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Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,06:18) Hi Jodi,
Thanks for sharing your personal information. I misunderstood when you mentioned Indian ancestory in your earlier post. Even the name Jodi is similar to our Indian names. Nice memories of yours of Rogue River. Have nice time when you go there. I do enjoy your posts especially posts on conception of Jesus and denying the existence of real Satan. Still I am not convinced on denying real Satan and devil. May be I have to go through the sites that our brother Gene mentioned in his post. I only request you to come down to my level who only believed the existence of real devil and Satan so far and explain Satan and devil. I know you also might have believed their existence earlier. If you bring out the background how you understood this new concept of denying the existence of real Satan and devil may be helpful to me.
Thanks and love to you
Adam[/quote]
Hi Brother Adam,I am the person who is always asking why? Why did God have to do things this way and not another way, in regards to teaching mankind. I use to make up these little charts where I would have God and righteousness, man and sin, and then Satan as the concept of a fallen angel tempting us. The scriptures never seem to fit with the story I was told of the fallen angels, and the idea that an all knowing God would need to use a fallen angel for our progress into righteousness didn't seem right either.
A few years ago when I started my quest in search of truth, and had access to the computer, I began doing searches on different biblical topics. I would read different doctrines from different Christian churches and compare their understandings with the scriptures that they used. When I started a focus on the identity of Satan I came across the doctrine of the Christadelphians, who unlike any other church I found had a completely different understanding to the word satan.
Their doctrine brought my attention to the Young Literals translation of the bible, where you don't find the word Satan at all but only adversary. As well, the fact that the word angel simply meant messenger caught my interest as well and led me to do a word search using YLT on the word messenger. I found not one example of a jealous fallen messenger or messengers who interferes with what happens here on earth. The only messengers that deal with mankind in the bible are those who are following God's instruction. In my search I found that there were no scriptures that linked God's created messengers to that of the adversary against God or the devil/slanderer, we see in the bible.
I then went back to the other church doctrines and looked at what scriptures they used to show their understanding of the identity of Satan and the fall of angels. I found their use of scripture in great lack of proving their doctrine to be true. In all honesty, I felt like a fool for ever buying in to it. The evidence they use is in my opinion quite pathetic, it is a work of one poor translation or addition of ideas from scripture added to another.
After that I then went on to reread much of the New Testament under this new light, and boy did everything seem to make a heck of a lot more sense. More importantly I could actually apply the scriptures more to my own personal life.
I as well, felt like I had been freed. The fear that people have that there is some unknown force that can move us to do evil, and we don't know when or where it will strike is really quite horrible, and it indeed takes away from the truth as to what we should actually be fearing, and that is God's wrath on those who do evil and follow their own selfish indulgences.
I know a lot of people who are preoccupied with the power of some fallen angel, and how it affects them. They live in fear of this being and what he might do to them or might lead them to do. It is pure nonsense. We are to fear the Lord and His powers, because He hates ungodliness, and we continually act ungodly.
People like Nick and Irene make it sound as if the only true adversary to God is a fallen angel, and that we are just mindless puppets under his control, following his lead.
You said, “If you bring out the background how you understood this new concept of denying the existence of real Satan and devil may be helpful to me.”
My new concept as you called it Adam, does not deny the existence of a real Satan or a real devil. That would be like saying there is nothing in the world that opposes God. Scripture tells us that our very nature is in opposition to God. And no wonder our nature is in opposition to God, for He is the all knowing, all powerful, righteous eternal Father, and we are the ignorant dependent mortal of which He created. Our children go through a period where they are in opposition to us as well, they think that they know that which they don't, and they are certainly often stubborn to learning the truth.
I hope this has helped a little. I look forward to discussing this more with you.
Love to you, Jodi
Hi Sis Jodi,
I am very much thankful to you for sharing your experience and the background of accepting these new revelations on Satan and Devil. I now can get some ideas on that. I do believe that no fallen angel has become Satan or devil. We are being tempted by our own old sinful nature which drags us. But God is the one who helps us to overcome them. I have also read the articles on Satan and devil on Christadelphian website but I was not so much convinced fully. Now I am going through Sir Isaac Newton Project on devil. I may understand them differently.As I see this debate getting so much hot and friction sum. Please be patient in conveying the message I have already noticed that in your posts.
May God bless you
Love and peace to you
AdamQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,18:05) Hi Jodi,
Should commonsense be our best guide to searching out the truth of scripture?
What some call commonsense others call evil.No scripture itself tests scripture just as diamonds test diamonds.
