God's name..the manefistation would stop…coincidence? I think not..the reason things continued to happen in the house even after my family coming to Christ has something to do with this scripture I believe:
Matthew 12:43-46
43″When an evil[a] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2008,15:58) Quote The OT warns man time and time again not to believe in false gods and demons because they cannot see, hear or walk and they certainly do not have any powers. –JODI
check verse 26:
MATTHEW 12:25-26
“Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?”And verse 27, JESUS SAYS:
But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons,
Why would Jesus expell something that you say: “cannot see, hear or walk and they certainly do not have any powers.”
WHY WOULD JESUS DO THAT? That sure doesn't make sense.
Also, nowhere does the OT say that as you suggest, about “demons,” that they have no power.
David let me clarify,Jesus was expelling mental illnesses of which came through a divine power, which according to the Greek language was called a demon.
Demons to the Greeks DID NOT represent the same thing that the English word means. Demons were beings that brought both blessings and cursings to people. Demons were known as beings that were greater then humans but lower then their false gods. Plain and simple demons under your definition do not exist, they are the product of pagans who tried to understand the bible from their superstitious point of view.
The Hebrew word for demon was shed and it represented a false existing supernatural creature.
Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.
Psalms 106:37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, And played the harlot by their own deeds.
Here in Revelation we see the Greek word for demon standing for the divine powers that were false.
Re 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood–idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Only YHWH has divine supernatural powers that inflict people with blessings and cursings. This is why He detested so much the worship of false idols.
Deuteronomy 28:18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. 19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. 20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. …….28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
Just what were the idols that were being discussed all through out the Old Testament and especially in Jeremiah?
Jer 10:5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.”
False idols represented gods and demons who were thought to have powers and bring about blessings and cursings to man.
God NEVER says that He and fallen angels, or He and other supernatural beings against Him are the only beings who have the powers to inflict people with madness. God NEVER warned man against evil supernatural beings who had powers the same as Him. He consistently warned the people that He was the only God.
Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2008,16:00) Quote Nick tell me ONE time when I have said that I do not believe in evil spirits. Why must be a devil? I have ALWAYS believed in evil spirits, I just don't believe in YOUR definition of them.
Perhaps, it would help if you'd explian.
David I actually have explained many times. Much of what I have been telling you is from previous posts I have made on this topic.DK…….i am not saying you are lying or any of your relatives are either. But the mind has a powerful imagination and can imagine all kind of things especially if influenced by something , we can early come to believe things that are not real. That how black magic and voodoo dolls and all kind of weird things our minds will just run away with itself.
Once i was walking home when i was a young kid pushing my bike in very dense fog so heave you couldn't hardly tell you were on the road , it was night and my bike had a flat tire. so as i walked along i heard this noise behind me, it sounded like someone was following me with a walking cane, so i began to walk faster and it sounded like the person was walking faster also, so i began to run and the sound just kept getting faster the faster i went the faster is went it sounded like the walking cane was trying to keep up with me So i ran pushing the as fast as i could go and about the time i was almost home it donned on me the noise was made when the valve stem would go around and taping the road I felt so stupid.
You see what i mean, there was a reason for what was happening and it was my mind that created the whole illusion of someone with a walking can after me. Our minds are easily taken by these things , thats why God forbid there beliefs in the bible.
peace………gene
Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2008,15:54) WHO IS THE RULER OF THE WORLD? WHO DID JESUS REFER TO AS THE RULER OF THE WORLD?
WHO?
ANYONE?
HE SAID IT LIKE 3 TIMES.
WHAT WAS HE REFERRING TO?
ANYONE?
I GUESS NOT.
Hi David,If you go back to page 71 and read through my long post, I believe you will find what I believe the answer to your question is.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2008,16:52) DK…….i am not saying you are lying or any of your relatives are either. But the mind has a powerful imagination and can imagine all kind of things especially if influenced by something , we can early come to believe things that are not real. That how black magic and voodoo dolls and all kind of weird things our minds will just run away with itself. Once i was walking home when i was a young kid pushing my bike in very dense fog so heave you couldn't hardly tell you were on the road , it was night and my bike had a flat tire. so as i walked along i heard this noise behind me, it sounded like someone was following me with a walking cane, so i began to walk faster and it sounded like the person was walking faster also, so i began to run and the sound just kept getting faster the faster i went the faster is went it sounded like the walking cane was trying to keep up with me So i ran pushing the as fast as i could go and about the time i was almost home it donned on me the noise was made when the valve stem would go around and taping the road I felt so stupid.
