Satan

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Can sin grow?
Can sin mutate?
Sounds like something living.

Did God create man with sin as an integral aspect of his nature?

Was he not made in the image of GOD then?

If not how is man like God?

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ….read the last part of Job, it plainly say God brought all this evil on Job, if you notice it wasn't even Satan who brought the subject of Job, is was God , have you considered my servant Job, God planned the whole thing from start to finish.

WJ… when my son was around 10 he and a friend He played with were getting more into violent playing like pretnding to shoot one another and fighting each other wiith fale knives and swords ect. and I became concerned about their behavior. I had alway told my childern that guns and knives and fighting was evil I tried to teach them not to be like that bit with all the TV and Movies with so much violence in them they were becomming more agressive in nature, so i told a friend about it and i was getting a little concerend , He told he had that problem also with his kids and told me to go rent the movie faces of eath and make them watch it, so i did mind you this was real death not games, they had this one seen of a man they were going to give Him the electric chair the following day, and he was bragging and talking big the day before, and i tole the kids lets see how big he talks when the time comes, and when it did come He couldn't even hardly walk He was trimbling all over, and i remember my son saying Dad whay are they puting coton ball on his eyes and i tole because his eyes will pop out and the kids watche it in horrior as they executed him and i said see that what guns and knives and fighting and killing bringe about, thats the truth of
it, They both got up and left the room, zi never had that problem after that, So WJ you can talk about evil all you want but experiencing is the only true teacher, so evil serves a purpose in the end, it a real teacher, the horrors of evil have to be experienced to really be learn If this was not the case then GOD would be the biggest MONSTER who ever Lived to allow all this with out purpose. God knows what He is doing and when He want it to stop it will. The sunnier the better as far as i am concerned.

peace….gene

[NickHassan]

hmmm

God allows some testing by Satan.
We must be purified of evil.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..if you get the oringial hebrew where it say God created (pastense) you will find it should read, GOD creating them is in His image, shows a process taking place, we know the only one who ever was in his image was Jesus the first completed image of God , we all will become that image also until we all come to the image of Christ who is the image of God. Its is a ongoing process we being created in the image of God.

I read that on another wed site made sense.

peace…..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB
Gen1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created [1254]man in his own image, in the image of God created[1254] he him; male and female created he them.

Number 1254
Transliteration:
bara' {baw-raw'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
278
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
create 42, creator 3, choose 2, make 2, cut down 2, dispatch 1, done 1, make fat 1

Total: 54
Definition:
to create, shape, form
(Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
of heaven and earth
of individual man
of new conditions and circumstances
of transformations
(Niphal) to be created
of heaven and earth
of birth
of something new
of miracles
(Piel)
to cut down
to cut out
to be fat
(Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

  Fine.
Then God is still making men different from women and giving man dominion?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,09:18)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2008,10:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2008,04:38) Chosenone ….yes God did create Adversary's  or Satan's and God himself can be an adversary  at time saying to  go tell them i am against them.  Is there an actual being as a Satan i am not sure of that, I know Issac Newton at first thought there was but after a long study of the subject He concluded there was not such thing a Devil or Satan being, Remember Jesus said the Pharisees  were of their father the devil, does that mean the being the devil father them, No, they were just being adversary's and therefore took on the nature or image of a devil. They literally were not devils. The bible has a lot of symbolic language in it , and it can be confusing at times. peace to you…….gene GB Sicknesses, or infections or mental illness, or adversaries that are not spirit beings does not have a kingdom which Yeshua says satan has. Infections or the like do not carry on conversations. And Yeshua doesnt give them permision to cause 2 thousand swine to commit suicide unless they are spirit beings called demons, or Legion. Jodi teaches heresy. WJ People with mental illnesses cannot carry on conversations? People who suffer from multiple personalities, don't carry on conversations? Do you have any clue as to what a brain tumor can cause a person to say and do? My understanding is that the whole world lies under the wicked one, which is the man who does not want to follow God, and thus he is to God an adversary, a Satan. Are the kingdoms of the world that will rise and fall that we see in Daniel, evil because of the ways of man, or does scripture tell us that the kingdoms that rule the world are evil because of fallen celestial beings? Daniel 2:39 “After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.  40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron–for iron breaks and smashes everything–and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay. 44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. Mt 18:7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up. WHO IS THE DEVIL? Devil means liar, slanderer. The proud is someone who exaggerates and lies, making up stories he knows are not true to enlighten his own ego. Are we ever told in the bible of a sinful angel being proud and then manipulating people to have the same characteristic? Scripture shows that man himself is proud by his own nature, and thus is by his own nature a DEVIL! It is these proud arrogant devils that rule the world and are adversaries to God. James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. 3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. 7 All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8 but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. Mark 7:20 He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,  22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'” Romans 1:8 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,  30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Those who believe that fallen angels bring evil into our world are the ones committing heresy. These scriptures are CLEAR that God has given people over to a depraved mind, not over to the hidden manipulation of sinful angels. Instead of destroying sin, God let man's sin grow and mutate into greater more evil sins, all coming from within his own nature.

