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Hi Jodi,
Genesis is a record of events.
Men are vessels, even pigs and donkeys are vessels.
Jesus spent much of his last few years casting out demonic spirits.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,15:13) Hi Jodi,
Genesis is a record of events.
Men are vessels, even pigs and donkeys are vessels.
Jesus spent much of his last few years casting out demonic spirits.
Yes men and all animals are carriers of diseases.If you mentioning the donkey is to refer to what happened in Numbers, that is not relevant here, it is completely different then what transpired in Genesis.
Where in scripture does it show that the word 'spirit' in these scriptures represent some sort of invisible flying being that holds the same powers of God able to inflict man with infirmities?
Why can't the serpent be a symbol of something and not a vessel?
What scripture do you have that says the serpent acted as a vessel?
The punishment given to the serpent, was given to the serpent. There was no punishment given to a hidden being.
Why do you deny Mark 7?
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
What do you take this to mean?
Hi JOdi ,
We do not have the right to allegorise scripture to satify our doctrines.
It must be allowed to speak for itself as support itself as it is truth.
Written by men with the Spirit of God it is sacred food unto our minds.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,15:37) Hi JOdi ,
We do not have the right to allegorise scripture to satify our doctrines.
It must be allowed to speak for itself as support itself as it is truth.
Written by men with the Spirit of God it is sacred food unto our minds.
And WHAT doctrine is it that I go by? Your the one who follows a doctrine, I follow that which scripture tells me.There is not a scripture that says that we are at enmity with hidden evil celestial beings.
The mind of man is at enmity with God, that is clear scripture. The serpent's seed was at enmity with the woman's seed, which the woman's seed crushed.
Jesus destroyed the enmity that was in our flesh. Put these together and what do you have? The identity of the serpent.
As well,
One man sin entered the world. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not deceived. Put these together and what do you have? The identity of the serpent.
As well,
Man is likened to a snake for being a liar. Since we don't see sinful angels in the bible, neither do we see them likened to serpents.
I take scriptures and apply them to others.
What do you do? IMO You weasel around.
Hi Jodi,
Are we allowed to use inference and draw conclusions to then hold up as greater than what is written?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,16:13) Hi Jodi,
Are we allowed to use inference and draw conclusions to then hold up as greater than what is written?
Hi Nick,I take scripture and apply them to others to form an understanding of that which God is trying to reveal.
As even Jesus taught, some people just cannot understand the deeper meaning of things, they are blind and cannot hear.
Hi JOdi,
How can you be so sure the understandings you have gained are from God?
Everyone thinks the same but your ideas differ from most.Jodi
First of all you go on just posting the same ole apologetics and twisting of the scriptures creating delusions of sickness, illness and infections as being evil spirits or demons, rather than the evil spirits or demons causing the sickness.
You fail to even look at the scriptures that stare you in the face claiming that demonic spirits exist. Instead you try to pawn off on us your own misconceptions that contradict 100s of Greek and Hebrew scholars that give us clear definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words for satan, devils, the dragon, serpent, demons and evil spirits which clearly show that they are sentient spirit beings and not man.
You go on with this psychological babble about man being mad and that Yeshua carried on a conversation with demonic spirits which you say is 1000s of mental illnesses or infections (for his name was legion which in the Greek means over 6000 soldiers) and that Yeshua gave permission to this mans mental illnesses or infections to leave the man and go into 2000 swine causing them to commit suicide. Then you infer that this “legion” 6000+ infections or mental illnesses are the unclean spirits of the man himself, and are not real sentient spirit beings called demons. You use one or two scriptures where Yeshua was speaking metaphorically to humans who were carrying out satan’s will like Judas or speaking satan’s words like Peter to establish your pagan doctrine claiming that men are satans, and worse you say God is satan. This is plain manmade hogwash and committing serious violence on the scriptures.
Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,14:23) YLT
5:13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea — and they were about two thousand — and they were choked in the sea.Yeshua REBUKED a woman's FEVER, now why would Jesus be SPEAKING to a bug that causes a fever?
Lu 4:39 So He stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. And immediately she arose and served them.
Why would Jesus talk to the wind?
Mt 8:26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
Yes Yeshua could speak to the elements after all he made them. But this in no way explains Yeshua giving permission to the Legion in the demoniac that asked to go into swine.