You see what i mean, there was a reason for what was happening and it was my mind that created the whole illusion of someone with a walking can after me. Our minds are easily taken by these things , thats why God forbid there beliefs in the bible.
peace………gene
… Ok..give me a possible explanation for this…
One night my 1st cousin was there alone. She went to the bathroom..when she came out she says that there was a glowing dog sitting on the dining room table. She says she immediately began to scream…she says it growled at her, then jumped off the table..when it hit the floor it turned into a snake and slithered under the table…The year was 1979 or so…
My uncle (also her uncle) had almost the exact same experience last year after moving into the home…
Hi DK,
I am with Gene on this, I am not accusing you of lying, but that is definitely the sort of thing that I would need to see to believe.
One point I would like to make is this though, whatever it is going on in that house it is NOT CAUSING anyone to sin, which is my entire position on this forum, that there are no supernatural beings that influence us to sin.
DK, if this house were to be filled with evil spirits, like you seem to believe, then why the heck does your family still hang out there? Let me guess, its something rather amusing and intriguing to them. They obviously don't seem to FEEL THREATENED, or else they would not stay there.
Are you trying to tell us that your family likes to live amongst what they believe are evil spirits?
Do they go there and pray for them to leave, or do they stay there in hopes that they will see something?
To be honest, since so many of your family members claim to see this, and they continue to flock to this house, from my understanding of the bible, I would have to conclude that God is further allowing their minds to play tricks on them.
DK…..> i am inclined to agree with Jodi on this, if it were so bad i would think your family would leave the house. I know i would have. Our minds are very powerful when it comes to our imaginaries. Suggestions by someone can trigger our imaginations all kind of ways especially when we are young.
peace……..gene
Hi David, I went and pulled some stuff from that previous post I made awhile back that talks about the ruler of this world and added it with some new points.
John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
We were just told that the world will be convicted of sin and judged. Jesus is NOT talking about convicting supernatural beings, he is clearly speaking of human beings. The person of sin is judged.
Ge 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
Sins desire is for you, it wants to RULE OVER YOU!
What does the bible tell us specifically that has rule and dominion over us?
We are told that we are slaves of sin.
Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Pr 25:28 Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls.
What are we told in the bible that causes our spirit to sin?
Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, F20 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
David, show me a scripture that says some supernatural being causes us to serve our own nature.
OUR FLESH is contrary to the Spirit of God.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Satan represents an adversary, I don't know how many times we have to go over this. Satan is NEVER identified as a supernatural evil being against man. He is specifically identified as the man who follows his own flesh.
The carnal mind is specifically said to be an adversary against God, and thus it is an adversary against us, making us our own adversary. We are Satan! The ruler of the world is the carnal mind that follows the flesh.
This following scripture also makes it VERY clear that the ruler of the world that is causing man to sin is man himself when he follows his own flesh.
Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! 8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
We are never told that we are slaves of other beings of which YHWH created and fell from following His authority, and are now living in a secret kingdom of darkness that rules over earth. That is completely absurd, and the scriptures that people use to try and defend that man made story are being completely misinterpreted.
Case in point would be Ephesians 2, people define the spirit as representing some evil celestial being when the scripture clearly tells us that the spirit that is working in the sons of disobedience is the spirit in man that follows his own flesh.