Nothing else is equally reliable as all else comes form the heads of foolish men.Of course any search of scripture confirms plentifully the existence of Satan.
So what is it that I should use in reading scripture?I shouldn't use my brain or think?
Adam….remember people at the time of Christ blamed a spiritual devil or demons as the cause for the mental illnesses and when someone had a epileptic attack and start contorting it appeared to look like something had taken over control of the person, and the pagan ideology of metaphysical beings which had crept into the Jewish life were applied to things they did not understand. Today in nations where there is good medical practices you don't see the demonic ideology as rampant as countries where the medical service are not available. Jesus spoke with the understood language of his day. In fact he being raised and taught by that language and customs may have just applied them to the situations .
Anyway check out the site i gave WJ and Jodi and see what you think.love and peace to you and your……..gene
Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,14:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,18:05) Hi Jodi,
Should commonsense be our best guide to searching out the truth of scripture?
What some call commonsense others call evil.No scripture itself tests scripture just as diamonds test diamonds.
Nothing else is equally reliable as all else comes form the heads of foolish men.Of course any search of scripture confirms plentifully the existence of Satan.
So what is it that I should use in reading scripture?I shouldn't use my brain or think?
Hi Jodi,
If you just filter it through your natural mind you will just find confusion that you would want to rationalise into more tolerable human concepts.But you cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus is who he said he was and his words are everlasting or he is not of the truth and should be ignored. There is no halfway house.
Quote (gollamudi @ July 14 2008,19:18) Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,06:18) Hi Jodi,
Thanks for sharing your personal information. I misunderstood when you mentioned Indian ancestory in your earlier post. Even the name Jodi is similar to our Indian names. Nice memories of yours of Rogue River. Have nice time when you go there. I do enjoy your posts especially posts on conception of Jesus and denying the existence of real Satan. Still I am not convinced on denying real Satan and devil. May be I have to go through the sites that our brother Gene mentioned in his post. I only request you to come down to my level who only believed the existence of real devil and Satan so far and explain Satan and devil. I know you also might have believed their existence earlier. If you bring out the background how you understood this new concept of denying the existence of real Satan and devil may be helpful to me.
Thanks and love to you
Adam
Hi Brother Adam,I am the person who is always asking why? Why did God have to do things this way and not another way, in regards to teaching mankind. I use to make up these little charts where I would have God and righteousness, man and sin, and then Satan as the concept of a fallen angel tempting us. The scriptures never seem to fit with the story I was told of the fallen angels, and the idea that an all knowing God would need to use a fallen angel for our progress into righteousness didn't seem right either.
A few years ago when I started my quest in search of truth, and had access to the computer, I began doing searches on different biblical topics. I would read different doctrines from different Christian churches and compare their understandings with the scriptures that they used. When I started a focus on the identity of Satan I came across the doctrine of the Christadelphians, who unlike any other church I found had a completely different understanding to the word satan.
Their doctrine brought my attention to the Young Literals translation of the bible, where you don't find the word Satan at all but only adversary. As well, the fact that the word angel simply meant messenger caught my interest as well and led me to do a word search using YLT on the word messenger. I found not one example of a jealous fallen messenger or messengers who interferes with what happens here on earth. The only messengers that deal with mankind in the bible are those who are following God's instruction. In my search I found that there were no scriptures that linked God's created messengers to that of the adversary against God or the devil/slanderer, we see in the bible.
I then went back to the other church doctrines and looked at what scriptures they used to show their understanding of the identity of Satan and the fall of angels. I found their use of scripture in great lack of proving their doctrine to be true. In all honesty, I felt like a fool for ever buying in to it. The evidence they use is in my opinion quite pathetic, it is a work of one poor translation or addition of ideas from scripture added to another.
After that I then went on to reread much of the New Testament under this new light, and boy did everything seem to make a heck of a lot more sense. More importantly I could actually apply the scriptures more to my own personal life.
I as well, felt like I had been freed. The fear that people have that there is some unknown force that can move us to do evil, and we don't know when or where it will strike is really quite horrible, and it indeed takes away from the truth as to what we should actually be fearing, and that is God's wrath on those who do evil and follow their own selfish indulgences.
I know a lot of people who are preoccupied with the power of some fallen angel, and how it affects them. They live in fear of this being and what he might do to them or might lead them to do. It is pure nonsense. We are to fear the Lord and His powers, because He hates ungodliness, and we continually act ungodly.
People like Nick and Irene make it sound as if the only true adversary to God is a fallen angel, and that we are just mindless puppets under his control, following his lead.