The fever didn’t talk to Yeshua did it? The wind didn’t talk to Yeshua did it? In either one of those examples did the sickness or infections give Yeshua their name? Or did Yeshua ask for their name? Yeshua also spoke to a fig tree and it withered because it didn’t bear fruit when it wasn’t supposed to at that time, and the tree withered and died.
None of this negates that there is a sentient being called satan who tempted Yeshua in the wilderness and who has a kingdom called a kingdom of darkness and who is a ruler in this present age.
Sicknesses, mental illnesses, infections and the like do not have a kingdom, nor does a single man or corporate man have a kingdom called the kingdom of darkness in which he rules. Nor does man know apart from a supernatural revelation from a demon or unclean spirits or the Holy Spirit that Yeshua is the Son of God.
And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. Mark 3:11
Note that these unclean spirits knew Yeshua was the Son of God.
And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known. Mark 3:12
If these unclean spirits were simply the men as you claim, and not evil sprits in the men ,then they had the same revelation that Peter had in which Jesus said, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven”. Matt 16:17
So if these unclean spirits were men then they would be considered flesh and blood, which means that according to your view the Father revealed to men who you say are “unclean spirits” or “demons” that Yeshua was the Son of God.
Here it is again…
And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; And “Suffered Not The Devils To Speak”, because they knew him.
Another thing to take note of in these passages and many others is that the writer makes a distinction between “healing the sick of various diseases” and “casting out devils”, again proving your point wrong that unclean spirits or devils is simply “mental illnesses” or “sicknesses”, or “infections” that make men go crazy!
And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have Power To Heal Sicknesses, **and** to Cast Out Devils: Mark 3:14, 15
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that Were Taken With Divers Diseases And Torments, **and** those which Were Possessed With Devils, and those Which Were Lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. Matt 4:24
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that Were Possessed With Devils: And He Cast Out The Spirits with his word, **and** Healed All That Were Sick: Matt 8:16
And they Cast Out Many Devils, **and** Anointed With Oil Many That Were Sick, and healed them. Mark 6:13
Clearly showing a distinction in healing sicknesses and casting out unclean spirits or devils!
Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,14:23)
Mt 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.Mr 9:25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!”
Once again, WHO makes the dead, the dumb, the blind, the mute, the mad, the mentally confused. Does not scripture say the LORD does these things? He does so by the infliction of unclean spirits, which are by all means seen as evil spirits unto the people being affected by them, and are also therefore referred to as being demons, another word in the Greek meaning evil spirit.
Jodi you should compare all scripture with scripture. So you are saying that God made the ‘deaf, dumb, blind, and mute”? I agree. But you say…
Quote He does so by the infliction of unclean spirits, which are by all means seen as evil spirits unto the people being affected by them, and are also therefore referred to as being demons, another word in the Greek meaning evil spirit. The problem with your view is that those that were deaf, dumb, blind and mute in the scriptures were deaf, dumb, blind and mute because they have “unclean spirits” or “devils’ not that they were “perceived” by the Hebrews as being the unclean spirits or demons. The reason this is so is, Yeshua commands the evil spirits to not return.
So if the deaf,
dumb and blind is men who are evil spirits as you say, then how do you explain a little baby that is born deaf or dumb or blind? Is that little baby an unclean spirit or does it have an unclean spirit or demon? How do you explain these differences? So Exodus 4:11 is ambiguoous concerning those who had unclean spirits that made them deaf, dumb and blind.Can light be darkness? Can Love be hate? Can good be evil? Yes God made all things, but he is not the author of evil. That would be confusion and we know God is not the author of confusion.
There is a kingdom of darkness that we as children of light have been translated out of. That kingdom has been around since the conflict in the Garden of Eden.
Satan for a time is the god of this world to those who have not been translated into the kingdom of Yeshua.
You still haven’t answered the questions.
How can a sickness or disease or infection carry on a conversation with Yeshua?
How can a sickness or disease or infection request to go into swine and Yeshua give it permission to go and cause 2000 swine to commit suicide?
Why would Yeshua ask for the devils name?
How can sickness or disease or infection have a kingdom?