Ephesians 2:2…… the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
By nature we WERE children of wrath. Genesis tells us that God PUT enmity into the serpent’s seed. Our nature is to follow the creation and not the Creator. Our bellies cleave to the earth, instead of looking up to God. The earth is in a state of survival. Man is cursed more like any animal because his mind is consciously aware of death. By nature we are drawn to serve our flesh. God has put us through great testing, and in the end we will triumph and our reward will be that He will destroy this enmity, which we know He already has in Yeshua. Learning to conquer our flesh teaches us so many valuable lessons, compassion, patience, kindness, forgiveness, service, selflessness and love. So even though God broughth us the darkness of death we will be formed into creatures of light from what we learned from it.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
What was the barrier, what was the wall of hostility? Christ abolished in his flesh the law, which was how our sins were counted. Christ’s purpose was not to come and destroy some hidden celestial dark kingdom, but to create in himself a new man from the old man.
Eph 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
Does the old man have anything to do with being drawn away and enticed by a celestial dark kingdom? No it is his own body of sin and his own lusts that draw him.
Interesting how devil we know means a slanderer or liar, and here we see that lies are deeds of the old man. Why is man a devil, a liar? Why does a person lie? Does a man lie because he selfishly serves his flesh over others? Yes, but some want to say that a man is the son of a devil because a hiding celestial being is drawing him to be a liar. What absolute nonsense. How more pathetic is a man who not only lies, but says he does so because it is not forces within his own nature causing him to do so, but some other being calling him to do so. Man would rather play dumb, then admit that he is by nature a child of wrath, and how deceitful and convenient it is for those who try and claim that both are true.
Hi David,
Here is something also from that previous post.
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints–
Who is Paul wrestling with? Who are the spiritual hosts of wickendness in the ‘heavenly’ places? Is this scripture declaring that which Paul is wrestling with is not flesh and blood? No it is not. When someone takes into account all that which the New Testament tells us and reads Ephesians 6 in the context of not only who wrote it but what was going on during the time then it is quite easily understood.
Christ has paid for our sins, he destroyed the enmity that was in our flesh. Though we cannot go completely without sin until God removes death from us, we are no longer under our flesh to serve it. God through Christ has lifted that slavery. Paul knowing this truth is telling us in Ephesians that he no longer has to wrestle with his flesh and blood and try to be perfect in the law, being a slave to his body. Paul has to wrestle with and so does all other believers with the rulers of the darkness of this age.
Paul is not a slave to his flesh and blood anymore, but at the time that Paul wrote this he was in prison, of which was according to the authority, principality and rulership and heavenly place/high position, of the Roman government who was heavily influenced by the high positioned Jews, who personally beat and battered Paul, and were responsible for putting him in prison.
This is why Paul says to the people in Ephesians who would likely face persecution themselves, to put on the whole armor of God and to stand in truth and be prepared in God’s word so that on the day that the evil comes they will be ready to face the persecution.
The rulers of the darkness of that age were those people not in the light of Christ, the Jews and the Gentiles, the high positioned persons wanting to inflict those in the light. Those Jews in their heavenly places where false accusing the followers of Jesus, they were trying to suppress and lie about God's word. Those Jews represented the Devil and the Adversary of which Christ's early followers were being warned about.
Hi Jodi,
The Jews are the adversary?
What antisemetism is this?No it is in HEAVENLY places where the true enemies are found, not among FLESH and BLOOD.
Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 06 2008,02:20) Hi DK, I am with Gene on this, I am not accusing you of lying, but that is definitely the sort of thing that I would need to see to believe.
One point I would like to make is this though, whatever it is going on in that house it is NOT CAUSING anyone to sin, which is my entire position on this forum, that there are no supernatural beings that influence us to sin.
DK, if this house were to be filled with evil spirits, like you seem to believe, then why the heck does your family still hang out there? Let me guess, its something rather amusing and intriguing to them. They obviously don't seem to FEEL THREATENED, or else they would not stay there.
Are you trying to tell us that your family likes to live amongst what they believe are evil spirits?
Do they go there and pray for them to leave, or do they stay there in hopes that they will see something?
To be honest, since so many of your family members claim to see this, and they continue to flock to this house, from my understanding of the bible, I would have to conclude that God is further allowing their minds to play tricks on them.
For the record no one “flocks” to that house…it was vacant for a while after my grandmother passed..as to why she stayed..lets just say that its hard to get an 81 year old woman to leave “her house”…my uncle who lives there now has had a bad turn of fortune so he needed a place to stay..
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