Satan

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2009,11:39)

I'm curious what you make of 2 cor 4:4:

2 CORINTHIANS 4:4
“among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

Jesus also spoke of “the ruler of the world” who was clearly in opposition to him. I wonder who you think this is?
JOHN 14:30
“I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,”

***

1 JOHN 3:8
“He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil.”

Or,

1 JOHN 3:8
“He who carries on sin originates with the slanderer, because the slanderer has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the slanderer.”

To me, this seems like one person, who has been sinning from the beginning. What man existed in the beginning that still exists?

LUKE 10:18
“At that he said to them: “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from HEAVEN.”
REVELATION 12:8-9
“but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in HEAVEN. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”
(If you take Revelation to be symoblic, what of Luke's account? Do both accounts not suggest that there is one who is an opposer and slanderer that was cast out of heaven…hence, a spirit creature, not a man.)

MATTHEW 25:41
““Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.”
It seems there is one “slanderer” (devil) and he has messengers (angels.)

If this is a human, who is it?

Hi David,

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

First and foremost, THERE ARE NO OTHER GODS. To say that the god in the text of this scripture is to represent a supernatural being that has powers over man IS TO BELIEVE IN A FALSE GOD. YHWH makes it clear in the Old Testament that NO OTHER being has the powers as He does.

In the Old Testament YHWH makes it clear that false gods have no power. Some people like to claim that false gods are fallen angels in disguise. There is no scriptural backing for this. YHWH has made it clear that false gods and their DEMONS (evil spirits) have no powers. God is the ONLY POWER through His Holy Spirit that can send onto man curses, such as boils or mental confusion.

Revelation 6:4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

I have heard such people as Irene and Georg comment on how it is fallen angels that have control over people and causes them to do evil amongst themselves.

That goes against scripture. God takes peace from the earth, notice how the red horse causes men to kill each other. Man is indeed weak. Bring on famine, and men are known to kill each other over food. Cain who was a murderer and liar from the beginning, and the first person born into a corruptible world through God's punishment of death, killed his brother because he couldn't control his jealous feelings. YHWH brings blessing and cursing, there is NO other being. Man today desires oil, YHWH has been in control of where that oil has been placed upon this earth. He knows what men are capable of doing in order to have it. As I have said man is weak and he is also very predictable, God has been able to expose our weaknesses through testing our flesh.

Who's the god that we SERVE…

Ro 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

To serve the carnal mind is death.

Mt 6: 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

There is NOTHING in the bible about serving celestial beings who have powers like our Almighty God. We can live to serve our flesh or we can live to serve God. ANIMALS LIVE TO SERVE THEIR FLESH. God gave us greater intelligence so that we could overcome our carnal nature. First natural then spiritual.

Jesus says that you cannot serve God and mammon.

Php 3:19whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things.

Jesus does not say that you cannot serve God and fallen angels.

To be carnally minded doesn't mean to follow fallen angels.

We are slaves of our bodies, thus servants of our bodies, thus why it is said that our b
elly is our god. Beasts roam around
and their behavior is based upon their natural instincts, hence why they would do such things as eat their own children, or attack another animal for stepping foot in their territory.

Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

David, who was the ruler during the time of Jesus? Who was in charge and put Jesus on the cross?

All wicked men are led by one and the same force, of which the bible identifies as our carnal nature. The wisdom of God working in us is working against our flesh, not working against influences of evil supernatural beings.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Re 2:10Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The adversary, the slanderer, would be the man or government that was in charge at the time the early Christians were being persecuted. Man and his institutions are run not by invisible evil beings, or fallen angels, but by the carnal mind that knows not God's ways.

1 JOHN 3:8 “He who carries on sin originates with the slanderer, because the slanderer has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the slanderer.”

Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–

The firstborn into the world of death was Cain, who was a murderer and a liar.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

David think about what those scriptures are saying.

To be carnally minded is death
Slanderer holds the power of death.

Our carnal mind tells us that in order to live we must serve our flesh. This is a lie, for it is God that we must serve in order to live. God gave His Spirit in Jesus like no other man, and with that Spirit he was able to do what no other man did, which was to completely deny his flesh, keeping himself from sin.

I realize that I keep using many scriptures over again, but it seems as if people on this forum are not hearing these scriptures. They certainly are not addressing them. I just go by what makes the best sense to me. Time and time again our weak flesh is shown to be our enemy, so when we see the use of the word slanderer as representing a particular person, like for example in Revelation 2, I see a man and a government that is bound according to the ways of man, according to the ways of the carnal mind.