Jodi

Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,09:18)

People with mental illnesses cannot carry on conversations? People who suffer from multiple personalities, don't carry on conversations? Do you have any clue as to what a brain tumor can cause a person to say and do?

Jodi its not the demoniac that we are concerned with, it is Yeshua carrying on the converstation and giving the so called infection or mentel illness as you say, permision to go into swine, and the infection or illness to cause the 2000 swine to commit suicide.

Tell me since you know so much about madness and brain tumors, have you ever seen a doctor talking to one, or have you ever seen one leave and go into swine or enter another being?

None of the scriptures you quote is proof that satan is not an entity, while many scriptures prove that he is.

All they show is that man has an evil nature called the “old man”. But that doesnt mean man is satan or the devil or a demon. The Greek definitions for all these imply a living being and not some sickness or infection etc.

WJ

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2008,14:21)

Hi Jodi, Can sin grow? Can sin mutate? Sounds like something living. Did God create man with sin as an integral aspect of his nature? Was he not made in the image of GOD then? If not how is man like God?

The sin in man can grow,

The lust of the eyes can grow into an act of adultery.

Hatred out of jealousy can grow into murder.

Arrogance can grow into lies and deceit.

We were created in the likeness of God, that does not make us born without an inclination for sinning. We are the created and the unknowing, God is the eternal and the all knowing.

Eph 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2008,09:38)

WJ….read the last part of Job, it plainly say God brought all this evil on Job, if you notice it wasn't even Satan who brought the subject of Job, is was God , have you considered my servant Job, God planned the whole thing from start to finish. WJ… when my son was around 10  he and a friend He played with were getting more into violent playing like pretnding to shoot one another and fighting each other wiith fale knives and swords ect. and I became concerned about their behavior. I had alway told my childern that guns and knives and fighting was evil I tried to teach them not to be like that bit with all the TV and Movies with so much violence in them they were becomming more agressive in nature, so i told a friend about it and i was getting a little concerend , He told he had that problem also with his kids and told me to go rent the movie faces of eath and make them watch it, so i did mind you this was real death not games, they had this one seen of a man they were going to give Him the electric chair the following day, and he was bragging and talking big the day before, and i tole the kids lets see how big he talks when the time comes, and when it did come He couldn't even hardly walk He was trimbling all over, and i remember my son saying Dad whay are they puting coton ball on his eyes and i tole because his eyes will pop out and the kids watche it in horrior as they executed him and i said see that what guns and knives and fighting  and killing bringe about, thats the truth of it, They both got up and left the room, zi never had that problem after that, So WJ you can talk about evil all you want but experiencing is the only true teacher, so evil serves a purpose in the end, it a real teacher, the horrors of evil have to be experienced to really be learn If this was not the case then GOD would be the biggest MONSTER who ever Lived to allow all this with out purpose. God knows what He is doing and when He want it to stop it will. The sunnier the better as far as i am concerned. peace….gene

GB

Im sorry, but I think that it is sad you let your children watch that evil.

