Satan

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,03:46)

To All……….Sir Issac Newton After many years writing on bible subjects Slowly changed his mind concerning a Real Devil or Satan, to a point where He concluded there was no Such thing as a literal devil or Satan. I think he may be right, Jesus said the the Pharisee were of their father the devil. Did that mean the devil was literally their Father No he was referencing there mindset was that of a Devil, just as He told Peter Get behind me Satan, was Peter literally a Satan Being, NO , He was acting as a adversary, we all at times in our lives have acted this way, the very minds we are born with is Carnal and is Enemy to God not subject to His laws, it is an adversarial mind. It opposes God, so when Jesus said they were from there father the devil He was right, there carnal minds worked in opposition to God's truth, even though they said differently. The Carnal mind we receive from the world is a enemy to God, and therefore is a adversary to Him.

imo……….gene

Hi GB,
Your opinion and that of Sir Isaac
do not rate against the teachings of Jesus do they?

June 26, 2008 at 10:17 pm#94351

Cato

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,02:12)

Agreed but what about this verse in Rev 12:9

9 “The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it”.

Don't you think the Sepent of Eden and Serpent or Dragon of Revelation one and the same Satan who is our Adversary?

No I don't believe they are the same. In Genesis it clearly says animal more then once, I don't think Satan was a living creature of the field forced to crawl on his belly. Gen 3:14 “The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,cursed are you above all the wild beasts and all the living creatures of the field! On your belly you will crawl and dust you will eat all the days of your life.”

June 26, 2008 at 10:24 pm#94352

Participant

Hi cato,
Vessels.
Serpents, men and even donkeys

June 27, 2008 at 12:14 am#94366

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,10:24)

Hi cato,
Vessels.
Serpents, men and even donkeys

agreed

June 27, 2008 at 12:17 am#94368

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,10:13)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,03:46)

imo……….gene

Hi GB,
Your opinion and that of Sir Isaac
do not rate against the teachings of Jesus do they?

Don't waver on this brother GB…Paul talked about these useless philosphies of men..

Colossians 2:8 …. 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

June 27, 2008 at 12:26 am#94371

Participant

Hi DK,
What philosophy?
It is written that there is an adversary called satan, the dragon, the serpent of old, the devil, the accuser of the brethren, the prince of darkness, the god of this world…… Need more?

Now for your views…where do they spring from?

June 27, 2008 at 4:28 am#94395

Participant

Quote (Cato @ June 26 2008,15:06)

Quote (Jodi @ June 27 2008,07:56)

[
Irene, I am well aware of the evil that I see growing rapidly in the United States. Moral Christians values are on a major decline. Children have no respect for their parents, materialism is the dominating force in America, and I cannot over emphasize the Massive problem and obsession our culture has with sex. Whether or not I believe these evils come solely from man or partly due to the influence of sinful angels, I am on all accounts a hater of this world and one who desires with my whole heart the coming of Yeshua. So in God's name, I ask you what do I have to fear from not believing in sinful angels?

The material world is not evil nor should we hate it. It is a place of limitations where things and ideas can be tested. It serves it purpose in the multiverse of existence. Remember, “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. In the words of the mythical Hermes Trismegistus “That which is above is as that which is below, and that which is below is as that which is above, to perform the miracles of the one thing.” In this physical plane of limitations we learn discipline and patience. The carnal body is not evil but it is wild and animalistic and needs to be trained to serve the spirit within rather then the reverse as is often the case with the foolish and undisciplined. If one truly looks with an accurate eye to history you will find the world is no worse then in the past and in many ways it is much better.

Hi Cato,

I believe there is a difference between enjoying the modern material world and appreciating God for the conveniences and easy living I have today, verses being shallow and materialistic.

It is a little funny how, even though modern man's life is more convenient, it seems to be filled with a lot more complications and stress. What's that saying, 'the more there is the more a man wants', something like that?

Yes, we can look back in history and pick out things that were better back in the 'good old days,' and just as well one can look back and think, man I am sure glad I was born in today's times verses then.

Mankind has definitely progressed in many ways that are positive, however it seems that now we are going from one extreme to another. From racism and fear of difference, to the acceptance of all different sorts of perversions.

June 27, 2008 at 4:51 am#94401

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,12:26)

Now for your views…where do they spring from?

Nick…

Look again brother…I am agreeing with you

Satan is real…

June 27, 2008 at 4:59 am#94404

GeneBalthrop

Participant

DK…….Then was Peter him. Jesus called him Satan.

June 27, 2008 at 5:54 am#94437

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,16:59)

DK…….Then was Peter him. Jesus called him Satan.

