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Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,15:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,19:42) Hi GB,
Peter was a vessel.
Was Jesus speaking with the man from the Gaderenes or the spirits within him when he said GO?Mt8
28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Jesus was talking to the infection when he said go,just like he was talking to the infection here in the woman and healed her through the mere use of words.
Lu 4:39 and having stood over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her, and presently, having risen, she was ministering to them.
Yeshua healed the men through the use of words. Yeshua transferred the infection (unclean or evil spirits) that were making the men crazy into the pigs, which inturn made the pigs crazy, so crazy they drowned themselves.
JodiWhere is it written that it was a sickness or an infection.
This is a gross misinterpretation of the scriptures, and who is telling stories now?
And luke 4:39 doesnt mention demons or a devil either.
I dont have time at the moment but will respond to your huge post.
WJ
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 27 2008,21:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,09:58) Hi Jodi,
Did Satan test Jesus?
Did Satan test Job?
Did Satan sift Peter?If not that is a lot of scripture denied for the sake of a philosophy.
People who don't believe satan is real have fallen write into his trap..2 Corinthians 4:3-5 ..3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
DK,With all due respect, have you been sincerely reading my posts?
Do I sound like a person who is falling away from Christ?
What you say is really quite funny to me. What Irene has said to me also. Not funny, ha ha, but just funny. Actually, it makes me a little sad that you would rather accuse me of falling away into satan, then taking the time to read what I am saying and seeing where my heart does indeed belong, which is to God and His ways.
Studying this topic the last few weeks has really drawn me so much closer to God and making me desire His Spirit so much more, because I have realized all the more why it is I need His Spirit working in me. My sins are mine and I know exactly where they come from, I don't need to guess or waist my time worrying that they might have come from some unseen power, I can focus clearly and keep to the task at hand, which is praying and asking for the guidance and the Spirit of Yah to help me overcome my weaknesses.
Please read my last post to WJ and answer the question at the bottom.
Here is another question for you on top of that one?
How can I be responsible for the influence of something I don't know is influencing me? Isn't that the perfect excuse for blaming my sins on someone else.
Is that what you like to do?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2008,22:51) Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,15:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,19:42) Hi GB,
Peter was a vessel.
Was Jesus speaking with the man from the Gaderenes or the spirits within him when he said GO?Mt8
28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Jesus was talking to the infection when he said go,just like he was talking to the infection here in the woman and healed her through the mere use of words.
Lu 4:39 and having stood over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her, and presently, having risen, she was ministering to them.
Yeshua healed the men through the use of words. Yeshua transferred the infection (unclean or evil spirits) that were making the men crazy into the pigs, which inturn made the pigs crazy, so crazy they drowned themselves.
JodiWhere is it written that it was a sickness or an infection.
This is a gross misinterpretation of the scriptures, and who is telling stories now?
And luke 4:39 doesnt mention demons or a devil either.
I dont have time at the moment but will respond to your huge post.
WJ
WJ,You would have to go back and read my posts on demon possession to understand my position.
I don't feel like rehashing them at the moment. So if your really interested, go for it.
If demons were fallen angels, why would they want to enter the swine? Were the demons themselves crazy, or were they making the men crazy?
Briefly, my position on demons comes from the original form of the Greek word for demon, which is not defined as fallen angels who possess.That would be a concept developed by the RCC, originating in pagan tradition. The people in the NT who have demons, evil spirits/unclean spirits have symptoms, which are they are mad, blind, and mute. The OT tells us directly that God sends onto people madness, blindness and muteness. The OT even says that God sends down evil, evil messengers, and evil spirits upon man. So I really don't believe that I am GROSSLY misinterpreting scripture Sir. Demons not only represent in the Greek a basic term for an evil spirit, but also represent according to the bible false gods, which God inturn tells us that these demons have NO POWER, they cannot talk or walk. The only trouble that they can cause is the false doctrine the people make up to go along with these false gods, or the people who think they have become one of them or are a half breed child of one of them.
Hi Jodi,
That's another wonderful post I believe. I also believe that no fallen angel has become devil or evil spirit. But please throw some light on what are these evil spirits exactly that trouble human beings which were also been cast out by our Lord Jesus and other Apostles.
Love to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,23:27) Hi Jodi,
That's another wonderful post I believe. I also believe that no fallen angel has become devil or evil spirit. But please throw some light what are these evil spirits exactly that trouble human beings which were also been cast out by our Lord Jesus and other Apostles.
