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Adam….Can you help Nick see that Peter was not really Satan being and that the Pharisees were not really children of the devil or Satan, they Just were acting as a devil or a Satan because there is no real devil Lucifer or a Satan being. Jesus said Satan was a lier and a thief from the beginning, it abode not in the truth because the truth was not in it . Satan is a spirit of adversity that is in the children of disobedience. And if you understand a spirit can be intellect or word, the intellect of a adversary is a Satan, no matter who it is. Even God can be an adversary at times as in the case of Job. It was God who did all that to Job and if you read the end of the book you will see it plainly says it. It just my opinion but I do not believe there is a being who is a devil. I agree with Jodi on this.
Hi brother Nick,
I agree with you on real Satan and devil. The problem here is we are confused with the word “Satan” which means “adversary” is always not refers to the real Satan it also refers to sin or a person who is acting like an adversary. I think brother Gene and yourself are contradcting in applying the meaning of Satan in different contexts. I know I can not agree fully with brother Gene and sis Jodi on this topic.
We have to produce more evidence to prove our way of interpretation of scriptures.
Blessings
AdamHiGM,
Some get confused because Satan is given names that describe his activities and not a personal name.
Such is the case with most spirit beings though Michael, Gabriel and the other sons of God differ.
But that is also the same with I AM WHO AM and with the Word.Hi brother Nick,
My honest questions to you:
1. Whether this Satan or devil was created by God as himself or he became later?
2. Whether God created evil spirits which torment humanbeings?Hi GM,
In that vein then my thoughts for what they are worth.God is fair.
Eph6
9And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.Col4
1Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.Given that he has already been judged and his fate written he must have used his freedom of choice somehow somewhere to oppose God.
He is a liar and a murderer from the beginning and thus before Genesis.
Yet our fair and patient God still allowed him to roam earth and meet with him as seen in Job1-2
Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Hi brother Nick,
I agree with you that Satan, the Old Serpent is also called the Dragon in Rev 12, is the Prince of this world and god of this world as mentioned in Eph 2.But my question to you is whether he was created as an angel prior to becoming as Satan (the Adversary)?
hi GM,
Who knows?
Some are called sons of God and he is seen with them in Jb 1-2
Some are called princes especially in Daniel and he is called a prince.Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Note there that is one called the prince of princes.
and there is also Messiah the prince in Daniel.Messiah Jesus is known as the prince of peace and the prince of life.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,03:38) hi GM,
Who knows?
Some are called sons of God and he is seen with them in Jb 1-2
Some are called princes especially in Daniel and he is called a prince.Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Note there that is one called the prince of princes.
and there is also Messiah the prince in Daniel.Messiah Jesus is known as the prince of peace and the prince of life.
Nick, prince is also translated as ruler.All throughout the bible we see RULERS on earth being judged by God because their arrogance got the better of them.
They ascend on high thinking that they are gods, but God, as the bible repeatedly shows, cuts them down and humbles them.
There are no scriptures however about an angel who was in heaven and fell from heaven because he wanted to be a god in heaven. There are no scriptures that say that this character then became the prince of a hidden dark kingdom that has power and influence over our world.
The ruler of this world is judged, the adversary of this world is judged. Who are we told is this adversary? The man who follows not the ways of God but the ways of man.
Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,04:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,03:38) hi GM,
Who knows?
Some are called sons of God and he is seen with them in Jb 1-2
Some are called princes especially in Daniel and he is called a prince.Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Note there that is one called the prince of princes.
and there is also Messiah the prince in Daniel.Messiah Jesus is known as the prince of peace and the prince of life.
Nick, prince is also translated as ruler.All throughout the bible we see RULERS on earth being judged by God because their arrogance got the better of them.
They ascend on high thinking that they are gods, but God, as the bible repeatedly shows, cuts them down and humbles them.
There are no scriptures however about an angel who was in heaven and fell from heaven because he wanted to be a god in heaven. There are no scriptures that say that this character then became the prince of a hidden dark kingdom that has power and influence over our world.
The ruler of this world is judged, the adversary of this world is judged. Who are we told is this adversary? The man who follows not the ways of God but the ways of man.
