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Matthew 4:9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
If the devil represents a supernatural being that wants us to worship him, then why is it that he inflicts us with negative things instead of positive? As well, if this powerful supernatural being wants us to worship him, then why on earth would he also try deceiving us into believing that he does not exist? The devil wants us to worship him, but yet he also does not want us to know that he exists? That does not make any sense to me.
As well, if the Devil was trying to make a plead to Jesus to worship him, then why didn’t the Devil just supply Jesus with food and why wouldn’t the devil tell Jesus that he would catch him?
Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' ” 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' ” 7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' ” 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.' ” 11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
The Holy Spirit led Jesus to the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, and BEFORE he was tempted his mind and body was purposely made extremely weak through being starved.
Matthew 4 fits perfectly with Jesus having to battle his carnal nature/the devil.
After becoming so hungry the devil entered his mind (his carnal nature) and Jesus wanted to use God’s powers for his own sake to make himself food. Jesus denied his carnal mind, refocusing his hunger on the word of God, because as he said,” 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'”
The next thing we see is Jesus carnal mind wanting to tempt God by throwing himself off the pinnacle of the temple. Jesus was thinking about wanting God to prove just how important he really was.
Finally, Jesus thought to himself what he could have and control if he denied God and followed his own will.
If we read Matthew 4 and apply it to the REALITY we experience in our own lives it should confirm just who the devil really is.
When your really hungry does some supernatural being come speak to you and try and get you to sin, or does your mind become weakened and more tempted to follow your flesh?
Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Those who are evil, those who deceive with flattering speech, those in other words who are devils, are those who FOLLOW their own BELLY, their OWN FLESH!
Jesus was tested with hungry, his weak flesh made his mind desire to serve his flesh all the more. The devil of whom Jesus did battle with when he was led by the Spirit into the wilderness was himself.
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,* who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
It is NOT walk according to the temptation of a supernatural being, it is do not walk according to your flesh.
Do not let your flesh tempt you into sinning.
How did Jesus condemn sin in the flesh? Did he deny some supernatural being? No, he denied his flesh.
Does it take a supernatural being to make us want to serve our flesh?
NO, it is our very nature that causes us to serve our flesh.
Ro 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Ro 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh[/b], but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
There is not a scripture that says a supernatural being causes us to live according to our flesh. It is by nature that we are children of wrath.
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
So who then would make up our adversary, who then would be a liar and a slanderer? Ourselves of course!
In my understanding, those who believe that supernatural beings tempt us are following the devil, they are following the slandering man, either from the influence of another man or from the influence of their own deceiving mind. More then likely their false belief comes from both, the slandering mind within themselves and the slandering mind of another person influencing them.
We are deserving of death because we are futile. We are the ones who are whisperers and backbiters. We are the ones who are proud and invent evil ways.
Romans 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man–and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is agains
t nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.Why is it so hard to see, especially given scriptures likes these, that our only enemy is ourselves? The world is evil when man follows the ways of man.
Why must people deny direct scripture that tells us that Satan is MAN?
Mt 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Mr 8:33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Could the bible really be any more CLEAR, to be an adversary is to have in mind the things of MEN.
Oh, but we are suppose to believe that it takes a fallen angel or some sort of supernatural being to make us think like men??
We are responsible for our sins, but yet some supernatural being can cause us to sin without us even knowing it?
Some people really need to come to grips with who man is, and stop trying to put the blame of our evil world onto anyone but ourselves.
Jodi………> Amen, sis, as you say you nailed it. If only prople could realize its themselves that are the devils and Satans, not some invisible being jumping in and out of people. The Spirit of the devil is the intellect of the carnal mind of man, it is an adavesary of GOD. And you have it right Jesus was batteling His own Carnal Mind and over came it by the word of GOD in HIM.
love and peace to you and yours Jodi……….gene
Hi JOdi,
Did you think all the answers to your doubts would be answered when you read scripture?
It is rather better to learn from it knowing it is the truth and we are ignorant.
To deny what we cannot understand would not be a useful option.Nick……thats the problem the one acusing others of confusion are themselves the confused it apears. Jodi is not the one confused , it people who think devils and Satans are going around jumping in and out of people that are the confussed. Jesus called people BLIND GUIDES so there are people who don't understand in fact only a few really understand scriputre that ought to be obivious with all the different religious organizaqtions and doctrines and bible translations ,ETC.
Hi GB,
We do not read scripture to select from it what we can now understand.
We accept it all all let it teach us.
Satan is writtenQuote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,17:35) Hi JOdi,
Did you think all the answers to your doubts would be answered when you read scripture?
It is rather better to learn from it knowing it is the truth and we are ignorant.
To deny what we cannot understand would not be a useful option.
Nick,Either you cannot read, hear, or your delusional! No offense man, but seriously, like Gene said I am not confused with scripture, it is with man's blatant stupidity that I am confused with. It is with the man who would rather dwell in superstition and paganism, then with the clarity of scripture and life's reality, that I am stumped.