David, do not forget that Peter was called Satan for having in mind the things of men. To be carnally minded is CERTAINLY TO HAVE IN MIND THE THINGS OF MEN, and not the things of God.

January 13, 2009 at 4:53 am#117441

Participant

Hi JKodi,
It seem sad you spend so much vain energy in defence of the evil one.

January 13, 2009 at 5:47 am#117445

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2009,20:53)

Hi JKodi,
It seem sad you spend so much vain energy in defence of the evil one.

Hi Gracious Wonderful Almighty Nick,

Would you like to embrace us further with your extreme intelligence, and elaborate to us further on your accusation that my posts defend the evil one?

For on the contraire, evil is still evil, so therefore how is it that just because I state a different identity of the evil that means I am defending the evil.

January 13, 2009 at 6:10 am#117446

Participant

Hi Jodi,
It is great to know that all evil is not in the hands of men. They are mere vain self important vessels manipulated by greater powers including their ultimate master, the prince of darkness. As Jesus said more or less, deal with the strong man and the rest is relatively easy.

January 13, 2009 at 6:28 am#117449

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2009,22:10)

Sorry Nick, that is just not scripture, you are speaking through vanity.

Evil comes from within man out of his own heart, out of his own mind, just as the Old and New Testament repeatedly state. You speak of a pagan mind and pagan ideas.

Nick stop denying Jesus

20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

January 13, 2009 at 6:59 am#117455

Participant

Hi Jodi,
I prefer the teachings of Jesus.
But you do put a lot of work into this obsession.

January 13, 2009 at 7:23 am#117456

Participant

Hi Jodi,
For someone who does not believe in Satan you spend an inordinate amount of time here bolstering that thought-almost as if you are not yet absolutely convinced. Who knows?

January 13, 2009 at 4:28 pm#117470

Participant

EXcellent! Yes I am OBSESSED with scripture.

MY understanding comes from READING scripture and THINKING about scriptures. I read slow and think long and hard. This is necessary so that when I read a scripture I am taking it for what it says and not from that which I have been told by others.

Others on this forum have a problem with this, some have even accused me of THINKING TO MUCH.

I read scripture in context and apply other scriptures, thus using common sense, to form what makes the best sense to me given the nature and nurture of which God's Will has supplied to my brain.

Instead of LYING ABOUT ME, YOU DEVIL, saying that I don't believe in the scriptures that uses the word adversary, why don't you actually USE the scriptures of which I give and show how I am wrong.

What are you Nick, like the RCC, wanting to RESTRICT my access to the bible. Since WHEN is reading scripture excessively, a bad thing?

January 13, 2009 at 4:36 pm#117472

Participant

Nick………Then if you prefer the teachings of Christ , why do you deny them then, Jesus plainly said that what defiles a man was what comes out of (HIS) Mouth for it proceeds from (HIS) own Heart , not some boogie man going around jumping in and out of people. Jodi has posted many scriptures and i haven't seen you be able to disprove any of them different. You accusing people and attacking there faith is a very great sin, Your positioning yourself as the preserver of what is truth, is as phony as a three dollar bill. But i have to give it to you no matter how much proof is given you still will not admit it you were wrong. Pride is a terrible thing , but God resists the proud and gives GRACE to the Humble.

love and peace to you…………….gene

January 13, 2009 at 4:51 pm#117473

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2009,17:10)

Nick………I what you say is true , then why would GOd hold Us responsible for our sins, when according to your reasioning they are caused by some spook jumping in and out of us. So You say the Devil makes us do it right. PURE STUPIDITY.

You need to come out of those false pagan Catholic church teachings . Again for the hundredth time , there is no real person that is (THE) Devil, or SATAN, those words are descriptors of and ADVERSARIAL SPIRIT (intellect) thats in a person. You resisting this truth also makes you a SATAN, or ADVERSARY, to truth.

love and peace to you………………..gene

January 13, 2009 at 5:22 pm#117475

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 13 2009,14:53)

Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2009,11:39)

I'm curious what you make of 2 cor 4:4:

***

Or,

To me, this seems like one person, who has been sinning from the beginning. What man existed in the beginning that still exists?

If this is a human, who is it?

Hi David,

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I have heard such people as Irene and Georg comment on how it is fallen angels that have control over people and causes them to do evil amongst themselves.

Who's the god that we SERVE…

Ro 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

To serve the carnal mind is death.

Jesus says that you cannot serve God and mammon.

Php 3:19whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame–who set their mind on earthly things.

Jesus does
not say that you cannot serve God and fallen angels.

To be carnally minded doesn't mean to follow fallen angels.

