Satan

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi……> right on, sin is from man and came into the world by Adam as scripture says, not some spook or demon of some kind. No Satan and the devils are mankind witched and evil self not some celestial being or fallen angel some where. It's time people came out of the pagan deceptions and see things as they really are not with deluded unrealistic minds.

Love to you and yours , hug the kids for me………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…….have you read Isaac Newton parers on Devils and demons yet?

peace……..gene

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2008,19:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2008,06:58) Hello, This is a new subject for me to post in.  I haven't read many of the posts here so please forgive me if this passage has already been throughly hashed through.  It probably has, so if any can lead me to the page(s) of those posts I would be grateful.  My understanding of the following passage is that evil spirits can exist within a man and are subject to Christ, can exit the man and enter pigs.  These evil spirits would not be a part of the natural man but something from the spirit world that could torment man and dwell within him. Matthew 8:28-34 28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region. These verbs “came” and “went” are written in the active voice in the greek and therefore the subject is doing the action themself and not written in the passive voice which is used when the action is being done to the subject. For example: “And they came out and went into the swine…” Since “came” and “went” are written in the active voice it tells us that the “demons” themselves came out by their own action and they went into the swine by their own actions.  Of course, they were doing these actions under the authority of Christ. I do not see this particular passage as mental illness that doctors today would just take care of with medicine.  A mental illness does not do its own coming out of a man and then do its own entering into pigs.  This passage is about something far different, IMO. Thank you for your thoughts, LU LU Excellent post. The Greek and Hebrew scholars would have translated the scriptures differently if the Greek words would have allowed them to. None of the major translations on Biblegateway.com or Blueletterbible.org shows the translations to read that the “devils” were the mans unclean spirit or some mental illness that went into swine and caused them to commit suicide. There are not even any footnotes of such. In fact as far as I know, none of the major commentators even implied such. Yeshua would have at some point (with all the examples we have of unclean spirits and demons being cast out), explained that they were not spirit beings but rather sicknesses or mental illnesses. Instead he speaks of satan having a kingdom that is not divided against itself and that he saw being cast down to the earth. Fallen angel? I don’t know. But an evil sentient being that is now the ruler and prince of the kingdom of darkness. This is undeniably scriptural. WJ

Hello WJ,
Thanks! I agree with you on this one

Blessings,
LU

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,13:49)

Jodi……> right on, sin is from man and came into the world by Adam as scripture says, not some spook or demon of some kind. No Satan and the devils are mankind witched and evil self not some celestial being or fallen angel some where. It's time people came out of the pagan deceptions and see things as they really are not with deluded unrealistic minds. Love to you and yours , hug the kids for me………….gene

Hi GB,
So you show your true colours now.
You abandon scriptural reliance on matters such as Satan.
What is the next godly scriptural truth to be thrown overboard in this quest for self reliance?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,13:51)

WJ…….have you read Isaac Newton parers on Devils and demons yet? peace……..gene

GB

First of all he is an Arian and is anti-trinitarian. So that puts him in your camp and not mine.

Also, from what I could find on his writings concerning satan, there is little scripture and a bunch of oppologetics.

He was a great scientist and obviously a briliant man, but that in no way qualifies him as a Hebrew or Greek scholar and worthy of changing scriptural text in oposition to the translators.

So put your trust in the mans writings if you like. I still like the scriptures that we have and find no need to change the interpretations.

1000s of experts far more worthy and capable than you and I brought the scriptures that we have in what I believe is the purist form of the text.

I will say it again. If people so disagree with the translations that have few variations, then why dont they write their own modern day version and change them to read as they will.

The JWs were more noble in doing this with the NWT in my opinion.