Read the account of JobQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2008,20:14) Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,14:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2008,19:27) Hi Jodi,
We should not get confused.There are satans and Satan.
There are devils and The Devil.
So why give one fallen being two proper names, and where in scripture are we told the identity that the 'Satan' and the 'Devil'
is a sinful fallen angel who was jealous of God?
Hi Jodi,
Scripture gives him several.REV20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And of course there is the god of this world, the accuser of the brethren, the prince…
Ephesians 2:2
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.WHY?
Who knows.
Perhaps they idenfify his roles.
Hi Nick,Why must you not hear what Ephesians is telling you?
'the ways of this world'
'prince/ruler of the kingdom of the air'
'the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient'
You take these scriptures an apply them as fitting with a doctrine, and not with actual scriptures.
Is there a scripture that says the ways of this world are according to sinful angels? No, we have Christ's words that say, “”Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!“
It is not woe to man and the fallen angels through whom sin comes it is woe to man.
Yes, angels come and go from God's abode to earth, they travel through the air. Does scripture ever tell us that sinful angels are hovering around us in the air ready to manipulate our minds? No. Christ says, “What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.”
Scripture never says what you claim to believe, that is, sinful angels can draw people into sin. That is from a man made doctrine.
Man speaks, and through what and through where does his words travel? Man's words are carried and passed through the air. Man is said to be the devil, therefore the devil has power and rules the air. Devil represents a slandering man. We do not need to watch out for fallen angels invisible in the air. We need to watch out as scripture warns us for the devil, the false prophets and their false doctrine, which travels from the prophets mouth through the air and into our ears. Why, because these are the things that keep our minds from the truth.
What is the 'spirit' that works in man to make him disobedient?
As Christ tells us, we are disobedient according to our own hearts and minds. It is by the spirit of man, who follows not the way of God that causes man to sin.
Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world
We use to live according to our flesh, in which we were dead because of our sins. The ways of this world are not according to sinful fallen angels but according to man giving in to his flesh.
There is no scripture that says man gives into his flesh because fallen angels draw him to do so.
Why does man give into his flesh in a manner that causes him to sin?
Does the bible say that fallen angels cause us to be self centered and selfish?
No, it doesn't and thank goodness, because then I would have to look in my children's eyes and see their behavior as resulting from a sinful angels manipulation.
My instruction and teaching to my children on patience, self control, sharing and compassion for others, is not in labor to work against a sinful angels manipulation because he holds a grudge and is jealous against God.
Must we not forget that we are created creatures, that in order to live we must serve our fleshly needs? Humans by nature are given the instincts necessary for their survival, otherwise we could not populate and continue on as a species and learn what God wants us to learn.
The complexity of our design by God, is so much greater then anything else God created on this earth. If God is love and His desire is for us to live peaceful and fulfilled lives, then we must conclude that righteousness is something that the created creature such as ourselves, MUST learn. Latest in brain research shows that our brains in the center are like that of animals, what sets us apart is the part of the brain that lies behind our forehead. Through time and proper instruction does this brain learn righteousness.
We are born starting out as self centered little creatures. Until the outside of the brain is properly instructed it follows it’s inner brain that is self serving by nature because it has to be in order to survive. The mind can grow in intelligence and remain in this state of selfishness. If a person of this nature is given any sort of power or authority, evilness in our world grows. On the other hand the mind that grows in intelligence but also in the fruits of God’s Spirit, such as self control, patience, kindness, compassion and love, righteousness is accomplished and lives. Selfishness in the newly born human is necessary for it’s survival, but this self centeredness must then be properly trained in a manner where the individual learns to satisfy it’s needs and desires, but in a socially acceptable and respectable manner.
Nick, I think I see where your understanding stems from. You see man as created in God’s likeness, and God would not create us in the beginning to have a part of us be evil. According to your belief we were influenced in the beginning by an outside source to be evil.
What scriptures do you draw that makes you believe that the serpent represents manipulation of a fallen angel? Ezekiel 28, I believe makes much greater sense if you liken the King as being a type of ‘first man’ rather then a fallen angel. According to scripture, the serpent seems more convincingly a symbol related to the first man, and not some fallen angel.
