Satan

[gollamudi]

Thanks for that.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Why should people say the Satan does not exist and stop there?
Why not deny Moses, Abraham, Mary even the Master?
Denying scriptural truth is not good form

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….right and making it say what it does not specifically say in poor form also. So show us were Satan is an actual being then in scripture a metaphor does not make reality and Far greater minds then your have concluded there is no real being called Satan, if there is then it would have to be Peter according to Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Hi Gb,
If what is written does not convince you how can we?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…> what is written is not the problem, it your interpretations that are the problem. You only look at one scripture and draw your conclusions. You remind me of the saying < You can't see the forest because of the trees. You seem to be blinded by the way you view scripture. Remember it the (SUM) of God's word thats truth Nick, not just one scripture taken out of context.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Where do your source your ideas from?
Not scripture.
You should go back to scripture and compare verse with verse.
All is true.

[Irene]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2008,03:54)

Nick…> what is written is not the problem, it your interpretations that are the problem. You only look at one scripture and draw your conclusions. You remind me of the saying < You can't see the forest because of the trees. You seem to be blinded by the way you view scripture. Remember it the (SUM) of God's word thats truth Nick, not just one scripture taken out of context.

Gen  Have you looked in your Concordance how many Scriptures talk about Satan? I counted just 53. To deny Satan is to deny Scritpures. That is the biggest lie ever that Satan has put into the mind of those that believe that He does not exsist.
Irene

[Jodi]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 30 2008,19:51)

Quote (Jodi @ July 01 2008,13:29) Quote (Jodi @ June 27 2008,23:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2008,22:51) Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,15:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,19:42) Hi GB, Peter was a vessel. Was Jesus speaking with the man from the Gaderenes or the spirits within him when he said GO? Mt8 28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. 29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. Jesus was talking to the infection when he said go, just like he was talking to the infection here in the woman and healed her through the mere use of words. Lu 4:39 and having stood over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her, and presently, having risen, she was ministering to them. Yeshua healed the men through the use of words. Yeshua transferred the infection (unclean or evil spirits) that were making the men crazy into the pigs, which inturn made the pigs crazy, so crazy they drowned themselves. Jodi Where is it written that it was a sickness or an infection. This is a gross misinterpretation of the scriptures, and who is telling stories now? And luke 4:39 doesnt mention demons or a devil either. I dont have time at the moment but will respond to your huge post. WJ WJ, You would have to go back and read my posts on demon possession to understand my position. I don't feel like rehashing them at the moment. So if your really interested, go for it. If demons were fallen angels, why would they want to enter the swine? Were the demons themselves crazy, or were they making the men crazy? Briefly, my position on demons comes from the original form of the Greek word for demon, which is not defined as fallen angels who possess.That would be a concept developed by the RCC, originating in pagan tradition. The people in the NT who have demons, evil spirits/unclean spirits have symptoms, which are they are mad, blind, and mute. The OT tells us directly that God sends onto people madness, blindness and muteness. The OT even says that God sends down evil, evil messengers, and evil spirits upon man. So I really don't believe that I am GROSSLY misinterpreting scripture Sir. Demons not only represent in the Greek a basic term for an evil spirit, but also represent according to the bible false gods, which God inturn tells us that these demons have NO POWER, they cannot talk or walk. The only trouble that they can cause is the false doctrine the people make up to go along with these false gods, or the people who think they have become one of them or are a half breed child of one of them. Why don't you answer this question WJ that I asked in this post? Here it is, “If demons were fallen angels, why would they want to enter the swine? Were the demons themselves crazy, or were they making the men crazy?” I have talked about this before, that is, what the mentally ill are capable of doing. I studied in college the mentally ill under three fields, psychology, sociology and special needs education. People with mental disorders have conditions from a broad spectrum, where some are very dumb while others are extremely intelligent in certain areas. Just because the 'evil spirits' are talking to Jesus and know who he is changes nothing in my view. In all honestly it fits in perfectly with my understanding of that which is capable within the mentally ill. This is all very interesting to me. Pagans believed in the sort of things you guys believe of which is not substantiated in scripture. Sinful angels are not said to hold the same powers of YHWH, being able to inflict people with mental and physical infirmities. Demons, Greek for daimon represent evil spirits, of which God can and does cast on people. The human brain is very complex and extraordinary to say the least if you have ever studied the biology of it. I am more inclined to follow what is said in scripture and apply it to the knowledge man has gained recently, over that of believing in pagan myths, which is what the early Christian 'fathers' did. Paul talked about ''Philosophy”….what did he say?