I imagine that a modern day translation will look like this…

For he said unto him, come out of youself thou unclean spirit. Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are thousands of infections.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area. A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. So the mental illnesses caused by 1000s of infections begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission, and the mental illness caused by the 1000s of infections came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. Matt 5:8-13

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2008,16:08)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2008,19:18) Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2008,06:58) Hello, This is a new subject for me to post in.  I haven't read many of the posts here so please forgive me if this passage has already been throughly hashed through.  It probably has, so if any can lead me to the page(s) of those posts I would be grateful.  My understanding of the following passage is that evil spirits can exist within a man and are subject to Christ, can exit the man and enter pigs.  These evil spirits would not be a part of the natural man but something from the spirit world that could torment man and dwell within him. Matthew 8:28-34 28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region. These verbs “came” and “went” are written in the active voice in the greek and therefore the subject is doing the action themself and not written in the passive voice which is used when the action is being done to the subject. For example: “And they came out and went into the swine…” Since “came” and “went” are written in the active voice it tells us that the “demons” themselves came out by their own action and they went into the swine by their own actions.  Of course, they were doing these actions under the authority of Christ. I do not see this particular passage as mental illness that doctors today would just take care of with medicine.  A mental illness does not do its own coming out of a man and then do its own entering into pigs.  This passage is about something far different, IMO. Thank you for your thoughts, LU LU Excellent post. The Greek and Hebrew scholars would have translated the scriptures differently if the Greek words would have allowed them to. None of the major translations on Biblegateway.com or Blueletterbible.org shows the translations to read that the “devils” were the mans unclean spirit or some mental illness that went into swine and caused them to commit suicide. There are not even any footnotes of such. In fact as far as I know, none of the major commentators even implied such. Yeshua would have at some point (with all the examples we have of unclean spirits and demons being cast out), explained that they were not spirit beings but rather sicknesses or mental illnesses. Instead he speaks of satan having a kingdom that is not divided against itself and that he saw being cast down to the earth. Fallen angel? I don’t know. But an evil sentient being that is now the ruler and prince of the kingdom of darkness. This is undeniably scriptural. WJ Hello WJ, Thanks!  I agree with you on this one   Blessings, LU

LU

Thanks! Also, I might add I doubt that Yeshua was talking to his own unclean spirit or an adversary within him when he met satan in the wilderness.

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ….tell me something why are we not seeing all this demonic activity now days as it was supposedly back then.Could it be that modern Science and Psychologist have given us the true causes of the illness. Just asking , Do you find people in your church with all kinds of the demonic influences or if the have a mental problem do you associate them with mental illness, i am just curious that all.

Thanks………. gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2008,16:29)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2008,10:11) Hi, So Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. NH Good point. Who is this devil that sinned from the beginning in which Yeshua came to destroy his works? What a denial of scripture to believe that the devil is not a real sentient being, especially when we see the pronouns and definite article being used with masculine nouns in describing him. Even verbs describing his actions. Blatant denial of the text! WJ

Hi Jodi

Sorry you are so upset with my words!

Quote (Jodi @ July 16 2008,12:13)

Oh, yes what a denial of scripture since scripture is plastered all over with words that say sinful celestial beings are the cause of this worlds evils.

1 John 3:8 doesn’t say he is the cause of the world’s evils.  Why would you misrepresent me? I have never implied satan is the cause of all the worlds evils

It doesn’t say man is the cause of this world’s evil either does it?  It verifies the words of Yeshua who also said…

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

He couldn’t be speaking of Adam in the beginning for Adam was not a murderer. He couldn’t be speaking of their natural father for he speaks of their father in a singular sense. He couldn’t be speaking of just mans sinful nature for he would be saying they themselves are their own father. Notice also that this devil currently exist, for he speaks now, there is no truth in him now, and he is the father of lies now, yet he sinned from the beginning!

Quote (Jodi @ July 16 2008,12:13)

Let's not forget that the bible says through one man sin entered the world. There is not a scripture that says that a sinful celestial being brought that sin to man.

And there is not a single scripture that says mans sinful nature is satan. Don’t you think the Apostles would have been clearer about this?

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. John 3:8

Jodi please take off your glasses for a moment and look closely at this scripture.

Notice the “Of the devil”. Those who practice sin is of the devil, not is the devil.

Quote (Jodi @ July 16 2008,12:13)

What drew Cain to sin? Who let's not forget was a liar and a murderer and was the first human offspring born. Genesis 4:6 Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”

Yes but none of the scriptures imply that original sin came from Cain. Or John could have said that Yeshua came to destroy the works of Cain or Adam, but they say neither anywhere in scriptures. You are making pure inferences and reading into the text your own preconceived theology.