The bible tells us that through one man sin entered the world and that Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived. Scripture never says that through a fallen angel sin entered the man, or influenced the man to bring sin into the world. The serpent must represent the mind that was in Adam. The same mind that we see in our children, those little people who have no idea of reality or truth. Is it really hard to believe that Adam could have been the liar from the beginning?
Nick do you have children, or can you remember how you thought when you were a teenager? Was your ways of error, due to your undeveloped sense of self and lack of understanding reality, or was it due to fallen angel manipulation?
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,10:38) Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,04:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,03:38) hi GM,
Who knows?
Some are called sons of God and he is seen with them in Jb 1-2
Some are called princes especially in Daniel and he is called a prince.Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Note there that is one called the prince of princes.
and there is also Messiah the prince in Daniel.Messiah Jesus is known as the prince of peace and the prince of life.
Nick, prince is also translated as ruler.All throughout the bible we see RULERS on earth being judged by God because their arrogance got the better of them.
They ascend on high thinking that they are gods, but God, as the bible repeatedly shows, cuts them down and humbles them.
There are no scriptures however about an angel who was in heaven and fell from heaven because he wanted to be a god in heaven. There are no scriptures that say that this character then became the prince of a hidden dark kingdom that has power and influence over our world.
The ruler of this world is judged, the adversary of this world is judged. Who are we told is this adversary? The man who follows not the ways of God but the ways of man.
Read the account of Job
Thanks DK,But I have already read it, and understand it in what I believe is the proper context, which would be taking into account when and who for, that Job was written, which would be the Israelites, who were considered 'children of God.' Those following the law, where considered to be like the angels, 'Son's of God.' If you view other scriptures in other places in the bible you would see that to 'present yourself to the Lord,' meant to the Israelites to go speak with God, but with a priest who was God's mediator.
What you have in Job, according to an Israelite reading Job back in the day, would be some men going to talk to God, but doing so through a priest, and a jealous man of Job, a vagabond, tagging along with them, wanting to stir up trouble for Job.
The conversation going on between Satan and the Lord is a conversation going on between two men, an adversary to Job, and a priest who's words represent the Lord's.
Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,06:10) Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,10:38) Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,04:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,03:38) hi GM,
Who knows?
Some are called sons of God and he is seen with them in Jb 1-2
Some are called princes especially in Daniel and he is called a prince.Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Note there that is one called the prince of princes.
and there is also Messiah the prince in Daniel.Messiah Jesus is known as the prince of peace and the prince of life.
Nick, prince is also translated as ruler.All throughout the bible we see RULERS on earth being judged by God because their arrogance got the better of them.
They ascend on high thinking that they are gods, but God, as the bible repeatedly shows, cuts them down and humbles them.
There are no scriptures however about an angel who was in heaven and fell from heaven because he wanted to be a god in heaven. There are no scriptures that say that this character then became the prince of a hidden dark kingdom that has power and influence over our world.
The ruler of this world is judged, the adversary of this world is judged. Who are we told is this adversary? The man who follows not the ways of God but the ways of man.
Read the account of Job
Thanks DK,But I have already read it, and understand it in what I believe is the proper context, which would be taking into account when and who for, that Job was written, which would be the Israelites, who were considered 'children of God.' Those following the law, where considered to be like the angels, 'Son's of God.' If you view other scriptures in other places in the bible you would see that to 'present yourself to the Lord,' meant to the Israelites to go speak with God, but with a priest who was God's mediator.
What you have in Job, according to an Israelite reading Job back in the day, would be some men going to talk to God, but doing so through a priest, and a jealous man of Job, a vagabond, tagging along with them, wanting to stir up trouble for Job.
The conversation going on between Satan and the Lord is a conversation going on between two men, an adversary to Job, and a priest who's words represent the Lord's.
Hi Jodi,That is an iteresting take on Job.
I never heard anyone tell it that way before.I like it though.
Tim
Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,06:10) Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,10:38) Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,04:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,03:38) hi GM,
Who knows?
Some are called sons of God and he is seen with them in Jb 1-2
Some are called princes especially in Daniel and he is called a prince.Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Note there that is one called the prince of princes.
and there is also Messiah the prince in Daniel.Messiah Jesus is known as the prince of peace and the prince of life.