You said, “If you bring out the background how you understood this new concept of denying the existence of real Satan and devil may be helpful to me.”
My new concept as you called it Adam, does not deny the existence of a real Satan or a real devil. That would be like saying there is nothing in the world that opposes God. Scripture tells us that our very nature is in opposition to God. And no wonder our nature is in opposition to God, for He is the all knowing, all powerful, righteous eternal Father, and we are the ignorant dependent mortal of which He created. Our children go through a period where they are in opposition to us as well, they think that they know that which they don't, and they are certainly often stubborn to learning the truth.
I hope this has helped a little. I look forward to discussing this more with you.
Love to you, Jodi
Hi Sis Jodi,
I am very much thankful to you for sharing your experience and the background of accepting these new revelations on Satan and Devil. I now can get some ideas on that. I do believe that no fallen angel has become Satan or devil. We are being tempted by our own old sinful nature which drags us. But God is the one who helps us to overcome them. I have also read the articles on Satan and devil on Christadelphian website but I was not so much convinced fully. Now I am going through Sir Isaac Newton Project on devil. I may understand them differently.As I see this debate getting so much hot and friction sum. Please be patient in conveying the message I have already noticed that in your posts.
May God bless you
Love and peace to you
Adam[/quote]
Adam,I am so thankful that you have come to this forum. You are a blessing. I say this because of your demeanor it is well in the Spirit of God, and we can all learn from your example.
After you read Isaac's work, which hopefully I can do also a little tonight, I suggest reading through the mainstream doctrine that they put forth on Satan and reviewing through what they say.
Then I believe you should go over the scriptures once again and just let the Spirit of God guide you into what you think they mean.
If it is truth that one seeks, then there is comfort in knowing that God will bring us all into the unity of it soon enough. Until then we can learn from our diversity of that which we each think the truth may be. If anything, we are indeed learning patience amongst our fellow brethren.
Praise God for the work He does in men, that we all may grow into His character, for I know in time we will.
Peace and love to you Adam, and to all, Jodi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,20:29) Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,14:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,18:05) Hi Jodi,
Should commonsense be our best guide to searching out the truth of scripture?
What some call commonsense others call evil.No scripture itself tests scripture just as diamonds test diamonds.
Nothing else is equally reliable as all else comes form the heads of foolish men.Of course any search of scripture confirms plentifully the existence of Satan.
So what is it that I should use in reading scripture?I shouldn't use my brain or think?
Hi Jodi,
If you just filter it through your natural mind you will just find confusion that you would want to rationalise into more tolerable human concepts.But you cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus is who he said he was and his words are everlasting or he is not of the truth and should be ignored. There is no halfway house.
More tolerable human concepts?No sir, your the one who wants to follow more tolerable human concepts, blaming your evils on hidden celestial beings, instead of owning up to them yourself.
Do you even understand yourself, what you are saying?
When I ask questions like,
My child is selfish and self centered, is this because she is possessed by an evil fallen angel or is it because of her God given nature?
What sort of 'thinking' would you call that?
This is all sort of funny, I just recollected the time where someone on this forum told me, I think it might of been Irene, or maybe it was you, that my problem was “you think to much.”
Dam it Jodi, would you stop thinking so much.
Nick….is that what you do? to produce all the confusion you produce and stop any growth that can be had by others. Tell me what do you think when someone is mentally ill, or has a by- polar disorder do you equate that to demoniacs or evil spirits of some kind. If you lived at the time of Christ you certainly would have. Why did God forbid Israel to believe in or practice divinations and witch crafts and worshiping of idols which is nothing nothing more idolatry all the pagan nations practiced and believed in these things, but God drove out those nations because of the false practices and false beliefs in demons and evil spirits moving in and out of there lives. These false beliefs cause delusions in the mind of people and when people do somethinf wrong they say the devil made me do it, which is only an excuse for their own behavior themselves, the evil is not outside of man its inside.
Nick…..it's you who lacks the understanding here not us. You must read the bible in and under the circumstances and conditions it was written in, and those are not the way it is now Knowledge has greatly increased from that time to now, and believe it or not (TRUE KNOWLEDGE) has increased.
Hi GB,
If the gospel of Jesus was only true in the time it was written
why does it fascinate you now?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,21:44) Hi GB,
If the gospel of Jesus was only true in the time it was written
why does it fascinate you now?