Quote (Jodi @ July 16 2008,12:13)

Why did God want to destroy man and earth? Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

But 1 John 3:8 doesn’t say that Yeshua came to destroy man and earth? It says he came to destroy the “works” of the devil also known as satan.

Quote (Jodi @ July 16 2008,12:13)

WJ can you give me scripture that identifies who this sentient being is, of which you believe represents the devil?

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

Yeshua wasn’t playing mind games here. His speech is clear. You are reading into the scriptures you own inference and seeking to change the meaning of the text. As LU has pointed out to you the Greek demands certain words to be interpreted certain ways.

Masculine pronouns, definite articles, pronouns, verbs, tenses, moods and many other Greek and Hebrew rules of interpretation goes into a text. Where are your credentials to appose the 1000s of experts and change the text?  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,17:53)

WJ….tell me something why are we not seeing all this demonic activity now days as it was supposedly back then.Could it be that modern Science and Psychologist have given us the true causes of the illness. Just asking , Do you find people in your church with all kinds of the demonic influences or if the have a mental problem do you associate them with mental illness, i am just curious that all. Thanks………. gene

GB

When you walk as Yeshua walked you will see them manifest.

I have personally in my years of ministry witnessed many demoniacs and cast out some through the Spirit as the scriptures say.

I haven’t met a “Legion” though. Satan and his demons love religion and can transform themselves into angels of light.

And no marvel; Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Cor 11:13, 14

This scripture also proves that satan is not just man, but is in line with Yeshua's own words.

I haven’t been in a third world country yet, but know ministers that have had experiences with real supernatural powers from demons like the demoniac that no man could restrain.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12

If the rulers and principalities of the darkness of this world is mans evil nature then why does Paul make the distinction that we are not wrestling with flesh and blood (men), but in fact are ingaged in a spiritual warefare against the rulers of the darkness of this world which Paul later clarifies as the devil?

WJ

[Irene]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 16 2008,19:04)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,17:53) WJ….tell me something why are we not seeing all this demonic activity now days as it was supposedly back then.Could it be that modern Science and Psychologist have given us the true causes of the illness. Just asking , Do you find people in your church with all kinds of the demonic influences or if the have a mental problem do you associate them with mental illness, i am just curious that all. Thanks………. gene GB When you walk as Yeshua walked you will see them manifest. I have personally in my years of ministry witnessed many demoniacs and cast out some through the Spirit as the scriptures say. I haven’t met a “Legion” though. Satan and his demons love religion and can transform themselves into angels of light. And no marvel; Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Cor 11:13, 14 This scripture also proves that satan is not just man, but is in line with Yeshua's own words. I haven’t been in a third world country yet, but know ministers that have had experiences with real supernatural powers from demons like the demoniac that no man could restrain. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12 If the rulers and principalities of the darkness of this world is mans evil nature then why does Paul make the distinction that we are not wrestling with flesh and blood (men), but in fact are ingaged in a spiritual warefare against the rulers of the darkness of this world which Paul later clarifies as the devil? WJ

Right on W.J. I agree here. Good Post's.
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Very good points, WJ.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Irene

Thanks!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 17 2008,01:01)

Very good points, WJ.

LU

Thanks again!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2008,16:25)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2008,13:49) Jodi……> right on, sin is from man and came into the world by Adam as scripture says, not some spook or demon of some kind. No Satan and the devils are mankind witched and evil self not some celestial being or fallen angel some where. It's time people came out of the pagan deceptions and see things as they really are not with deluded unrealistic minds. Love to you and yours , hug the kids for me………….gene Hi GB, So you show your true colours now. You abandon scriptural reliance on matters such as Satan. What is the next godly scriptural truth to be thrown overboard in this quest for self reliance?

Nick….your time would be better spent on subject matter then trying to insinuate false statement about me. I would be willing to bet i know more about the scripture then you ever will, judging from what you say anyway. and your rejection of growth in spiritual understanding, is evidence of lack of faith in God's ability to further understand of truth and Knowledge in this world.

IMO…..gene

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2008,15:57)

Hi Jodi, Satan is the father of many opposers of truth. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Sorry this is a bit long. But I hope everyone will still take the time to read it. I do appreciate those who do. Thanks.

