Satan

[Jodi]

So Nick what is the truth of Jesus? Jesus didn't say that the unclean spirits were self aware evil creatures that have nothing better to do with their time then REST tormenting people. So what exactly do you understand them to be?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
The sacred scriptures reveal that Jesus conversed with a legion of such spirits who drove a man to strange behaviours, and they knew their fate and were driven out leaving him in a sound mind. What they do and how they behave and what to do about them he showed but what their nature was in not clearly revealed. However we should believe what is written and go from there. We should not limit what we accept from what is sacred to what our minds can encompass but let those words enlarge our minds..

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,08:30)

Hi GB, We are told to call no man rabbi but to accept your teaching would be to rate you above the Master. No your intellectualisations and rationalisations are in no way comparable to the everlasting words of Jesus, given him from God, and on which our faith stands.

Nick…….thats your perception coming from your mind, Fact is i totally agree with what Jesus said, it your lack of understanding thats the problem, no matter how much information is posted and scripture given you just will not except it, I believe your pride is preventing you, you think you are in some position to accuse and criticize others because you are unable to answer the post except to try to play the (your putting yourself ahead of the master card) Or you are putting down Jesus garbage. But the truth is you don't understand what you are saying and putting people down only hinders the truth.

Nick……what good is the “everlasting words of Jesus” when you don't understand them. Anyone can parrot someone, but the greater thing is to understand what the person meant. Which when comparing scriptures you lack in the area of demons and devils and have chosen to believe in spooks and devil beings jumping in and out of people as all pagan religions do. and their foolish minds become darkened by these metaphysical beings they create in there minds. To believe in demon and devil beings is pure IDOLATRY and is totally prohibited by GOD HIMSELF> So if GOD prohibited it i think the Master Jesus would have to. Your lack of understand what a SPIRIT IS, is your problem Nick. IMO

peace………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So tell us about the spirits Jesus spoke with and cast out of people?
Were these just free intellects with no mind to go to that wandered in and out of men's thoughts?

[david]

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don't side track by saying i am not giving you sufficient scripture that a cop out all “RELIGIOUS” people use when they cant give a good answer or they began to attack or accuse the person who disagrees with them.

GB, listen. LISTEN. I shall only say this one more time. I know you use scriptures. I was asking you to quote them more often though, so that we could check them ourselves. You often list many snippets of scripture and sometimes I don't know what they all are. So, for the 3d or 4th time, I was simply asking you to NAME the scriptures more often.

Now that I hope we all understand that… let's discuss the scriptures.

I had asked: who is the “ruler of the world” that Jesus referred to three times?
I haven't read very far, so maybe you answered it, but I don't think you did.
Jesus said: “the ruler of this world will be cast out.” And he added: “the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me.” And, “the ruler of this world has been judged.”–John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11

NOW, WHO DO YOU BELIEVE THIS RULER IS? I think it's the “Devil” who “tempted” Jesus by offering him “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.” (Mat 4:1,8)
If on the other hand, these kingdoms were not the Devil's to give, who is the “ruler of the world” who Jesus three times spoke of so negatively?

As well, Satan is not alone in his rulership.
“Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”–Ephesians 6:11,12

So from these scriptures, it is clear that someone has been controlling both men and nations. And the Bible clearly identifies him when it speaks of: “The one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth”–Revelation 12:9

Anyway, my one, first question to you: Who is the ruler of the world Jesus spoke of?

[david]

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David….Good post now lets see if we can understand it. Lets start with just a few scriptures. John 8:44 …> you are of YOUR FATHER the devil and, the LUSTS of your Father You WILL DO. He was a murderer from the beginning (CAIN), and abode not in the truth, Because the truth was not in Him >(HOLY SPIRIT) as it is in those who have it,> When He (CARNAL MAN) speaks a lie, he (CARNAL MAN) speaks of or FROM HIS OWN SELF, For he is a liar and the FATHER of IT>This is the way i understand this sectipture.

JOHN 8:44
4You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Devil, of course, literally means “slanderer.” While cain was a manslayer, I don't know that he had reason to be called a devil or slanderer.

Satan the devil of course slandered God, right from the beginning, saying he was a liar, (Gen 3:5) and of course, Satan is ultimately responsible for the death of billions. His course is what lead adam to sin.
And this of course lead to our sinnng and death.
“That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (rom 5:12)
Hence, if anyone is fit to be called a manslayer, on a gross scale, it is the spirit that “seduced Eve.” (2 cor 11:3)

Also, note the last words about this one in question:
he is a liar and the father of lies.
Hence, a slanderer (devil)

Was cain the father of the lies? Wasn't the first lie from that serpent puppet under Satan's control when he said God was withholding something good from them?
Yes, that was the first lie? And it was not Cain that told it. Cain is not the father of the lie. Nor is he known for slander, hence the word 'devil' which appears in that scripture doesn't fit him.

thus, it's not referring to cain.