Then to somehow think that the “fear” you put in them was from God is horrible.

Tell me, did you sit them down to watch a XXX porn movie to show them how evil promiscuos sex is, so that they could see the beauty of being married???

God help us!

[NickHassan]

Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,09:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2008,14:21) Hi Jodi, Can sin grow? Can sin mutate? Sounds like something living. Did God create man with sin as an integral aspect of his nature? Was he not made in the image of GOD then? If not how is man like God? The sin in man can grow, The lust of the eyes can grow into an act of adultery. Hatred out of jealousy can grow into murder. Arrogance can grow into lies and deceit. We were created in the likeness of God, that does not make us born without an inclination for sinning. We are the created and the unknowing, God is the eternal and the all knowing. Eph 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else.

Hi Jodi,
Amazing.
And all this is of the man made in the image of God?

Jas 1
James 1:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I do not think lust came from God but from man's submission to dominion by the Satan in the Garden of Eden

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi all
And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, (sa`iyr) after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations. Lev 17:7

Hebrew word for ‘devils, “sa`iyr” which is a masculine noun and means;

2) he-goat, buck
a) as sacrificial animal
b) satyr, may refer to a demon possessed goat like the swine of Gadara (Mt. 8:30-32)

They sacrificed unto devils (shed), not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new [gods that] came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Deut 32:17

Hebrew word for ‘devils’, “shed” which is a masculine noun and means;

1) demon

And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils (sa`iyr), and for the calves which he had made. 2 Chron 11:15

Hebrew word for ‘devils, “sa`iyr” which is a masculine noun and means;

2) he-goat, buck
a) as sacrificial animal
b) satyr, may refer to a demon possessed goat like the swine of Gadara (Mt. 8:30-32)

Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils (shed), Pss 106:37

Hebrew word for ‘devils’, “shed” which is a masculine noun and means;

1) demon

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan (satan) came also among them.
satan Job 1:6

Hebrew word “{satan”, which is a masculine noun and means;

1) adversary, one who withstands
a) adversary (in general – personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary
a) Satan (as noun pr)

And they worshipped the dragon (drakon) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Re v 13:4

Hebrew word for ‘dragon’ is “drakon”, which is a masculine noun and means;

1) dragon, a great serpent, a name for Satan It is found 13 times in Revelations.

The scriptural evidence is overwhelming showing that satan, the devil is an entity, a being that is an enemy of God and man.

None of the definitions for devil, satan, demons, dragon, serpent etc. etc implies a sickness, mental illness, infection or the like.

This is a myth construed by men to attack the validity of the scriptures by twisting them and infering upon them. IMO

WJ

[chosenone]

Quote (dirtyknections @ July 09 2008,04:47)

Quote (chosenone @ July 08 2008,17:51) Isaiah 54:16.   Behold! I,I created the artificer who blows inyo the fire of coal,                    And brings forth an implement for his occupation.                    And I, I created the ruiner to harm. God created Satan, the “adversary”. How can anything exist that God did not creat?  Is there another creator? Blessings. look in more than one translation…and you will see what this scripture is saying brother Jerry

Hi dk, look in the “interlinear scripture analyser”, you will see the original Hebrew symbols and their meaning. Many different translations do not nessesarily impart truth.