Colossians 2:1 1 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love,and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it
to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations– 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using–according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

So what did Paul say about philosophy??

He gave a warning not to follow after the principalities and powers held by the Jews who enforced the law. Also I believe he could be giving warning to the coming establishment of the RCC and all of their rituals and practices they would establish and enforce.

Why are these traditions of men of no good, because they have no value in helping man overcome the indulgences against the flesh.

Paul says NOTHING about sinful fallen angels manipulating us.

DK, do you think that people are not suppose to read scripture and think about what it says and means? Should people not read scripture and compare them and make sense out of them, not allowing for contradictions?

You don't find it odd that the traditions of pagans and their beliefs in manipulating wicked celestial beings, are very similar to those of the RCC and Christian church doctrine on fallen angels? I think hands down if one were to study pagan traditions they would see that Christian doctrine lines up closer to that of pagan traditions then it does with the bible, in regards to the belief of a hidden evil celestial world that interferes with man on earth.

Why would fallen angels, or wicked celestial beings want to go into swine, that then go drown themselves?

That does not make sense.

Those who are demon possessed in the bible aren't making ANY sort of influential impact on society. They are seen as crazy pests, or like wild animals. They most certainly are not in any sort of position of power or authority, being capable of establishing traditions or doctrines.

They are categorized with the people who need to be healed from suffering.

Paul is telling us in Colossians 2, that

-We must be aware of man's philosophies and traditions, not to follow laws and rituals that are of no value and cannot please God or work against fighting the weak flesh.

-If we hold to the Head of the Body which is Christ, and live according to the knowledge that God raised Christ from the dead and promises us the same, we can take that knowledge and use it to battle against our weak flesh.

Man makes up stories for that which he does not understand and through deception and arrogance he establishes those stories as truth. Man did not understand how people could act crazy back then, they did not understand much of anything about the human body and how it worked, especially in regards to the brain and nervous system.

Dk, if you had a child with a speech problem would you take him to see a doctor and a speech therapist, to see if there was medication or some sort of therapy that could help him, or would you call for an exorcist?

I believe that medical advancements have been made because God has given people the knowledge to understand what previously wasn't understood. What is done with that knowledge by man is then what can be accounted as good or evil.

Man gains knowledge through God. Man does not gain knowledge from an evil celestial world and use it through their manipulation to do evil, this is not substantiated in any scripture.

God knows that we are predictable creatures that serve our flesh. Unfortunately in order to learn many valuable lessons God must give us knowledge He knows we will turn around and use for the sake of ourselves and with disregard for others.

The ways of man are according to how man uses that which God has given him. What determines good or evil from man is whether or not man can deny his fleshly desires and stay the course of Christ's example, which is to fully trust in God, or give into his fleshly desires.

DK, you have taken Paul's words out of context to try and make me out to be someone who is claiming truth according to my OWN philosophy. DK, I don't have any traditions or rituals that I follow that I am trying to bring man into.

Colossians 2 is yet another example from the scriptures that talks about our weak flesh being an adversary to us, and fails to mention anything about some hidden celestial world of fallen angels.

[Jodi]

Quote (Irene @ July 07 2008,13:04)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2008,03:54) Nick…> what is written is not the problem, it your interpretations that are the problem. You only look at one scripture and draw your conclusions. You remind me of the saying < You can't see the forest because of the trees. You seem to be blinded by the way you view scripture. Remember it the (SUM) of God's word thats truth Nick, not just one scripture taken out of context. Gen Have you looked in your Concordance how many Scriptures talk about Satan? I counted just 53. To deny Satan is to deny Scritpures. That is the biggest lie ever that Satan has put into the mind of those that believe that He does not exsist. Irene

Irene,

Gene does not deny the adversary spoken of in the bible.

When I gave you all those scriptures containing the word adversary, it was not to show how many times we see in the bible the word adversary, it was for you to look at the context of which the WORD adversary/satan, is used.