Nice try though.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,16:54)

Hi Jodi, The sacred scriptures reveal that Jesus conversed with a legion of such spirits who drove a man to strange behaviours, and they knew their fate and were driven out leaving him in a sound mind. What they do and how they behave and what to do about them he showed but what their nature was in not clearly revealed. However we should believe what is written and go from there. We should not limit what we accept from what is sacred to what our minds can encompass but let those words enlarge our minds..

Hi Nick,

Isn't God the one who said that He would punish man and his offspring with confusion of mind and madness? Why is it hard for you to understand that Jesus was conversing with the madness within the man? This disease which represented numerous unclean spirits, more then likely at least one of them being a debilitating bacteria or virus, became airborne according to the hand of God through Jesus and entered the swine. Man and animals due indeed share diseases. We see this in our own country today with things such as West Nile and Mad Cow disease.

It is by God's powers that people are cursed with confusion and madness. Are you trying to tell us Nick that God's supernatural creatures who have separated themselves from Him have the ability to still use God's powers against His will?

[david]

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Was Judas responsible for what He did or some other being, is all of man kinds evil the result of some other being and therefor man should not be responsible for any sin then.

GB, if I tell you to do something–If I tell you to steal and you steal, am I responsible for the theft, or is it you who will be fined?
What if I do a huge advertasing campaign. Every day, I play commmercials on tv about how great it is to steal.
And so you finally succumb and steal something, having convinced yourself that it is ok, and that what I said made sense.

Who is responsible?

It's still you. You still had the choice. You are still responsible. But, this doesn't mean…

wait, you still haven't answered my question have you: What did Jesus mean when he kept referring to the ruler of the world who would be judged?

[Jodi]

Quick correction,

I did not mean to assert that I believe that there are any supernatural creatures out there who are separated from God.

I believe that the only wickedness in existence today comes strictly from man.

[david]

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I John 3:10……….> In this is the Children of GOD are manifested and the Children of the Devil whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loves not his brother. Notice the Children of Men are not mentioned , why, i believe it's because there is only two choices and that the devil is comprised of the children of men who are by nature the children of the devil. The devil i believe is not external of the person but internal in the person through His Carnal nature which He received from the world he was born into. IMO

Of course we are all children of men or mankind. But whom we chose to follow, dictates how we are viewed. If we follow God, we are his children. If we follow his opposer (Satan is a word that means “resistor/opposer”) then we are really children of the devil.

Notice:
“He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning.”—1Jo 3:8.

What oh what, is this referring to?

Because the devil is the originator of sin (having lied about God to Eve) he may as well be called the father of the lie. (Oh wait, he is–see John 8:44)

And so everyone that imitates him and willfully carries on sin can rightly be called his children.

[Jodi]

Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2008,19:53)

Quote Was Judas responsible for what He did or some other being, is all of man kinds evil the result of some other being and therefor man should not be responsible for any sin then. GB, if I tell you to do something–If I tell you to steal and you steal, am I responsible for the theft, or is it you who will be fined? What if I do a huge advertasing campaign. Every day, I play commmercials on tv about how great it is to steal. And so you finally succumb and steal something, having convinced yourself that it is ok, and that what I said made sense. Who is responsible? It's still you. You still had the choice. You are still responsible. But, this doesn't mean… wait, you still haven't answered my question have you: What did Jesus mean when he kept referring to the ruler of the world who would be judged?

So David, on that note,

When and how does this Satan of yours, influence? And didn't you not say earlier that Satan is capable of making you believe that he does not exist?

So how is it that he influences us without our knowing it? When Satan influences us without our knowing it, then wouldn't that make us NOT responsible for the influences that affect us?

[david]

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As well, if this powerful supernatural being wants us to worship him, then why on earth would he also try deceiving us into believing that he does not exist?

While he worship for himself, ultimately, he wants to prove God wrong. It began with him wanting what God would have–power, worship, etc.
God is allowing him to prove his claims. Look at Job's account. Satan clearly wanted to show God that men only serve God because of what they get from him, not because of love. If he could prove God wrong, that no man would do this, then he wins. Yes, he wants worship, but really, if he turns us away from worshipping God, it accomplishes his aims, nonetheless.

[david]

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And didn't you not say earlier that Satan is capable of making you believe that he does not exist?

I said that he doesn't want people to know he exists–just like any criminal.

2 CORINTHIANS 4:4
“among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

Jodi, I'm wondering what you think of this scripture. To whom does it refer?

[david]

Also, to the above, i would add:

2 CORINTHIANS 11:14
“And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.”

But moving on,

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So how is it that he influences us without our knowing it?

We are inflluenced without our consciously knowing it for much of the day. Advertising, for example. It works. Many big companies spend billions on advertising. They do this because they know it works.

