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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,08:43) Hi GB,
Did Jesus see the carnal minds of men falling from heaven?Did the mind of carnal man take Jesus to the top of the temple?
Did the carnal mind of a man enter Judas?You really should not publicly deny scripture.
Nick…..Do you really think Satan took Jesus to a tower and showed him (all) the kingdoms of the earth literally. It was Jesus own carnal side that took him there and He overcame it by the spiritual side in Him. I think you are not seeing the symbolic and spiritual side of things enough. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke are spirit. We have to understand them in a spiritual sense then. When Jesus said Peter was Satan he meant it spiritually not an actual being who was Satan Himself. And when the so-called devil entered into Judas, thats was Judas carnal nature taking over his mind, not some imaginary being of some kind. You must realize every thing and everyone that resists God is a ADVISORY i.e. Satan.IMO………..gene
Nick…….I am not denying Scriptures i looking at it from a spiritual stand point, Which is something you need to start doing.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,10:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,08:43) Hi GB,
Did Jesus see the carnal minds of men falling from heaven?Did the mind of carnal man take Jesus to the top of the temple?
Did the carnal mind of a man enter Judas?You really should not publicly deny scripture.
Nick…..Do you really think Satan took Jesus to a tower and showed him (all) the kingdoms of the earth literally. It was Jesus own carnal side that took him there and He overcame it by the spiritual side in Him. I think you are not seeing the symbolic and spiritual side of things enough. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke are spirit. We have to understand them in a spiritual sense then. When Jesus said Peter was Satan he meant it spiritually not an actual being who was Satan Himself. And when the so-called devil entered into Judas, thats was Judas carnal nature taking over his mind, not some imaginary being of some kind. You must realize every thing and everyone that resists God is a ADVISORY i.e. Satan.IMO………..gene
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Matt 4:6And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: Lk 4:9
I think that two eyewitnesses of Yeshua would know what happened.
Was there a Holy City in Yeshua's mind?
Was the Temple in Yeshua's mind?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,10:18) Nick…….I am not denying Scriptures i looking at it from a spiritual stand point, Which is something you need to start doing.
GBHeck lets just spiritualize all the scriptures away to fit whatever we want to believe.
Maybe Yeshua was never taken litterraly to Golgotha and hung on a cross.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,14:58) Hi Jodi,
Did Satan test Jesus?
Did Satan test Job?
Did Satan sift Peter?If not that is a lot of scripture denied for the sake of a philosophy.
Satan means adversaryhow long are you going to deny that?
Hi Jodi,
Every name has a meaning.
He is the adversary of the Word.
So can men be adversarial at times.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2008,10:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,10:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,08:43) Hi GB,
Did Jesus see the carnal minds of men falling from heaven?Did the mind of carnal man take Jesus to the top of the temple?
Did the carnal mind of a man enter Judas?You really should not publicly deny scripture.
Nick…..Do you really think Satan took Jesus to a tower and showed him (all) the kingdoms of the earth literally. It was Jesus own carnal side that took him there and He overcame it by the spiritual side in Him. I think you are not seeing the symbolic and spiritual side of things enough. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke are spirit. We have to understand them in a spiritual sense then. When Jesus said Peter was Satan he meant it spiritually not an actual being who was Satan Himself. And when the so-called devil entered into Judas, thats was Judas carnal nature taking over his mind, not some imaginary being of some kind. You must realize every thing and everyone that resists God is a ADVISORY i.e. Satan.IMO………..gene
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Matt 4:6And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: Lk 4:9
I think that two eyewitnesses of Yeshua would know what happened.
Was there a Holy City in Yeshua's mind?
Was the Temple in Yeshua's mind?
WJ……I noticed you conveniently Left out Mat 4:8..> again the devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high Mountain and Showeth him All the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.Now seeing you say that it was literal, please tell us which mountain was that, that He could see all the kingdoms of the world from, and the Glory of them all.
WJ…….I know no mountain where you can see (ALL) the kingdoms of the world from, do you, Pleas inform Us.
Nick…. the flesh is fleshly minded and the spiritual are spiritual minded, but the flesh profits nothing Jesus said. But the Spirit enders to life and Jesus words were Spirit. To view thing from a flesh stand point does not give you a spiritual standing they are not the same. One is Carnal the other is spiritual, the carnal mind genders to death the spiritual genders to life.
When Jesus said to eat his Flesh and drink His blood that was not literal it was spiritual spoken.
Nick do not destroy the spiritual perceptions with your litter analogies. I really don't see how that advances the work of God at all.
Hi GB,
Perhaps you should stop using opinion, speculation and human logic
and then insisting only those who agree with
you are spiritually minded.You often leave the path of scriptural truth and prefer other views.
Satan is written…many times…including in the teachings of Jesus.