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Jn 10:10
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. James 1:17
God has not changed. He is a good God and is Love. The works of evil are of satan and man and not from the hands of the Lord or else God's kingdom would be divided against itself.
Yeshua says there is none good but God. So how can God be an evil sprit?
The book of Job clearly shows the relationship of God as opposed to satan. YHWH can and does judge his people by allowing heathen nations as well as satan and the demons and devils known as unclean spirits to come against them and test them.
The Father doesn't tempt any man but has allowed satan to sift test and try him.
WJ
Jodi…..everyone does not think that your Ideas are different, There are others that have seen it that way and do see it the way you are saying, and what you said is true, Some people can not understand the deeper meaning of thing they are just blind and can get it.
I would put Issac Newtons understanding of scripture far above Nick's any day of the week a man who could speak and write Latin, Hebrew, Greek, and who spent most of his long life studying the bible and is Known for his reasoning abilities by everyone in the world is certainely worth considering. And he agree with your findings and I also agree with them. But no matter how much sense something makes those who lack the understanding can't get it. like Newton said the vulgar don't perceive it. But those who have higher perceptions do by this we know the spirit of truth from the spirit of error.Love and peace to you and yours………….. gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2008,12:13) Jodi…..everyone does not think that your Ideas are different, There are others that have seen it that way and do see it the way you are saying, and what you said is true, Some people can not understand the deeper meaning of thing they are just blind and can get it.
I would put Issac Newtons understanding of scripture far above Nick's any day of the week a man who could speak and write Latin, Hebrew, Greek, and who spent most of his long life studying the bible and is Known for his reasoning abilities by everyone in the world is certainely worth considering. And he agree with your findings and I also agree with them. But no matter how much sense something makes those who lack the understanding can't get it. like Newton said the vulgar don't perceive it. But those who have higher perceptions do by this we know the spirit of truth from the spirit of error.Love and peace to you and yours………….. gene
GBThis is totally gobly goop and is purely of an elitest attitude.
You and jodi are not the plumbline of truth here.
Everyone here can make the same claim as you.
WJ…..would you do me a favor? go to the Issac Newton project and look up Newtons reason for saying there is no beings who are spirit demons and devils or Satan. Read it all and come and tell us what you think. I for one agree with Newton on this. He was a brilliant man of God and wrote more on the bible then anything else.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2008,12:20) WJ…..would you do me a favor? go to the Issac Newton project and look up Newtons reason for saying there is no beings who are spirit demons and devils or Satan. Read it all and come and tell us what you think. I for one agree with Newton on this. He was a brilliant man of God and wrote more on the bible then anything else.
GBI dont need to read Isaac Newtons project no more than I need to check into the “Divinci code”.
I have the scriptures which define my beliefs.
But if you give me the link I may check it out.
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2008,16:29) Hi JOdi,
How can you be so sure the understandings you have gained are from God?
Everyone thinks the same but your ideas differ from most.
Hi Nick,I believe that when we read scripture one can only discern the truth by that which comes to make the best sense to them.
I don't argue that what I believe comes from God, as if I hold the undeniable truth.
I argue that my understanding of scripture makes better sense then others. The reason why I am here on this forum is that everyone sees things and understands things differently. By discussing things with others I can affirm my beliefs more, or I can learn something that makes my understanding change completely.
I enjoy our discussions Nick. This forum has caused me to look deeper into scripture. I look forward to many more discussions.
Hi Jodi,
Should commonsense be our best guide to searching out the truth of scripture?
What some call commonsense others call evil.No scripture itself tests scripture just as diamonds test diamonds.
Nothing else is equally reliable as all else comes form the heads of foolish men.Of course any search of scripture confirms plentifully the existence of Satan.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 14 2008,17:20) WJ…..would you do me a favor? go to the Issac Newton project and look up Newtons reason for saying there is no beings who are spirit demons and devils or Satan. Read it all and come and tell us what you think. I for one agree with Newton on this. He was a brilliant man of God and wrote more on the bible then anything else.
Hi Gene,I have yet to read anything on Isaac Newton's work on the bible. I cannot wait to see what he has to say!
Jodi…..type in …Isaac Newton Theology, Prophesy…, and go to his writings on the devil and read it His findings are Just like your i believe from what you wrote and I agree with them also.
peace…….gene
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