Love to you
Adam
Thanks gollamudi,
I am going to actually head off to bed right now, but will back again tomorrow.Have a good night brother, love to you in Christ.
Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,17:55) How can I be responsible for the influence of something I don't know is influencing me?
This reminds me of an old Keith Green song where Keith says, “…..release us from chains we cannot see…..”.I've often wondered about the very idea of being in bondage to something and not even being aware of it. Or as you say, being influenced by something that I'm not even aware of.
I guess Gene would say that God allows it (cause and effect), but it doesn't seem quite fair, does it? Hmmm. Ponder, ponder….
Sis, don't be descouraged by the responses you are receiving. Sometimes when folks don't understand something their reactions are based in fear. It comes out sounding like this, “Your falling away. Your heading for a trap.” and so on. Your posts are compelling. I see clearly how you have come to your interpretations. Other's are perhaps falling back on what they know and have heard all their lives. Indoctrination runs deep in a lot of people. The reason I say this is because I have not heard a sound argument from any of those who are worried you are believing a falsehood. So, press on sister.
Love,
MandyHi not3,
Certainly jumping into a well teaches you a lot on the way down.You can learn about light and texture and temperature and moisture gradients.
Folk will believe anything and we do see every possible tangent on every verse here.
Experience is the best teacher though for some who wander off the path there is no way back.
Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,07:55) which is praying and asking for the guidance and the Spirit of Yah to help me overcome my weaknesses.
Hi JodiI find this debate interesting
but who is 'Yah'?
Who yah talking about?Lineon
Jodi………i agree with you, this whole misconception of demons is not really understood by Modern Churches and a lot of times is used to control people by making, them fearful if they leave their church Satan is Causing it. When in fact they may be more the servants of the so-called Satan by being in that church. Like it says they go get others and make them two fold more the servants of Satan or (adversity) then themselves.
Jodi….most here respect you and have gained a lot of incite from what you have posted , so don't get discouraged .
I am looking forward to more of your posts.
Love and peace to you and yours……………gene
Quote (lineon @ June 28 2008,01:07) Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,07:55) which is praying and asking for the guidance and the Spirit of Yah to help me overcome my weaknesses.
Hi JodiI find this debate interesting
but who is 'Yah'?
Who yah talking about?Lineon
Sorry, Yah or Jah, is what is short for YHWH the true name for our Creator. It is used in Psalms and we see it in Hallelujah, meaning praise the Lord, or Praise YHWH.Quote (Jodi @ June 29 2008,03:22) Quote (lineon @ June 28 2008,01:07) Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,07:55) which is praying and asking for the guidance and the Spirit of Yah to help me overcome my weaknesses.
Hi JodiI find this debate interesting
but who is 'Yah'?
Who yah talking about?Lineon
Sorry, Yah or Jah, is what is short for YHWH the true name for our Creator. It is used in Psalms and we see it in Hallelujah, meaning praise the Lord, or Praise YHWH.
Jodi! Why don't you just say God or our Father and Jesus? Most understand that better.
IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,21:22) Hi Jodi,
This is what Jesus said about her.
” 16And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? “
Should we not accept HIS WORDS?
Hi Nick,You have yet to give any scriptural support linking the general word adversary to a sinful angel.
Luke 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.” 15 The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! F98 Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound–think of it–for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”
This CRIPPLED woman who could not raise her back but had to walk 18 years hunched over, do you not think that her infirmity was an adversary to her, BOUNDING her from living a normal and productive life?
Why do you have such a hard time understanding the basic meaning of the word adversary? It is a rather easy concept to understand. Let's say a man must get from point A to point B, but a large steep mountain is in his way, one could say, “unto the man an adversary came to keep him from going his way.”
There is no indication that the adversary here in Luke 13 represents anything other then the infirmity itself.
Nick, you said earlier,” So you reject the teachings and the work of Jesus Christ in this area?”
We see in Luke 13 that Jesus is referring to the woman's infirmity as an adversary that has her bound. I am not rejecting that.
I most certainly don't reject the words of Jesus when he tells us that from within out of the heart of men proceeds evil.
Mark 7:20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Why don't you find me a scripture where Jesus says that a sinful angel is an adversary to man because he holds the same powers of God to be able to inflict people with infirmities. As well, why don't you show me a scripture where Jesus declares that sinful angels can unknowingly get inside man's heart acting as an adversary, causing him to do evil things.