But I guess you are right I am forgetting scripture, God did say he would give people up to their own delusions. I guess I just didn't think that such a scripture would still in fact apply to educated people such as yourself.
If you were paying attention at all to my post, which is obvious that you weren't, you would see that my doubts are with man's interpretation with scripture, and not with the scriptures themselves. My doubts, as you like to call them, were with the repetitive idiotic notion I keep hearing, that a supernatural being influences us to sin without us even knowing it. Or that we need some non human to make us think according to our own nature.
Nick you seem to twist people's words a lot. Either your sick and twisted or you just like playing the devil's advocate for the sake of this forum, either way I can handle the sauce!
Satan is indeed written. No one is saying that he is not. Once again your twisting people's words. Who is Satan identified as?
Scripture NEVER says he is a supernatural being who wants us to worship him and at the same time hides from us trying to make it seem like he does not exist.
Scripture clearly says that Satan represents the HUMAN BEING that has in mind the things of MEN, rather than the things of God.
So Nick the question to YOU is, do you deny such clarity of scripture for REAL, or are you just playing the devil's advocate?
Hi Jodi,
Jesus, the Word of God, the truth, taugfht about unclean spirits and their interesting ways.Mt12
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
We may not understand it all but it is from his mouth and he spoke the words of God.
No superstition or paganism here.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,20:39) Hi JOdi,
Jesus was neither superstitious nor a pagan.
I believe what he taught.
Do you?
Of course I believe what Jesus taught, he is the one that referred to Satan as directly representing a MAN who has in mind the things of MEN.He is the man who said that nothing from outside a man can defile him, but that sin comes from WITHIN.
So Nick, I think the question would be better aimed at you, do you believe in the clear words of Jesus?
Hi Jodi,
So please explain this truth about unclean spirits coming and going from INSIDE a man.Mt12
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Matthew 12:43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
Nick you are apply unclean spirit to images equal to that of paganism.
Jesus was speaking to a wicked generation of whom were filled with unclean spirits because they lived in sinful ways according to their flesh.
There is not one single reference to a spirit in the bible as representing some self aware being who hates God and has it out for mankind and can jump in and out of people.
On the contrary, man in his temporary state is often referred to as having a spirit of that state. For example, a man who is jealous is said to have a jealous spirit, a man who is sad is said to have a spirit of sadness, etc.
Nu 5:30 or when a spirit of jealousy passeth over a man, and he hath been jealous of his wife, then he hath caused the woman to stand before Jehovah, and the priest hath done to her all this law,
Pr 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.
Pr 16:19 Better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly, Than to divide the spoil with the proud.
Isa 65:14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit.
Man is also referred to being unclean.
Mt 23:27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Ro 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Ro 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
2 Co 12:21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.
Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Eph 4:19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
According to scripture an unclean spirit would be consistent as representing something evil that is aroused from within man's flesh and then enters man's mind and allows him to serve the flesh according to the unclean spirit, rather then according to God's ways.
Ask yourself Nick, is the generation evil because they are allowing supernatural beings to jump in and our of them, or are they evil because they are allowing their flesh to control their mind and thus be consumed with all manners of uncleanness?
Hi JOdi ,
So the unclean spirits of those men in that generation came and went from their accomodation in them? They wandered through dry places and then decided to go back where they came from?There are many unclean, evil spirits floating around out there in our dark world ready to take hold of our minds and allow us to commit sins within our flesh. These unclean spirits are produced from within man’s heart and they become influential to not only the individual but to other individuals and society as a whole as well.
I John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
We all battle with sin, when a person’s mind set is in a sinful place the person’s spirit is unclean, and that which is in them is referred to as an unclean spirit. At one particular time a person can be in a state where several unclean spirits or evil spirits are working in them affecting their actions. When a married man is lusting after another woman he has an unclean spirit working in his heart. If the man allows this unclean spirit to rule over him it can not only lead him down a path of many sins, but also to the development of more unclean spirits. He might even as well become infected with an unclean spirit from God, such as an STD.
When a man tries to better himself often times we see an improvement that is short lived and a regression into a state that was worst then the first. This is because his efforts were not built on a solid foundation.
Matthew 7:24 `Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell not, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 `And every one who is hearing of me these words, and is not doing them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.'
Matthew 12: 43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
Is this scripture really talking about evil supernatural beings who find REST in tormenting people, rather then hanging out at some tropical oasis drinking margaritas?
Who and what are these unclean spirit beings who believe that a home of rest is inside a human causing them to do evil? I’ll tell you what they are they are MADE UP creatures that were established by the church who tried to understand the bible from their pagan perspective.
The unclean spirits are not self aware beings, they are evils that can come and go within man depending on man’s personal state of mind. If a man leaves himself in a state of an empty soul with no righteous foundation of character, the weakness of his flesh will give into evil and unclean spirits.