Joh 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

You want to carry out your father's desires, your father the devil.

First and foremost, does this text sound like a person who is being accused of being a vessel to let an outside evil force come into them and cause them to sin?

NO!

This text is accusing the person of following the same desires of that which his father has had. We know that 'father' in the bible represents not just your immediate father, but a man of your heritage from long ago.

Does the bible tell us that Cain, the murderer and liar was a vessel controlled by another being?

NO!

Sin in every instance comes from within man's own mind. Man himself contemplates and thinks up evil. Man is the father of evil.
Man is the devil.

Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects gain from extortion and keeps his hand from accepting bribes, who stops his ears against plots of murder and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil—

James 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Our sins come from within and those sins give birth to death.

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil—

If sin comes from within man, and sin gives birth to death, and the power of death is the devil, then the simple truth is not that the devil is some hidden manipulating evil celestial being, now is it?

Yes, scripture does actually require a person to think. The devil represents a man of sin.

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Brethern please notice it is GOD who placed the enmity into the serpent's seed

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

God CREATED the carnal mind, did he not?

Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Christ overcame through God's Spirit the pull of the carnal mind that leads us to sin, he followed not the creation, but the Creator, and through his death he put to death this enmity, when he was raised an immortal.

Thus Christ crushed the head of the serpent!

The carnal mind, is the mind that serves it's flesh. Why do we serve our flesh, because God brought on the enemy, the power of the knowledge of death.

The serpent seed was given enmity by God, which was he took the mind of man and gave it the knowledge of death. “you shall eat dust.” (snakes don't eat dust) our minds eat/take in dust/death. Did Adam and Eve have fear before they ate the tree? Were they consciously aware of what death was? Did they feel pain or suffering?

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Watch out, Nick and WJ, I am going to do some thinking again when I read the scriptures…I am actually going to THINK as I read.

He who holds the power of death is called the devil, who is him, that which holds the power of death?

Are we ever led to believe in scripture that some specific celestial being holds the powers of death?

No, most certainly not, no such scripture exists.

Ro 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Death reigned through the offense of MAN.

Why must you, Nick and WJ, continue to define the devil in a manner that the bible never indicates, but only that which we see from the traditional doctrine of the Christian Church?

Joh 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Is there anything in the bible given that tells us we are VESSELS of which other beings cause us to murder, lie and sin?

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

If we are just vessels that cannot even tell when Satan/evil celestial being strikes, because that is his greatest deception, then why would WE be judged for our sin's committed in this way? We are not responsible for them. We would only be judged according to those sins of which we ourselves committed. Thus what ever the vessel manipulating being does HAS NO bearing on God's punishment towards us. When one applies this TRADITIONAL doctrine to scripture and uses the common sense God GAVE US, HOW FOOLISH is this doctrine? VERY!

I am waiting for someone to once again tell me that I think too much, I should not study the word over and over and connect scriptures and use my mind, of which God GAVE ME. I should just bow down to the traditional doctrine.

I refuse!

Your father the devil who was a murderer and a liar-

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, F4 unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do th
ey not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

You murder and covet because your father is a celestial manipulating vessel?

No!

You murder because of your own desires and wanted pleasures.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Cain was not following God, but following his own works
Being of the wicked one, would be being of the serpent's seed.

Ro 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

By a persons own belly do they lie and deceive. What does that mean, well one has to THINK. Belly represents their own flesh.

Phil 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things.

Genesis 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.

Cain served his belly, he served his flesh. He kept the good stuff for himself and did not give it to God. When God told him that he could do better like his brother Abel, his heart became angry and cold towards his brother, sin came crouching at his door as God warned him it would.

Don't let your flesh be your god and serve earthly things, learn to serve God. Overcome the fear of the grave and live for God's promise of immortality.

Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly. 26 Arise, a help to us, And ransom us for thy kindness' sake

God indeed has given us help, Christ has paid for our sins, and we can no longer live in fear of death, but in the promise of the resurrection.

OOPS, there I go again, thinking about what the scriptures say and mean and then putting them into my own words. I am such a heretic!

Colossians 3:8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Joh 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

The devil is the old man. The devil is not a celestial being who manipulates, deceives or influences man.