I believe Gene is saying that scripture can be better understood today given the knowledge that God has increased upon us. If God didn't have something left to work in man, such as knowledge that could benefit our understanding of scripture and life, then Yeshua would have returned a long time ago.Scripture wasn't only true back then, it is FAR better understood now, because man has, by God, exceeded in knowledge.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,21:48) Hi GB,
So your knowledge is greater than that of Jesus?
Oh, yes, because Yeshua is a sitting duck in heaven at YHWH's right hand, learning nothing.Why do you waist your breath and our time with stupid questions?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2008,16:48) Hi GB,
So your knowledge is greater than that of Jesus?
NHAmen!
That is the problem they have. It was not just the people of the day that percieved certain mental illnesses, lunacy or incidences of the deaf or mute as possesion of demons or unclean spirits, but it was the Lord Jesus himself that spoke to them and asked for their name and told them to tell no man that he was the Christ after he cast them out.
This is exactly what Yeshua meant when he said…
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matt 13:15
WJ
Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,17:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,21:44) Hi GB,
If the gospel of Jesus was only true in the time it was written
why does it fascinate you now?
I believe Gene is saying that scripture can be better understood today given the knowledge that God has increased upon us. If God didn't have something left to work in man, such as knowledge that could benefit our understanding of scripture and life, then Yeshua would have returned a long time ago.Scripture wasn't only true back then, it is FAR better understood now, because man has, by God, exceeded in knowledge.
JodiNo, scripture is being attacked more than ever before.
100s of Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators who dedicated their entire lives and many of them even died for their cause in bringing us the modern translations that we have and none that I know of interpret them the way you and GB do.
Man exceeding in knowledge does not bring revelation to the Scriptures.
WJ
WJ….neither does stupidity increase understanding, and if your so called 100 Scholars were so right why do we have thousands of different translations and different denominations them. They cant all be right seeing they differ from one another so much, so i guess the 100 Scholars screwed up some where right. You need to read Misquoting Jesus, and you might not have so great a view of your 100 scholars, and by the way the errors in the book is clearly seen in text we now have. That many the 100 scholars were interrupting and misinterpreting Scriptures , O and i might add, adding there trinitarian views by altering word adding and omitting words and moving comas to give their own meanings to the text.
Anyone who believes the bibles we have are totally accurate is decieved. Just look at the margins in most bibles and you cant even read on paragraph without hardly seeing a word added or not in original text all over the place. So don't give us this “100 Scholars” couldn't be wrong garbage.
To think knowledge and understand about mental illness haven't given us a more clearer understanding about mans mental behavior and causes for it other then (DEMON POSSESSIONS) is pure stupidity.
Those people in the time of Christ did (NOT) have the understanding like we DO and attributed all mental illness to demonic possessions as well as other sickness as so. Let me tell you this also Jesus was educated and brought up in that society and learned their language and customs and spoke it. If he would have said this person has a mental illiness they would not even understood what he talking about.
AS far a demons talking , If you understood people can have multiple personality disorders and is dealt with all the time with psychologists, and it a miss function of the brain causing the problem and can many times be dealt with through medicines or psychiatric care. It's not a bunch of demon spirits going around screwing up people, those pagan ideas were part of that time and culture and had there origins in pagan idolatresses and practices.
IMO………..gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2008,22:24) Quote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,17:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,21:44) Hi GB,
If the gospel of Jesus was only true in the time it was written
why does it fascinate you now?
I believe Gene is saying that scripture can be better understood today given the knowledge that God has increased upon us. If God didn't have something left to work in man, such as knowledge that could benefit our understanding of scripture and life, then Yeshua would have returned a long time ago.Scripture wasn't only true back then, it is FAR better understood now, because man has, by God, exceeded in knowledge.
JodiNo, scripture is being attacked more than ever before.
100s of Hebrew and Greek scholars and commentators who dedicated their entire lives and many of them even died for their cause in bringing us the modern translations that we have and none that I know of interpret them the way you and GB do.
Man exceeding in knowledge does not bring revelation to the Scriptures.
WJ
Good Morning WJ,I am sorry that my understanding of scripture bothers you so much. We are all passionate about what we believe, so I can understand your position.
Knowing that the English word satan was created out of the Hebrew word adversary is a good start.
There are many scholars that disagree with the scholars you like to give credit to knowing the undeniable truth.
I just read something very interesting. The Hebrews, when story telling, as early as back in the 6th century BCE, would refer to God's messengers as Satan's, because they were ADVERSARIES who came to discipline them on behalf of God.
This is no big surprise since we see God's messengers even being called Satan in the bible.