Blessings.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2008,10:04)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2008,09:38) WJ….read the last part of Job, it plainly say God brought all this evil on Job, if you notice it wasn't even Satan who brought the subject of Job, is was God , have you considered my servant Job, God planned the whole thing from start to finish. WJ… when my son was around 10 he and a friend He played with were getting more into violent playing like pretnding to shoot one another and fighting each other wiith fale knives and swords ect. and I became concerned about their behavior. I had alway told my childern that guns and knives and fighting was evil I tried to teach them not to be like that bit with all the TV and Movies with so much violence in them they were becomming more agressive in nature, so i told a friend about it and i was getting a little concerend , He told he had that problem also with his kids and told me to go rent the movie faces of eath and make them watch it, so i did mind you this was real death not games, they had this one seen of a man they were going to give Him the electric chair the following day, and he was bragging and talking big the day before, and i tole the kids lets see how big he talks when the time comes, and when it did come He couldn't even hardly walk He was trimbling all over, and i remember my son saying Dad whay are they puting coton ball on his eyes and i tole because his eyes will pop out and the kids watche it in horrior as they executed him and i said see that what guns and knives and fighting and killing bringe about, thats the truth of it, They both got up and left the room, zi never had that problem after that, So WJ you can talk about evil all you want but experiencing is the only true teacher, so evil serves a purpose in the end, it a real teacher, the horrors of evil have to be experienced to really be learn If this was not the case then GOD would be the biggest MONSTER who ever Lived to allow all this with out purpose. God knows what He is doing and when He want it to stop it will. The sunnier the better as far as i am concerned. peace….gene GB Im sorry, but I think that it is sad you let your children watch that evil. Then to somehow think that the “fear” you put in them was from God is horrible. Tell me, did you sit them down to watch a XXX porn movie to show them how evil promiscuos sex is, so that they could see the beauty of being married??? God help us!

WJ…..is this not what God did to Israel, He instilled fear in them when He gave the commandments> He even have them kill a man who got wood for a fire on the Sabbath day. Had all of Israel stone him to death. So that the fear of Him would keep them from sinning.

Read Ex 20:2o…. Moses says to the people fear not, the Lord has come to test you and that His Fear may be before you, So that you may not sin.

Tell me was that wrong of him to do that then and these are but a few of the terror God did them for disobedience. At times He killed ten or twenty thousand of them was that cruel and did that not cause great fear in then, yes it did.

Ask yourself why did He do that , here is the answer, for the Carnal Mind is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be. But the carnal mind is subject to FEAR and it Can be regulated through Fear as Has been proved over and over. Fear is a very strong detouring fact . Fear can regulate a carnal mind and it is need to keep it in check, thats why we have police and laws is it not to control the carnal minds out there. Not all have God's spirit in them but most still have a carnal nature. and have to be dealt with in carnal ways. Carnal commandment for carnal minds.

What i did with my son was to cause him to see the truth and the result of that truth. It certainly worked it stop that kind of behavior. Don't think these realities in life are here to ignore. God wants us to see and know the result of evil behavior. And the consequences that go along with that behavior.

[GeneBalthrop]

Wj….what you said about the pron thing has nothing to do with correction, that would just feed their lusts, and cause then to learn bad behavior. One would correct bad behavior the other would cause bad behavior. Big difference. But both would effect a carnal mind except one positively and one negatively. Fear can be used as a dertourant to sin but feeding lust is a cause of sin, big difference, you should already know that.

[gollamudi]

Hi Gene and Jodi,
Wonderful debate on real devil and Satan. So Paul did not believe in real devils when he was cautioning about the “doctrine of devils”?

[Jodi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2008,14:57)

Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,09:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2008,10:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2008,04:38) Chosenone ….yes God did create Adversary's or Satan's and God himself can be an adversary at time saying to go tell them i am against them. Is there an actual being as a Satan i am not sure of that, I know Issac Newton at first thought there was but after a long study of the subject He concluded there was not such thing a Devil or Satan being, Remember Jesus said the Pharisees were of their father the devil, does that mean the being the devil father them, No, they were just being adversary's and therefore took on the nature or image of a devil. They literally were not devils. The bible has a lot of symbolic language in it , and it can be confusing at times. peace to you…….gene GB Sicknesses, or infections or mental illness, or adversaries that are not spirit beings does not have a kingdom which Yeshua says satan has. Infections or the like do not carry on conversations. And Yeshua doesnt give them permision to cause 2 thousand swine to commit suicide unless they are spirit beings called demons, or Legion. Jodi teaches heresy. WJ People with mental illnesses cannot carry on conversations? People who suffer from multiple personalities, don't carry on conversations? Do you have any clue as to what a brain tumor can cause a person to say and do? My understanding is that the whole world lies under the wicked one, which is the man who does not want to follow God, and thus he is to God an adversary, a Satan. Are the kingdoms of the world that will rise and fall that we see in Daniel, evil because of the ways of man, or does scripture tell us that the kingdoms that rule the world are evil because of fallen celestial beings? Daniel 2:39 “After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron–for iron breaks and smashes everything–and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay. 44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. Mt 18:7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up. WHO IS THE DEVIL? Devil means liar, slanderer. The proud is someone who exaggerates and lies, making up stories he knows are not true to enlighten his own ego. Are we ever told in the bible of a sinful angel being proud and then manipulating people to have the same characteristic? Scripture shows that man himself is proud by his own nature, and thus is by his own nature a DEVIL! It is these proud arrogant devils that rule the world and are adversaries to God. James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. 3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. 7 All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8 but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. Mark 7:20 He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'” Romans 1:8 Furtherm ore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Those who believe that fallen angels bring evil into our world are the ones committing heresy. These scriptures are CLEAR that God has given people over to a depraved mind, not over to the hidden manipulation of sinful angels. Instead of destroying sin, God let man's sin grow and mutate into greater more evil sins, all coming from within his own nature. Jodi Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,09:18) People with mental illnesses cannot carry on conversations? People who suffer from multiple personalities, don't carry on conversations? Do you have any clue as to what a brain tumor can cause a person to say and do? Jodi its not the demoniac that we are concerned with, it is Yeshua carrying on the converstation and giving the so called infection or mentel illness as you say, permision to go into swine, and the infection or illness to cause the 2000 swine to commit suicide. Tell me since you know so much about madness and brain tumors, have you ever seen a doctor talking to one, or have you ever seen one leave and go into swine or enter another being? None of the scriptures you quote is proof that satan is not an entity, while many scriptures prove that he is. All they show is that man has an evil nature called the “old man”. But that doesnt mean man is satan or the devil or a demon. The Greek definitions for all these imply a living being and not some sickness or infection etc. WJ

Hi WJ,

A person who suffers from multi personalities, doctors do indeed talk to those personalities, and even though those personalities are often crazy and delusional they can and do carry on somewhat normal conversations with others. Can doctors extract the disease and give it to animals? Yes they most certainly do. Do they have the power to do such through speech, like Jesus, of course not. They must use medical procedures. Do you know how many of our medicines are developed? Doctors take diseases and inflict them into rats and then do experiments and test different drugs.

Depending on the specifics of the mental disorder, a person's extra personalities can take over part of a person's life and come and go from day to day or pop out every now and then, or it can completely consume their whole life and be present all the time. It all has to do with what is happening within the brain. Don't take my word for it, look this stuff up. Diseases can cause several different mental and physical disfunctions, such as delusions, paranoia, hallucinations, depression, hostility, super strength, convulsions, involuntary muscle movements, not to mention a wide range of intelligence from complete dumbness to extreme intelligence in one or several areas. A person suffering from a mental disorder can have just a few of these disfunctions to having many of them. Demon possession was a term used for those being inflicted by evil spirits, or unclean spirits.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that sinful angels hold the same Powers of our Almighty God, and possess the ability to inflict people with evil spirits/unclean spirits. God makes the deaf the mute the blind and according to Deuteronomy 28:28, madness and confusion of mind.

You need to come to grips with Deuteronomy 28 and how it is God who inflicts people and makes people go crazy and allows these things to become genetic, being passed down to their children.

Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”

Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”

Mark 5:2 And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, 4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.” 8 For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” 9 Then He asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10 Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. 11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. 12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, “Send us to the swine, that we may enter them.” 13 And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea. 14 So those who fed the swine fled, and they told it in the city and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that had happened. 15 Then they came to Jesus, and saw the one who had been demon-possessed and had the legion, sitting and clothed and in his right mind. And they were afraid.