No…but his thoughts were Satans…remember the temptation in the wilderness?…Satan's whole existence is to disrupt GOD's will…Jesus knew this..therefore he told Peter his thoughts were the devils…

June 27, 2008 at 8:46 am#94444

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,16:59)

DK…….Then was Peter him. Jesus called him Satan.

Hi GB,
Did he?
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

June 27, 2008 at 11:37 am#94449

Cato

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,10:24)

Hi cato,
Vessels.
Serpents, men and even donkeys

So if the serpent was a mere vessel why should it be cursed?
If Satan is mentioned freely in other versus why not Gen 3?
Perhaps you are reading a connection into the passage that is not there. If you view the serpent of Eden as Satan then the whole story is allegory and symbolic, that includes Adam, Eve and the Garden.

June 27, 2008 at 4:59 pm#94493

Participant

Hi cato,
Should we know the answers to WHY God does what He does?

June 27, 2008 at 5:20 pm#94504

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,01:46)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,16:59)

DK…….Then was Peter him. Jesus called him Satan.

Hi GB,
Did he?
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Nick what does it mean to have something ENTER into your mind?

Your position in viewing scripture is very narrow minded.

Pr 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

Mark 7:20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

Our brains process that which we see, hear, touch, taste and smell. This input then combines with our memory of past input
and feelings, decisions and actions are then created from within.

There is not a single scripture in the bible that tells us that there is an adversary who is a celestial being that can get inside our minds and either willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly influence and affect our actions.

There is not a single scripture in the bible that says celestial beings rule our world with their darkness. Rather the world is a product of man's doing and is dark because it is WITHOUT the light of our Almighty Creator.

We are in the dark not because of a hidden celestial kingdom that hovers over earth, infesting it with evil.

Why must you deny the truth of simple scriptures and assert wild stories from scriptures that use symbolism, which you then don't inturn use the bible to define those symbols, but the traditions of men?

Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

Mr 8:33But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

To be a Satan, is to be MINDFUL of the things of MEN, not of the wickedness of fallen angels.

To be a Satan is to NOT be following the wickedness of angels, but to be following the ways of man, and the ways of man are so clearly identified in the bible as being the result of following the flesh over following the ways of God.

The bible continually tells us that it is from within the mind and heart of man, that the desires of the flesh are aroused.

Sinful angels do not arouse our flesh to sin. The fear of death and our minds internal struggle with survival arouses our flesh to do evil. This is why we read time and time again in the bible about how we need to overcome our sinful nature, and not some hidden sinful angel kingdom.

One man brought the transgression of sin into the world, and thus through that transgression came the punishment of death and the struggle of the mind against the flesh. Death was a necessary punishment to rid man's natural inclination of arrogance and vanity.

From the beginning to the end of the bible, from the beginning of our Creation to the end of this age before Christ returns, we see when man is given any sort of power, whether it be in the form of knowledge or wealth and gains authority over others, he becomes puffed up in pride and arrogance and he must be brought down and humbled.

Christ however overcame this, even though he had been given by God all power and authority, he overcame, remaining a complete humble soul, and by this he conquered that which was in the beginning, the serpent, destroying the enmity. Even though God made Christ a god, Christ did not view himself as a god, but remained humble. Adam was put in charge of the Garden and was given Eve as a helper, but he did not remain humble, he wanted to be a god and pride and arrogance got a hold of him.

As we bore the image of Adam, so we will bear the image of Christ. First we are natural, of the serpents seed, then comes Christ who with the Spirit of God destroys the serpent, the old man, the enmity in the flesh,and he becomes a life giving spirit.

When Christ returns the humble shall inherit the earth and the serpent will be put away. After a thousand years the second resurrection will come and God for a time will allow the serpent to dwell on earth again, meaning that God will allow sinful men to have some power over part of the earth allowing for their pride and arrogance to grow, no doubt it will be the forces of such resurrected men as Hitler and Stalin. A great battle will be had, between Christ and his people and these men of sin. These men of sin and their followers will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be mentally tortured until the point of which they become humble men.

The idea that there is a hidden evil celestial kingdom hovering over us is the work of man's traditions/paganism being used to interpret the bible.

Nick, why must you distort the simple truth and follow a doctrine that bears no fruit?

Man in his flesh hungers and is in a state of survival where other men are adversaries in the form of competition. Greed takes a hold of man according to his flesh. Judas desired MONEY and greed entered into him, which then his brain acted upon that greed and betrayal to Yeshua was committed.

What bears more fruit –
To tell someone to watch out for sinful angels who can affect you without you even knowing it. Ask God to keep you from these monsters circling above us ready to secretly take advantage of us?