We are slaves of our bodies, thus servants of our bodies, thus why it is said that our belly is our god. Beasts roam around
and their behavior is based upon their natural instincts, hence why they would do such things as eat their own children, or attack another animal for stepping foot in their territory.

Ro 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

David, who was the ruler during the time of Jesus? Who was in charge and put Jesus on the cross?

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–

The firstborn into the world of death was Cain, who was a murderer and a liar.

David think about what those scriptures are saying.

To be carnally minded is death
Slanderer holds the power of death.

David, do not forget that Peter was called Satan for having in mind the things of men. To be carnally minded is CERTAINLY TO HAVE IN MIND THE THINGS OF MEN, and not the things of God.

Jodi……Amen , Amen, sis, Have you ever thought about collecting all you material on this subject and writing a book on it, You have no idea how many people could be Helped by understanding , That Satan or Devils or Demons are simple the EVIL influencing in the HEART OF MAN , Not some spook going around jumping in and out of People, like these lying churches and teachers would like people to believe.

Peace and Love to you and yours Jodi………….gene

January 13, 2009 at 5:26 pm#117476

Participant

GB,
Was the serpent vessel not punished?

Gen1
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

It is the way of God that those who serve evil are held responsible.
Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

January 13, 2009 at 5:43 pm#117479

Participant

Nick……..So why hole Us responsible for any thing then, see it the “SERPENT VESSEL”, thats causing it all then , Just Kill the serpent and for give all of us, because it really wasn't our fault, right? Pure Stupidity< God is Just and Judges ever man according to the way (HE) is. not some boogie man inside of Him. Life contains GOOD and EVIL what we take in of these is what comes out of Us, and we recieve it from the World not some spook as John plainly said, "For (ALL ALL ALL ALL) thats (IN IN IN IN) the WORLD, the LUST of the FLESH and the LUST of the EYES, and the PRIDE of LIFE, (ARE ARE ARE ARE) (FROM FROM FROM FROM) (the WORLD, the WORLD, the WORLD). Now tell us do you see any spook mentioned there. A simple YES or NO will suffice. SIN came IN to the WORLD BY MAN not some SPOOK. Jodi is right you need to reread what she wrote and this time really think about it.

peace and love ……………………gene

January 13, 2009 at 5:52 pm#117480

Participant

GB,
Should God not hold men responsible for sin just because Satan tempted them to sin?
Taoism philosophy holds no water so I do not know why you keep offering it.

January 13, 2009 at 6:05 pm#117484

Tiffany

Participant

Gen And for the thousant time you are wrong. It is bibical that Satan fell from Heaven. Unlress you want to call Jesus a liar! It has nothing to do with a pagan Cathlic belief.
Mark 1:13 And He Jesus was there in the wilderness forty days and was tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beast, and then the angels ministered to Him.

In Luke He (Satan) is testing Jesus, He said:
Luke 2:1 Then Jesus filled with Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.
Verse 2 being tempted by for forty days and night He has ate nothing or drank anything, the devil said
Verse 3” If you are the Son of God command these stones to turn into bread to eat.” He was going to give Him everything, but Jesus said:” GET BEHIND ME SATAN! FOR IT IS WRITTEN “ YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE.”

Ask yourself if this could be possible if all this is in a mind of a person, test yourself, that is not what it says. Satan is a real being, that fell from heaven when He sinned against God and wanted to be like God and take over His Throne.
Rev. 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, he was cast to the earth, and his angels with him.
There are other Scriptures about Satan.
Peace and Love Irene

January 13, 2009 at 6:13 pm#117485

Participant

Gene, thanks so much for your encouragement. My husband has also encouraged me to write a book, and especially in the last few weeks, I have really come to the conclusion that I should.

Peace and love to you, Jodi

January 13, 2009 at 6:13 pm#117486

Participant

Nick……..Your the one saying some being is causing all this and evading the truth that it is the man himself that is the source of the sin and evil he does not me. I believe we are held accountable for what we do and we are also responsible for it, not some spook going around jumping in and out of People as you believe.

The only thing that can tempt man to sin , is the man himself stratifying the LUSTS in Him which He received from the (WORLD) not some spook or boogie man.

and who is talking about Taoism Philosophy quite trying to change the subject, You very good a switching subject aren't you, as i said you can't corner a snake in a Brier Patch.

peace………………..gene

January 13, 2009 at 6:15 pm#117487

Participant

GB,
You say
“You resisting this truth also makes you a SATAN, or ADVERSARY, to truth.”

Does sharing what scripture says, when it does not agree with your philosophies
condemn us as adversaries?

January 13, 2009 at 6:28 pm#117488