What did God do to Nebechanezzar?

Daniel 5:20 But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory. 21 He was driven away from people and given the mind of an animal; he lived with the wild donkeys and ate grass like cattle; and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven, until he acknowledged that the Most High God is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and sets over them anyone he wishes.

YLT
5:13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea — and they were about two thousand — and they were choked in the sea.

Yeshua REBUKED a woman's FEVER, now why would Jesus be SPEAKING to a bug that causes a fever?

Lu 4:39 So He stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. And immediately she arose and served them.

Why would Jesus talk to the wind?

Mt 8:26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.

Mt 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

Mr 9:25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!”

Once again, WHO makes the dead, the dumb, the blind, the mute, the mad, the mentally confused. Does not scripture say the LORD does these things? He does so by the infliction of unclean spirits, which are by all means seen as evil spirits unto the people being affected by them, and are
also therefore referred to as being demons, another word in the Greek meaning evil spirit.

This form of evil spirits from God should not be confused with the evil spirits/false gods, man makes up, that cannot walk, talk and have no power, other then to distort truth through falsehoods that dwell off of superstitions.

WJ, you said, “All they show is that man has an evil nature called the “old man”. But that doesnt mean man is satan or the devil or a demon. The Greek definitions for all these imply a living being and not some sickness or infection etc.

I am a little confused at this. My understanding is that satan means adversary and can represent anything or anyone that stands as an enemy or opponent. With all due respect WJ, the bible tells us in the Hebrew that God is a living being known to be a Satan, so are His messengers and so is man a living being referred to being a Satan. We are told by Yeshua that God's Satan or adversary is the man who follows man, not a man who is following fallen angels.

So yes, scripture clarifies that satan represents living beings, unfortunately for you it never says at any time that it stands for a powerful sinful angel. You have chosen to follow man's tradition that has defined it as such, instead of the bible and how the bible defines it.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot, for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

WJ, do you believe that Judas was a fallen angel, or was he a man ready to betray Jesus for his own gain? I am pretty certain he was a man.

To be a devil in the Greek is to be a liar and a slanderer. To be a devil in Greek did not mean to be a fallen angel.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam…. Doctrines of Devil's or Satan's are just false teachings that people brought into the church and they came form man not some mythical creature of some kind. Look at all the different denominations and they all think they are the true church even through they believe in all kinds of different doctrines from each other, it just pure confusion.

The only way you can possible get through all the confusion you must rely on the Spirit of truth that has been given you, it will give you the ability to recognize truth when you hear it. Just go by that and all these false teachings will not get to you. The spirit of truth will steer you through all of it. Never forget that Adam. You have been given all you need to grow and develop Godly character.

love to you and yours………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
We should not get confused.

There are satans and Satan.
There are devils and The Devil.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2008,19:27)

Hi Jodi, We should not get confused. There are satans and Satan. There are devils and The Devil.

So why give one fallen being two proper names, and where in scripture are we told the identity that the 'Satan' and the 'Devil'
is a sinful fallen angel who was jealous of God?

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Nick,
Satan means “an adversary”.
A devil is “an evil spirit”

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2008,15:08)

Quote (Jodi @ July 09 2008,09:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2008,14:21) Hi Jodi, Can sin grow? Can sin mutate? Sounds like something living. Did God create man with sin as an integral aspect of his nature? Was he not made in the image of GOD then? If not how is man like God? The sin in man can grow, The lust of the eyes can grow into an act of adultery. Hatred out of jealousy can grow into murder. Arrogance can grow into lies and deceit. We were created in the likeness of God, that does not make us born without an inclination for sinning. We are the created and the unknowing, God is the eternal and the all knowing. Eph 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. Hi Jodi, Amazing. And all this is of the man made in the image of God? Jas 1 James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. I do not think lust came from God but from man's submission to dominion by the Satan in the Garden of Eden

So are you trying to say that the passions of our flesh, our lusts are caused by sinful angels?

[Author]

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