Hi Jodi,
So these floating evils are interesting.So since they fly in and out of the characters of men then surely those men cannot be responsible for their antics.
Naah.
I prefer the truth of Jesus.Nick…….here is something else to just conceder, if you understand that a word is Spirit, and you know a word is the expression of intellegence or knowledge of some kind. Now imagine if you can (ALL) intellect already existed, both good and evil knowledge life is made up of these knowledges. Now let classify them into two categories one clean knowledge and one unclean knowledge, If we sow (take to ourself) the unclean knowledge we will become unclean, if we sow (take to ourselves) the clean knowledge we will become clean, why because life consists of Knowledge which is intellect.. That why Jesus said you are now clean because of the (WORDS) i have spoken unto you, and again we are washed (cleaned up) by The Word of God. Now God wants us to be clean in our thoughts by clean Knowledge coming into us, But evil or unclean knowledge he does not want to rule our lives and people who are letting that happen are acting as an adversary (SATAN) to Him. The Carnal mind is an adversary (SATAN) to GOD, its not subject to the laws of God neither (CAN) be. So it does the will and work of an adversary (SATAN) itself. there is no being jumping in and out of people Nick. The biggest problem is people do not understand what (A SPIRIT) is, it is A WORD expressing our thoughts, coming from our intellect in fact it makes up the intellect of a person. A man without the intervention in his heart and mind by God (cannot) change himself no matter how hard he or she tries, That why is BY GRACE (godly influencing on the heart) we are cleansed. Jodi and Newton are both right in what they are and have said. IMO
peace……….gene
Hi GB,
We are told to call no man rabbi but to accept your teaching would be to rate you above the Master.No your intellectualisations and rationalisations are in no way comparable to the everlasting words of Jesus, given him from God, and on which our faith stands.
Hi, I'm new here but been lurking for awhile. Have read (most) of this thread and found it interesting and very helpful. Gene and Jodi I want to thank you both very much for your insightful posts and the time you put into them. They make a lot of sense and have helped to change my mind about a lot of things regarding satan and demons. Would you both mind posting what the bible teaches about mediums etc. and how this relates to demons and satan? That is one thing I'm not yet clear on. Again thanks for your time and effort.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,12:14) Hi Jodi,
So these floating evils are interesting.So since they fly in and out of the characters of men then surely those men cannot be responsible for their antics.
Naah.
I prefer the truth of Jesus.
Nick you seem to have a very hard time understanding symbolism or manners of expression.Obviously I don't believe that evil spirits are literally floating around like blown bubbles. I am saying that every person in this world carries around with them unclean spirits. Unclean spirits are every where. Why, is this? Because we are sinners and we have created a world filled with sin.. It is very unfortunate how you cannot understand the concept in the bible of what spirit means. When a man beats his wife he is filled with a spirit of rage and a spirit of anger and a spirit of cruelty. These evil spirits that have possessed his mind are controlling his actions and causing him to sin.
Where did these evil spirits come from, the man's heart and his inability to have self control and deal with his own problems that the struggle of life has thrown out at him, and by thrown out at him I obviously don't mean he had something literally thrown out at him, it's an expression.
So Nick what is the truth of Jesus? Jesus didn't say that the unclean spirits were self aware evil creatures that have nothing better to do with their time then REST tormenting people. So what exactly do you understand them to be?
My understanding comes from taking the clear words of Jesus to make them fit in with the scriptures that aren't as clear.
Let's break this down-
-Jesus said that Satan represents the man who follows his own ways.-Jesus said that nothing from outside a man can cause him to do evil, that man's evil comes from his own heart.
-Scripture also says that MAN is unclean and that MAN is evil.
-Scripture also shows that in all cases in the bible where the word 'spirit' is used in th OT and the NT, not once is it said to be an evil supernatural being against God and man, but it is however used many, many times to reflect the state of man or the mind of man.
It is by the clear scriptures that I use to create my understanding of Matthew 12:43. I do not let my imagination or superstitions dictate my understanding.
Nick IMO you do not prefer the truth of Jesus, you are flat out denying or adding to his clear message.
Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! 8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
By this the adversary is identified, by this the slanderer can be seen. The adversary and the devil is the human being. Jesus did not say woe to the world because an evil supernatural creature brought offenses. Man brought the offenses according to his own flesh.
If people can step away from their indoctrinization it is all clear.
Quote (Skye3 @ Sep. 03 2008,13:59) Hi, I'm new here but been lurking for awhile. Have read (most) of this thread and found it interesting and very helpful. Gene and Jodi I want to thank you both very much for your insightful posts and the time you put into them. They make a lot of sense and have helped to change my mind about a lot of things regarding satan and demons. Would you both mind posting what the bible teaches about mediums etc. and how this relates to demons and satan? That is one thing I'm not yet clear on. Again thanks for your time and effort.
Hello SKY3 and welcome!Thanks for your kind and encouraging words. I should be back here later on tonight and will post something about mediums. Glad you brought it up.
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