Your own views have no place in the proper discovery of real truthNick…….there you go playing the part of your leader again, Accusing me of the very thing you yourself do as attested to by many on this form not Just me. You say my views have no place in the proper discovery of real truth, but of course you speculations and opinions and Carnal logic does, right? Don;t make me laugh.
Nick……..Jesus called Peter Satan, so from your point of view He has to be the real Satan, because Jesus would not lie would He?, So if Peter is not (SATAN) them maybe Satan Just means Advisory and is not implied as literal. It doesn't take a highly intelligent mind to reason that out. But when ever confronted with the truth you don't seam to get it, but start accusing others of distortng truth Just because you can't understand it. Amazing>
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,16:35) Hi Jodi,
Every name has a meaning.
He is the adversary of the Word.
So can men be adversarial at times.
As Gene just put it, Peter was directly called satan. Peter was being an adversary to God because he had in mind the things of man instead of the things of God.Does it REALLY make sense to you that Yeshua would be calling Peter a fallen angel because he has in mind the things of MAN?
Where in the bible do we see a 'Son of God' sinning and being given a new proper name Satan?
Hi GB,
Peter was a vessel.
Was Jesus speaking with the man from the Gaderenes or the spirits within him when he said GO?Mt8
28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,19:42) Hi GB,
Peter was a vessel.
Was Jesus speaking with the man from the Gaderenes or the spirits within him when he said GO?Mt8
28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Jesus was talking to the infection when he said go,just like he was talking to the infection here in the woman and healed her through the mere use of words.
Lu 4:39 and having stood over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her, and presently, having risen, she was ministering to them.
Yeshua healed the men through the use of words. Yeshua transferred the infection (unclean or evil spirits) that were making the men crazy into the pigs, which inturn made the pigs crazy, so crazy they drowned themselves.
Hi Jodi,
Luke 13:11
And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.Hi Jodi,
This is what Jesus said about her.
” 16And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? “
Should we not accept HIS WORDS?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,09:58) Hi Jodi,
Did Satan test Jesus?
Did Satan test Job?
Did Satan sift Peter?If not that is a lot of scripture denied for the sake of a philosophy.
People who don't believe satan is real have fallen write into his trap..2 Corinthians 4:3-5 ..3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2008,15:01) Quote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,09:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,13:43) Hi GB,
Did Jesus see the carnal minds of men falling from heaven?Did the mind of carnal man take Jesus to the top of the temple?
Did the carnal mind of a man enter Judas?You really should not publicly deny scripture.
Hi Nick,Yes, Yes and Yes!
The carnal mind is vein and ignorant thinks he can be a god and go against the will of God. I find the idea that an angel who dwelt with God in His abode, face to face with all His glory and honor, could think that he could possibly go against His will.
Yeshua saw the plan of God where vein and arrogant men in their positions of power would be cut down from that position.
Can one man with authority, power, and wealth not tempt another man to follow him?
Cannot lust, jealousy, hatred and guilt enter into our minds and cause us to sin?
Job 20:4: “Surely you know how it has been from of old, ever since man was placed on the earth, 5 that the mirth of the wicked is brief, the joy of the godless lasts but a moment. 6 Though his pride reaches to the heavens and his head touches the clouds, 7 he will perish forever, like his own dung; those who have seen him will say, 'Where is he?'
Pr 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
Jer 49:16 The terror you inspire and the pride of your heart have deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks, who occupy the heights of the hill. Though you build your nest as high as the eagle's, from there I will bring you down,” declares the Lord.
Ob 1:3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks and make your home on the heights, you who say to yourself, 'Who can bring me down to the ground?'
Isaiah 14:13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
14:15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
14:16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
Can we really trust that there will be NO SIN on earth upon the establishment of Yeshua's rule, where it is to be on earth as it is in heaven, if angels are capable of committing sin in God's presence and within His Holy and Righteous abode?
Ps 118:20This [is] the gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.
Ps 140:13 Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!
The idea of an angel falling from the presence of God is so absurd. It destroys all of God's credibility of Him being able to bring peace to earth, if He can't even manage to keep it with the angels of whom dwelt in His presence and already possessed the gift of immortality.
Matthew 6:9 “Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Jeremiah 25:30 – And thou, thou dost prophesy unto them all these words, and hast said unto them: Jehovah from the high place doth roar, And from His holy habitation giveth forth His voice, He surely roareth for His habitation, A shout as of treaders down, God answereth all the inhabitants of the land,
What Holy Habitation? What authority, if God cannot even keep sin and peace out of the the place of which He dwells?
The dragon in Revelations is directly said to represent Kingdoms on earth and is never said to be a pack of sinful angels fighting God in His Heavenly abode. The rulers of these Kingdoms think that they are above God, but God will cut them down, they will fall. They will see their fall coming and know that they have little time left, so they will try to cause as much destruction as they possible can until their bitter end.