Or Telling someone to deny the desires of their flesh, keeping in mind that God will provide for them all that they need. Tell them to live keeping in mind that though we may die we are promised the resurrection, so put away the body of sin and live embracing that promise.

June 27, 2008 at 6:50 pm#94509

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Jodi……….Amen Sister. The devil comes from within the mind of carnal men. And is received from the world. > “for all thats in the world the lust of the flesh ,the lust of the eyes, the pride of life are from the world, and the world is passing away and the lusts with it”> Man is infected with this from berth , much like a virus infects people and it take the antidote of God Spirit in order to kill the infection he has contracted.

Jesus had this antidote in him at berth and the infection of sin could not take him over, Because the antidote (Holy Spirit) killed it.

No one on there own can overcome sin we must overcome it like Jesus did, with Gods Spirit.
Thats why Jesus said whosoever overcomes (even) as I Have , we have to do it the same way by the Same Spirit Jesus Had. God's Spirit is the antidote to sin, Just as a vaccine destroys an infection in our bodies, so also Gods Spirit causes sin to go into remission in Us. And while it's in remission in us it's still there and will remain until we are completely born of Spirit. Like it says whosoever is born of the Spirit can not sin. When were are completely born of Spirit we will never sin again.

IMO……gene

June 27, 2008 at 6:57 pm#94511

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,11:50)

Jesus had this antidote in him at berth and the infection of sin could not take him over, Because the antidote (Holy Spirit) killed it.

IMO……gene

Thanks Gene,

Amen to you too Brother, very good insight!

June 27, 2008 at 8:43 pm#94516

Participant

Hi GB,
Did Jesus see the carnal minds of men falling from heaven?Did the mind of carnal man take Jesus to the top of the temple?
Did the carnal mind of a man enter Judas?

You really should not publicly deny scripture.

June 27, 2008 at 9:44 pm#94527

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,13:43)

Hi GB,
Did Jesus see the carnal minds of men falling from heaven?Did the mind of carnal man take Jesus to the top of the temple?
Did the carnal mind of a man enter Judas?

You really should not publicly deny scripture.

Hi Nick,

Yes, Yes and Yes!

The carnal mind is vein and ignorant thinks he can be a god and go against the will of God. I find the idea that an angel who dwelt with God in His abode, face to face with all His glory and honor, could think that he could possibly go against His will.

Yeshua saw the plan of God where vein and arrogant men in their positions of power would be cut down from that position.

Can one man with authority, power, and wealth not tempt another man to follow him?

Cannot lust, jealousy, hatred and guilt enter into our minds and cause us to sin?

Job 20:4: “Surely you know how it has been from of old, ever since man was placed on the earth, 5 that the mirth of the wicked is brief, the joy of the godless lasts but a moment. 6 Though his pride reaches to the heavens and his head touches the clouds, 7 he will perish forever, like his own dung; those who have seen him will say, 'Where is he?'

Pr 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Jer 49:16 The terror you inspire and the pride of your heart have deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks, who occupy the heights of the hill. Though you build your nest as high as the eagle's, from there I will bring you down,” declares the Lord.

Ob 1:3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks and make your home on the heights, you who say to yourself, 'Who can bring me down to the ground?'

Isaiah 14:13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

14:15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

14:16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,

Can we really trust that there will be NO SIN on earth upon the establishment of Yeshua's rule, where it is to be on earth as it is in heaven, if angels are capable of committing sin in God's presence and within His Holy and Righteous abode?

Ps 118:20This [is] the gate to Jehovah, The righteous enter into it.

Ps 140:13 Only — the righteous give thanks to Thy name, The upright do dwell with Thy presence!

The idea of an angel falling from the presence of God is so absurd. It destroys all of God's credibility of Him being able to bring peace to earth, if He can't even manage to keep it with the angels of whom dwelt in His presence and already possessed the gift of immortality.

Matthew 6:9 “Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Jeremiah 25:30 – And thou, thou dost prophesy unto them all these words, and hast said unto them: Jehovah from the high place doth roar, And from His holy habitation giveth forth His voice, He surely roareth for His habitation, A shout as of treaders down, God answereth all the inhabitants of the land,

What Holy Habitation? What authority, if God cannot even keep sin and peace out of the the place of which He dwells?

The dragon in Revelations is directly said to represent Kingdoms on earth and is never said to be a pack of sinful angels fighting God in His Heavenly abode. The rulers of these Kingdoms think that they are above God, but God will cut them down, they will fall. They will see their fall coming and know that they have little time left, so they will try to cause as much destruction as they possible can until their bitter end.

June 27, 2008 at 9:58 pm#94531