Matthew 12:34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Who is being referred to as being a serpent, and why are they being called such?

Men are being called vipers because out of the abundance of the heart their mouths speak evil, not because they are vessels being manipulated unknowingly. For how could they be judged under such conditions? Is our God, not a God of justice? Man is judged and condemned because it is man's heart from where he speaks lies. As man's mind was referred to as being a serpent in the Garden, he is yet again being referred to as such in Matthew.

WJ, and Nick don’t want to THINK about what the scriptures are saying. The want to plug them into their tradition. They don’t want anyone else to think either, they are like dictators, they want you to deny your mind, and blindly follow their tradition.

They want you to define words not through what scripture substantiates them to mean, but from what their traditions tell you they mean.

They accuse me of twisting and manipulating the scriptures and using my own reasoning to deny the simple truth so that I can apparently serve my own ego.

Where in scripture do we see the 'simple truth' that they speak of, where the devil is defined as some manipulating, vessel controlling, influencing evil celestial spirit, who holds the power of death?

Not only have I been yet to find it, but I have seen clear evidence that the devil does indeed represent something else entirely, which is man.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Jodi @ July 17 2008,07:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2008,15:57) Hi Jodi, Satan is the father of many opposers of truth. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Sorry this is a bit long. But I hope everyone will still take the time to read it. I do appreciate those who do. Thanks. Joh 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. You want to carry out your father's desires, your father the devil. First and foremost, does this text sound like a person who is being accused of being a vessel to let an outside evil force come into them and cause them to sin? NO! This text is accusing the person of following the same desires of that which his father has had. We know that 'father' in the bible represents not just your immediate father, but a man of your heritage from long ago. Does the bible tell us that Cain, the murderer and liar was a vessel controlled by another being? NO! Sin in every instance comes from within man's own mind. Man himself contemplates and thinks up evil. Man is the father of evil. Man is the devil. Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects gain from extortion and keeps his hand from accepting bribes, who stops his ears against plots of murder and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil— James 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Our sins come from within and those sins give birth to death. 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil— If sin comes from within man, and sin gives birth to death, and the power of death is the devil, then the simple truth is not that the devil is some hidden manipulating evil celestial being, now is it? Yes, scripture does actually require a person to think. The devil represents a man of sin. Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Brethern please notice it is GOD who placed the enmity into the serpent's seed Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. God CREATED the carnal mind, did he not? Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Christ overcame through God's Spirit the pull of the carnal mind that leads us to sin, he followed not the creation, but the Creator, and through his death he put to death this enmity, when he was raised an immortal. Thus Christ crushed the head of the serpent! The carnal mind, is the mind that serves it's flesh. Why do we serve our flesh, because God brought on the enemy, the power of the knowledge of death. The serpent seed was given enmity by God, which was he took the mind of man and gave it the knowledge of death. “you shall eat dust.” (snakes don't eat dust) our minds eat/take in dust/death. Did Adam and Eve have fear before they ate the tree? Were they consciously aware of what death was? Did they feel pain or suffering? 1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” Watch out, Nick and WJ, I am going to do some thinking again when I read the scriptures…I am actually going to THINK as I read. He who holds the power of death is called the devil, who is him, that which holds the power of death? Are we ever led to believe in scripture that some specific celestial being holds the powers of death? No, most certainly not, no such scripture exists. Ro 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Death reigned through the offense of MAN. Why must you, Nick and WJ, continue to define the devil in a manner that the bible never indicates, but only that which we see from the traditional doctrine of the Christian Church? Joh 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Is there anything in the bible given that tells us we are VESSELS of which other beings cause us to murder, lie and sin? Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. If we are just vessels that cannot even tell when Satan/evil celestial being strikes, because that is his greatest deception, then why would WE be judged for our sin's committed in this way? We are not responsible for them. We would only be judged according to those sins of which we ourselves committed. Thus what ever the vessel manipulating being does HAS NO bearing on God's punishment towards us. When one applies this TRADITIONAL doctrine to scripture and uses the common sense God GAVE US, HOW FOOLISH is this doctrine? VERY! I am waiting for someone to once again tell me that I think too much, I should not study the word over and over and connect scriptures and use my mind, of which God GAVE ME. I should just bow down to the traditional doctrine. I refuse! Your father the devil who was a murderer and a liar-   Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,  30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, F4 unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous ju dgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. You murder and covet because your father is a celestial manipulating vessel? No! You murder because of your own desires and wanted pleasures. 1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous. Cain was not following God, but following his own works Being of the wicked one, would be being of the serpent's seed. Ro 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. By a persons own belly do they lie and deceive. What does that mean, well one has to THINK. Belly represents their own flesh. Phil 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things. Genesis 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. Cain served his belly, he served his flesh. He kept the good stuff for himself and did not give it to God. When God told him that he could do better like his brother Abel, his heart became angry and cold towards his brother, sin came crouching at his door as God warned him it would. Don't let your flesh be your god and serve earthly things, learn to serve God. Overcome the fear of the grave and live for God's promise of immortality. Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly. 26 Arise, a help to us, And ransom us for thy kindness' sake God indeed has given us help, Christ has paid for our sins, and we can no longer live in fear of death, but in the promise of the resurrection. OOPS, there I go again, thinking about what the scriptures say and mean and then putting them into my own words. I am such a heretic! Colossians 3:8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, Joh 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. The devil is the old man. The devil is not a celestial being who manipulates, deceives or influences man. Matthew 12:34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.  35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Who is being referred to as being a serpent, and why are they being called such? Men are being called vipers because out of the abundance of the heart their mouths speak evil, not because they are vessels being manipulated unknowingly. For how could they be judged under such conditions? Is our God, not a God of justice? Man is judged and condemned because it is man's heart from where he speaks lies. As man's mind was referred to as being a serpent in the Garden, he is yet again being referred to as such in Matthew. WJ, and Nick don’t want to THINK about what the scriptures are saying. The want to plug them into their tradition. They don’t want anyone else to think either, they are like dictators, they want you to deny your mind, and blindly follow their tradition. They want you to define words not through what scripture substantiates them to mean, but from what their traditions tell you they mean. They accuse me of twisting and manipulating the scriptures and using my own reasoning to deny the simple truth so that I can apparently serve my own ego. Where in scripture do we see the 'simple truth' that they speak of, where the devil is defined as some manipulating, vessel controlling, influencing evil celestial spirit, who holds the power of death? Not only have I been yet to find it, but I have seen clear evidence that the devil does indeed represent something else entirely, which is man.