Not ONE scripture speaks of the adversary/satan as representing a proper name for some fallen angel who is the ruler of a hidden world where celestial beings cause man to do evil.

What we do have are DIRECT VERSES stating that God is Satan, God's Messengers are Satan, and man is Satan.

Irene, how does this scripture fit in with your understanding of Satan representing a fallen angel?

NKJ
Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

YLT
Matthew 16:23 and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'

Peter is a Satan, or adversary because he has in mind the things of men.

Now if Satan stood for the proper name of a fallen angel then why would Jesus say Peter had in mind the things of men?

Hope you and Mr. are doing well, and had a great 4th of July, Peace and love, Jodi

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi….Amen.

Irene…Einstein said that Sir Issac Newton in his opinion was the smartest man who ever lived, and Newton did more on the bible then He did anything else and He concluded that there was no Satan Being as such, but that term can apply to anyone who is an adversary if not then the Apostle Peter was Satan according to Jesus. We have to see things in a spiritual sense. There is no Lucifier Being, that name is only mentioned in scripture one time and is referring to the King of Babylon who was consider a Lucifier (rising Star) not some celestial being some where. It plainly says he was a man, a man is not a celestial spiritual being. We can all be Satan at time and when we are we are considered to be following the devil as Jesus told the Pharisees they were the children of the devil , they were not literally children of a literal being call Satan or the Devil, they were acting as adversaries of God and Jesus, So Jesus called them that, he meant it from a spiritual stand point. Not a actual being called the devil.

love and peace to you and your……..gene

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2008,16:01)

Hi, Why should people say the Satan does not exist and stop there? Why not deny Moses, Abraham, Mary even the Master? Denying scriptural truth is not good form

Hi Nick,

Why don't you show us the scripture that declares a sinful angel being given the proper name adversary, and then give us all the scriptures using the word Satan/adversary and show us by their context that they are indeed representing that fallen angel?

This would be VERY helpful to me. Thanks

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Is Satan a fallen angel? Is it written?
He did appear in Job 1-2 asking to test Job.
He did appear with the angel of the Lord to accuse Joshua in Zechariah 3.
He can appear as an angel of light and is a liar, a murderer and the spiritual father of many men.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..those scriptures simply show an adversarial spirit and not an actual being as you proclaim There is and if you follow the story of Job to the end you will see it was God who did all that to Job, Not some being named Satan. God Himself can be Satan, Just like you or anyone else for that matter can be a Satan.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So there are adversarial spirits among the sons of God who met with god in Job1-2?

But when Satan is shown in scripture to have spoken with God was not actually true?
So Satan never spoke with God in the assembly of the sons of God?
Any other inconvenient bits of scripture to be removed?
Is this to defend your summation of scripture?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…no it what fits most all scripture while you summation of a being called Satan doesn't fit hardly any scripture but the one in Job and i will believe the far greater minds that see it differently then you as far more accurate then you. To view your way then Peter would have to be Satan, Jesus said He was. But to view it symbolicly Satan could be any one who is an adversary , even you. I have told you before it's the (SUM) of God's word not Just One part, If you want to get the true picture you have to condider all scripture dealing whit that subject not just one, that the problem here sum like you Just hold to one scripture and not look at the whole thing.
believe what you want i could care less Nick.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So who did God speak with in Job 1-2?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick… if that is your only point your point is weak at best.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So is it a false scripture?

[Irene]

Gen. Have you ever looked in your Concordance how many Scriptures talk about Satan. I have. In my King James Bible 13 times it is mentioned in Scriptures.
I am so sorry for you, Satan has told you a big lie. Just like He did to Eve.
Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene…..the word Satan only means adversary nothing else, What do you do with Jesus calling Peter Satan then. He did not mean Peter was actually the being Satan did He, and if Jesus did not lie then there has to be another way of looking at the word Satan . The bible is full of metaphor's, and symbolism and parables,and analogies, in fact it can't be understood completely without knowing them.
even the gospel of the Kingdom is all given in parables there must be 30 or 40 of them. So a person could not even understand the Gospel with out Know them.

Satan i believe is metaphorically speaking. imo

love and peace to you and yours…………….gene

[Author]

Posts