Nu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
Here we see that the Lord stirs up Satans
1Ki 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
1Ki 11:23 And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:
WJ I want the bible not scholars, to tell me where a sinful angel against God is shown to represent an adversary, who was given the NAME adversary.
The reason why I go over things again and again is because people ignore them, and until they comment on each thing specifically and tell me their opinion as to a better understanding then I will just continue repeating myself. I'm sorry if that annoys you.
I can see why this is all so difficult for people, a change in understanding just a few words in the bible, can change their whole outlook and understanding of the bible. Which when one establishes what they believe is a TRUTH, they often feel a closer connection to God. If that TRUTH then becomes compromised they take it as a direct assault on their progressed relationship with God.
It is rather interesting how you seem to be so upset with my understanding. I think that people's understanding that God would torment people for an eternity is upsetting for it defiles the loving character and intelligence and power of God.
But this?
Me saying that man alone is fully responsible for his sins?People keep saying in so many words that my understanding is dangerous, that Satan/fallen angel, is working in me, or that he is going to come and get me.
I find this interesting that in EVERY instance it has always been the POWER”S of Satan/fallen angel that I need to turn away from. No mention of turning to God and asking for His powers to help me, just a warning about Satan.
You all seem to want to preach how grand and powerful this Satan character is. I find that bothersome.
Your understanding I see as a stumbling block, because people dwell on Fearing this character, when the supernatural being we need to be fearing is God.
When we sin we should be fearful of God's instruction.
It is very unfruitful to have the mind preoccupied with a powerful sinful being that can affect you without you even knowing it, rather then having your mind focused on asking God to help us daily in denying our tempting flesh.
People say, the greatest power of Satan/fallen angel, is that he can trick people into believing he is not real.
No offense people but this is the stupidest argument I have ever heard, because it does nothing but give man every right to blame his sins onto someone else.
WJ I want to address your comments on the long post that you wrote to me. Your are portraying much of my understanding, incorrectly and so I need to clarify a few things. Hopefully I will get the chance to do that later today.
Meanwhile, if you could show me in scripture where an adversary is identified directly to being a sinful angel that manipulates us I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks
Hello,
This is a new subject for me to post in. I haven't read many of the posts here so please forgive me if this passage has already been throughly hashed through. It probably has, so if any can lead me to the page(s) of those posts I would be grateful. My understanding of the following passage is that evil spirits can exist within a man and are subject to Christ, can exit the man and enter pigs. These evil spirits would not be a part of the natural man but something from the spirit world that could torment man and dwell within him.Matthew 8:28-34
28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.These verbs “came” and “went” are written in the active voice in the greek and therefore the subject is doing the action themself and not written in the passive voice which is used when the action is being done to the subject.
For example: “And they came out and went into the swine…”
Since “came” and “went” are written in the active voice it tells us that the “demons” themselves came out by their own action and they went into the swine by their own actions. Of course, they were doing these actions under the authority of Christ.
I do not see this particular passage as mental illness that doctors today would just take care of with medicine. A mental illness does not do its own coming out of a man and then do its own entering into pigs. This passage is about something far different, IMO.
Thank you for your thoughts,
LUHi,
It is sad to see men rejecting Jesus as the Truth and the Word as truth.
Men have always preferred their own ideas to what is writtenQuote (Jodi @ July 15 2008,10:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,15:13) Hi Jodi,
Genesis is a record of events.
Men are vessels, even pigs and donkeys are vessels.
Jesus spent much of his last few years casting out demonic spirits.
Yes men and all animals are carriers of diseases.If you mentioning the donkey is to refer to what happened in Numbers, that is not relevant here, it is completely different then what transpired in Genesis.
Where in scripture does it show that the word 'spirit' in these scriptures represent some sort of invisible flying being that holds the same powers of God able to inflict man with infirmities?
Why can't the serpent be a symbol of something and not a vessel?
What scripture do you have that says the serpent acted as a vessel?
The punishment given to the serpent, was given to the serpent. There was no punishment given to a hidden being.
Why do you deny Mark 7?
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
What do you take this to mean?
Hi Jodi,
We await your explanation on the donkey and the Job 1-2 details.
Meanwhile you as asked.
Mk7
18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;19Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
So what enters a man here is physical. It is food and drink and it finishes in the loo, while the inside of the cup needs cleansing from uninvited guests we are born with and have given life by our choices to sin. The woman is true Israel [Rev] and Satan has always attacked her weak spots. Praise God we are to be given the ability rather to crush him. [Rom 16.20]
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