Hi Jodi,
I can agree with your reasoning of adversary need not be so called satan or fallen angel. But I asked you earlier 'who are these evil spirits that trouble human beings some of which were also cast out by Jesus our Lord during his public ministry'?
Love to you
AdamJodi…Amen sis….I totally agree any affection can be a adversary. Peter was call Satan or adversary because He was resisting what Jesus was doing , I also think the idea of a boogie man is a mythology. The whole world lies in darkness and resist the things of God, because (IT”S) deeds are evil. We get this idea of the prince of this darkness is the devil or some fallen angle of some kind of being walking around like a person or a lion stocking everyone when in fact it's the world it self that is an adversary to God. This idology of a roaring Lion has if origns back in Genesis..> God told Cain if you do well you will be accepted but if not
Sin Couches at YOU DOOR i.e. Heart , It's Desire is toward you, you must master it. Sin is portrayed a something stalking us and in the new portrayed as a roaring Lion stalking people.Love to you and yours, kiss the little one for me………gene
Adam….> remember what a Spirit is , it's words that are expressions of thought and they do trouble people all of us at times. If you go to a movie and see a sad movie you become sad, why? because the sounds or words you heard filled you heart with sadness, Jesus said the words i am telling are Spirit and life . why are they spirit because they are expression of thought and why are they life, because the effect our lives.
Jesus had through God the ability to rid the mind of these Evil thoughts or Spirits, there are all kinds of them clean and unclean, peaceful and valiant, and so on, they all have there beginning in thoughts and are expressed in words.
There every where, these spirits are but thoughts expressed in words, thats why when Jesus cast them out of a person they were actually speak because they are expressed thoughts until they are cast out then they had no control of any thing, Spirits are the expression of though through words, both good and evil. Good and Evil words are every where we are constantly bombarded with both Good and evil
words. Thats why Paul said think on whatsoever is Good, lovely, of a good report.Why because they are the spirits of good things.Hope this helped Adam
Love and peace to you and yours brother…………….gene
Some people on here believe that there is a Hidden Secret World of sinful angels, whom have a prince or ruler that in turn controls our world, causing man to unknowingly do his evil work because he is jealous of God and wants to go against God's will.
These believers seem to think, and they can correct me if I am wrong, that the rise in power through out history of evil kings and governments has been due to these hidden evil angelic forces.
What scripture indicates is however completely otherwise.
James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
There is nothing in scripture that would lead us to believe that God is allowing celestial evil forces to affect our world unknowingly.
God created the earth, and when He did so He dispersed Natural Resources, which He knew all along that His predictable created creature, man, would fight for.
Events going on in the world are being done under God's Will to bring us to a particular realization of ourselves and our weaknesses. Events going on in this world ARE NOT due to fallen angels trying to go against the will of God.
Man is constantly being tested by God, and it is God's will that He allows man to do evil onto man. God has a direct hand in the course of this world.
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
God controls things according to the resources given to the world and by the knowledge He disperses to people.
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
A natural disaster such as a destructive hurricane or a drought can lead to the down fall of an entire nation. Especially when you add a deadly disease into the mix. A huge discovery of oil in one nation could raise it up in power, especially if you combine it with the implementation of certain forms of knowledge leading to further economic advancements.
Our lives are centered around what we do with that which God Almighty gives us. They have nothing to do with some hidden celestial forces.
The adversaries and slanderers we see in our world are men and men's manifestation's that reflect men following his own self desires instead of the ways of God.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2008,09:48) Jodi…Amen sis….I totally agree any affection can be a adversary. Peter was call Satan or adversary because He was resisting what Jesus was doing , I also think the idea of a boogie man is a mythology. The whole world lies in darkness and resist the things of God, because (IT”S) deeds are evil. We get this idea of the prince of this darkness is the devil or some fallen angle of some kind of being walking around like a person or a lion stocking everyone when in fact it's the world it self that is an adversary to God. This idology of a roaring Lion has if origns back in Genesis..> God told Cain if you do well you will be accepted but if not
Sin Couches at YOU DOOR i.e. Heart , It's Desire is toward you, you must master it. Sin is portrayed a something stalking us and in the new portrayed as a roaring Lion stalking people.Love to you and yours, kiss the little one for me………gene
Thanks Gene,Great example from Genesis with Cain!
Gladly kiss the little one for you, I can't get enough of baby kisses, well at least the ones mom gives on the cheek and not the ones she gives with an open mouth, yuck!
Love to you, Jodi
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