Let's start with some scrptures:
Even though the Bible says: “The earth belongs to Jehovah,” it also says: “Earth itself has been given into the hand of the wicked one.” (Ex 9:29; Job 9:24) The apostle John stated something similar saying: “We originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”–1 John 5:19
Shortly after his baptism, Jesus was “tempted by the Devil.” Citing one of the temptations, the Bible says: “The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.” (Matthew 4:1,8) Satan then told Jesus: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.””–Luke 4:6,7
Satan “tempted” Jesus by offering him “all the kingdoms of the world.” Yet, would Satan’s offer have been a real temptation if Satan was not actually the ruler of these kingdoms? And note, Jesus di d not deny tat all these wordly governments were Satan’s, which he would have done if Satan did not have power over them.–Matthew 4:1,8-10
In fact, on another occasion Jesus confirmed that Satan truly is the ruler of the kingdoms of this world. He said: “the ruler of this world will be cast out.” And he added: “the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me.” And, “the ruler of this world has been judged.”–John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
Satan is not alone in his rulership. “Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”–Ephesians 6:11,12
So from these scriptures, it is clear that someone has been controlling both men and nations. And the Bible clearly identifies him when it speaks of: “The one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth”–Revelation 12:9 (Also see Rev. 13:2 where Satan is depicted as a dragon that gives to the world’s political system “it’s power and its throne and great authority.”)
The Bible even calls Satan “the god of this system of things”
2 CORINTHIANS 4:4
“among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

To your question:
EPHESIANS 2:1-2
“Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins, in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.”

It's intersesting, if you look, you'll find that Jesus said his disciples would be “no part of the world” just as he himself was “no part of the world.”
(John 15:19)

So, maybe this influence doesn't affect them as it does those who are of the world.

[david]

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When Satan influences us without our knowing it, then wouldn't that make us NOT responsible for the influences that affect us?

Again, no. We always have influences acting on us. Peer pressure is a good example. Yes, it can influence a person. But, you still have the choice–smoke and be cool, or don't smoke and do the intelligent thing.

You might not even realize the influence. Maybe we see someone we admire smoking. We think nothing of it. But of course, it does influence you subtely. I guess the question is, does God's Word influence you more?

[david]

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Of course I believe what Jesus taught, he is the one that referred to Satan as directly representing a MAN who has in mind the things of MEN.

Hi Jodi. I'm wondering which scripture you are referring to here?

[david]

MATTHEW 12:24
“At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·el′ze·bub, the ruler of the demons.””

Who is the ruler of the demons?

I'm still not really sure what people think demons are.

[david]

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Would you both mind posting what the bible teaches about mediums etc. and how this relates to demons and satan?

Hi ske.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but here's a scripture:
DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12
“There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults A SPIRIT MEDIUM or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.”

Doing these things, including going to a spirit medium were considered “detestable” to God.

LEVITICUS 20:27
““‘And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them.’””

Again it is the Holy Bible that identifies the many ways that evil spirits deceive and mislead men. They do this by means of spiritistic practices condemned by Jehovah God because they are of demonic origin and not from God.

“Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them.”—Leviticus 19:31.

For mankind’s protection and safe guidance into the truth the Scriptures expose spiritualism to be what it actually is, spiritism or demonism.

This is also a good scripture:
GALATIANS 5:19-21
“Now the works of the flesh are . . . practice of spiritism, . . . .As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.”

[david]

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There is not one single reference to a spirit in the bible as representing some self aware being who hates God and has it out for mankind and can jump in and out of people.

–jodi

MATTHEW 8:31
“So the demons began to entreat him, saying: “If you expel us, send us forth into the herd of swine.””

Does this indicate self-awareness? Does it indicate anything else?

Evidently the demons get some sort of unnatural, sadistic pleasure from invading the bodies of fleshly creatures.

Some people think this doesn't make sense, Jesus allowing this. So they disregard this scripture.

According to God’s law swine were unclean animals, and not only were the Israelites forbidden to eat their flesh or to use them for sacrifices but even to touch the carcasses of swine made an Israelite unclean. For them to raise swine was therefore a flagrant disregard of God’s law. Since they had no business raising swine even for commercial purposes they could well consider this destruction of their herd as a just rebuke.
But, it was not required that Jesus exercise foreknowledge as to what the demons would do once they entered the unclean animals. Also, it might be reasonably argued that one man is worth more than a herd of swine, especially since swine were supposed to have no commercial value among the Jews. So no fault can be found with Jesus’ permitting the demons to enter into the swine.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2008,15:05)

Quote And didn't you not say earlier that Satan is capable of making you believe that he does not exist? I said that he doesn't want people to know he exists–just like any criminal. 2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 “among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” Jodi, I'm wondering what you think of this scripture.  To whom does it refer?

..they always dance around this scripture bro

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