Read the account of Job

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Why don't you address the points we make and answer the questions rather than keep on plastering your own oppologetics over and over?  

You are being evasive and changing the subject matter.

What about LUs points about the devils acting on their own?

What about Yeshua, did he have this evil nature called the old man when he spoke to satan in the wilderness?

Was he having a conversation with his evil spirit or old man?

Was he talking to himself? Surely you don't think that?

Maybe he turned water into wine and had a little to much?  

When I get a chance I will address some of your points.

I am sure many others here can also see through some of your unscriptural points.

WJ

[Hanoch]

People who oppose the truth don't spend all day saying outrightly they oppose the truth; their lives are LIVED opposed to the truth.

People who practice the truth don't spend all their time talking about it; they do alot of it.

[Hanoch]

LOL I love all these Star Trek faces LOL!!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Quote (Jodi @ July 17 2008,07:03)

Watch out, Nick and WJ, I am going to do some thinking again when I read the scriptures…I am actually going to THINK as I read.

Go ahead, think for yourself, but when you start thinking outside of what is written or twisting scriptures to fit your own doctrine, then you will be challenged for it.

You act as if when we read the scriptures that we should not think for ourselves but filter it through your interpretations.

Here is a test for you. Give the scriptures, any current translation you want to a 16 year old that is not influenced either way and let them read the Genesis account, the Job account and the Gospels and the Revelation account, and see if they will not say that there is a devil or satan a real sentient being that posseses men or tempts him.

They will not need any special pleading to read into the scriptures something that is not written.

We do not need a translation of the translations. The scriptures are clear. The Hebrew and Greek scholars who were the translators and commentators, thousands I suppose disagrees with you and your new found revelations.

Where is your credentials and why should we believe you over experts and our own personal experiences with spritual wickedness in high places called devils, evil spirits or satan?

[Author]

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