Hi JodiQuote (Jodi @ June 28 2008,09:44) Yes, Yes and Yes! The carnal mind is vein and ignorant thinks he can be a god and go against the will of God. I find the idea that an angel who dwelt with God in His abode, face to face with all His glory and honor, could think that he could possibly go against His will.
So Jesus after the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove sat on him had a carnal mind? In fact did Jesus ever have a carnal mind and what scripture do you have to prove this?
Yeshua said…
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Jn 14:30
Was carnal, evil wicked thoughts of the flesh called a “Prince”?
Hi WJ,Yeshua was flesh and blood and his mind just like everyone else had to deal with such things as hunger and suffering. Yeshua had the same internal struggle between the human mind and the human flesh the same as everyone else. Through being given God's Spirit however, he was able to keep his mind from sin, completely denying the desires of his flesh.
To think carnally is to take your hunger and decide you will do whatever means necessary, lie, cheat, steal, kill, to get food. To think according to the Spirit, is to take your hunger and decide you will keep yourself from sin and allow God's will to be done.
Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Ro 8:7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Eph 2:15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity in it,Yeshua killed the enmity through God's Spirit, he overcame the human mind's will to follow the flesh and he remained completely faithful to God.
I am unfamiliar of a scripture that tells us there was an angel in heaven that sinned, but is now lurking around earth and is now known as a prince.
Why must you use made up stories to interpret scriptures?
Joh 14:30 I will no more talk much with you, for the ruler of this world doth come, and in me he hath nothing;
Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.
Ephesians 2:1 Also you –
– being dead in the trespasses and the sins, 2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath — as also the others,Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Ro 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Without Christ working in us, we are slaves to sin, where does sin come from?
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Read Ephesians 2 VERY slowly and carefully, it directly tells us that the ruler of the authority of the air, the age of this world is according to those walking according to the flesh. It says absolutely nothing about hidden evil celestial beings.
This is all very simple, without the Spirit of God in us we are RULED BY our fleshly desires.
The evil dictators and leaders today and in the past are and have been evil because of their own evil hearts and minds, where they have allowed their desires for power and wealth to commit horrible things onto others. These men are satans and devils, adversaries and liars to God and His ways.
There is not a single scripture that would substantiate that they were being manipulated or influenced by some evil celestial prince that is secretly leading our world. To me that is utter nonsense, and it denies the clear REPETATIVE message from the bible that man's sins are the cause of his own weak nature.
God sends a famine and there is a food shortage. Man and his character are being tested. When hunger moves in, will man stay on a righteous path, or will he let his fleshly desires overcome him and give way to sin?
WJ, is there a specific example you have of when and where the fallen angel, 'prince of this world,' has aided in a man's fleshly desires to overcome him, making him sin?
Since Yeshua tells us in Mark 7 that man commits all these things on his own from within himself, evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness, how would a person know whether or not the fallen angel 'prince' was in on a person's sin or not?
Aren't we better off keeping with what we do know, that sins come from our weak nature, but by following Christ and his example we can gain strength to work against that weak flesh?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,12:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2008,10:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,10:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2008,08:43) Hi GB,
Did Jesus see the carnal minds of men falling from heaven?Did the mind of carnal man take Jesus to the top of the temple?
Did the carnal mind of a man enter Judas?You really should not publicly deny scripture.
Nick…..Do you really think Satan took Jesus to a tower and showed him (all) the kingdoms of the earth literally. It was Jesus own carnal side that took him there and He overcame it by the spiritual side in Him. I think you are not seeing the symbolic and spiritual side of things enough. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke are spirit. We have to understand them in a spiritual sense then. When Jesus said Peter was Satan he meant it spiritually not an actual being who was Satan Himself. And when the so-called devil entered into Judas, thats was Judas carnal nature taking over his mind, not some imaginary being of some kind. You must realize every thing and everyone that resists God is a ADVISORY i.e. Satan.IMO………..gene
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Matt 4:6And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: Lk 4:9
I think that two eyewitnesses of Yeshua would know what happened.
Was there a Holy City in Yeshua's mind?
Was the Temple in Yeshua's mind?
WJ……I noticed you conveniently Left out Mat 4:8..> again the devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high Mountain and Showeth him All the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.Now seeing you say that it was literal, please tell us which mountain was that, that He could see all the kingdoms of the world from, and the Glory of them all.
WJ…….I know no mountain where you can see (ALL) the kingdoms of the world from, do you, Pleas inform Us.
GBThat was not intentional. However scriptures tell us that he saw the kingdoms of the world on a mountain, it doesnt say what mountain, and it dosnt say what kingdoms.
But it does say he was on a mountain. So why would the scriptures say a mountain, a Temple and a Holy City if this was just a figment of his evil mind or some spiritual vision to tempt God?
Its amazing the extremes a person will go to preach such falshoods.
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