Nick, prince is also translated as ruler.All throughout the bible we see RULERS on earth being judged by God because their arrogance got the better of them.
They ascend on high thinking that they are gods, but God, as the bible repeatedly shows, cuts them down and humbles them.
There are no scriptures however about an angel who was in heaven and fell from heaven because he wanted to be a god in heaven. There are no scriptures that say that this character then became the prince of a hidden dark kingdom that has power and influence over our world.
The ruler of this world is judged, the adversary of this world is judged. Who are we told is this adversary? The man who follows not the ways of God but the ways of man.
Read the account of Job
Thanks DK,But I have already read it, and understand it in what I believe is the proper context, which would be taking into account when and who for, that Job was written, which would be the Israelites, who were considered 'children of God.' Those following the law, where considered to be like the angels, 'Son's of God.' If you view other scriptures in other places in the bible you would see that to 'present yourself to the Lord,' meant to the Israelites to go speak with God, but with a priest who was God's mediator.
What you have in Job, according to an Israelite reading Job back in the day, would be some men going to talk to God, but doing so through a priest, and a jealous man of Job, a vagabond, tagging along with them, wanting to stir up trouble for Job.
The conversation going on between Satan and the Lord is a conversation going on between two men, an adversary to Job, and a priest who's words represent the Lord's.
Hi Jodi,
So this is a conversation between two men?” 6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
You walk in speculative territory here all in defence of rejection of scripture?
Why?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,13:39) Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,06:10) Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,10:38) Quote (Jodi @ July 12 2008,04:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,03:38) hi GM,
Who knows?
Some are called sons of God and he is seen with them in Jb 1-2
Some are called princes especially in Daniel and he is called a prince.Jn16
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.Note there that is one called the prince of princes.
and there is also Messiah the prince in Daniel.Messiah Jesus is known as the prince of peace and the prince of life.
Nick, prince is also translated as ruler.All throughout the bible we see RULERS on earth being judged by God because their arrogance got the better of them.
They ascend on high thinking that they are gods, but God, as the bible repeatedly shows, cuts them down and humbles them.
There are no scriptures however about an angel who was in heaven and fell from heaven because he wanted to be a god in heaven. There are no scriptures that say that this character then became the prince of a hidden dark kingdom that has power and influence over our world.
The ruler of this world is judged, the adversary of this world is judged. Who are we told is this adversary? The man who follows not the ways of God but the ways of man.
Read the account of Job
Thanks DK,But I have already read it, and understand it in what I believe is the proper context, which would be taking into account when and who for, that Job was written, which would be the Israelites, who were considered 'children of God.' Those following the law, where considered to be like the angels, 'Son's of God.' If you view other scriptures in other places in the bible you would see that to 'present yourself to the Lord,' meant to the Israelites to go speak with God, but with a priest who was God's mediator.
What you have in Job, according to an Israelite reading Job back in the day, would be some men going to talk to God, but doing so through a priest, and a jealous man of Job, a vagabond, tagging along with them, wanting to stir up trouble for Job.
The conversation going on between Satan and the Lord is a conversation going on between two men, an adversary to Job, and a priest who's words represent the Lord's.
Hi Jodi,
So this is a conversation between two men?” 6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
You walk in speculative territory here all in defence of rejection of scripture?
Why?
Nick before you go asking me more questions, why don't you go back and bother to answer a few of mine.Don't accuse me of walking in speculative territory, your the one who chooses to follow a doctrine, rather then clear scriptures.
Satan means adversary, men can be adversaries to other men.
Son's of God are also said to be men.
Levite Priests were God's mediators.
To 'present yourself before the Lord,' meant that you were an Israelite going to the appointed place to speak with the appointed priest.
So to an Israelite the story of Job would make complete sense, that it would be two men talking, but yet the actual conversation going on would be between the adversary and the Lord.
Do you not understand the concept of a mediator?
The actual text of walking the earth, could just as well be walking the land.
The entire concept of fallen angels is completely SPECULATIVE.
Your perspective on scripture comes from a MAN MADE STORY!
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