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Here in God’s word, lies proof of the eternal past existence of Jesus, the Son of God.
Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Think about this…
Before the first created thing, there had to be some creative presence eternally existing in order to cause the first created thing to even be created. That eternally existing thing would not only be the CREATOR OF the newly existing thing but also THE BEGINNING OF that newly created thing. Creation depends on the existence of a beginning BEFORE creation can even exist. We are told in Rev 3:14, that beginning is Jesus. Creation depends on Jesus’ eternal existence since Jesus IS the beginning of creation. It is impossible for Jesus to be the first created thing and also the beginning of creation. The beginning of creation must come before the first created thing.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The beginning of an object depends on there to be a time beforehand when the object did not exist. The object’s existence depends on that beginning to exist before it can exist itself.The beginning of creation depends on there to be a time beforehand when creation did not exist. Creation’s existence depends on that beginning to exist BEFORE it can exist itself.
Praise you Jesus for being our beginning from which creation is from.
There is a huge difference between “the beginning” and “the beginner.” In the scriptures (as well as in our everyday language) “the beginning of ….” refers to the very first one in the category of those who are mentioned after the word “of.”
So Jesus (the Son) is not claiming to be the beginner of creation, but rather the first one (the beginning) of all creation. The Creator himself would be, as the title clearly implies, the Father. The Father’s first creation, then, is the Son, “through whom” He created the rest of creation.
@tigger, you are trying to tell us that the creator created the beginning of the creation of God through the beginning of the creation of God. That is not possible. That is why you have to add ‘the rest of’ to ‘He created creation’ in your response. Btw, how could He create ‘in the beginning’ if the beginning did not already exist?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. In the Son, the Father created the heavens and the earth.
In the verse you quote from Revelation”the beginning of the creation of God”,the beginning merely means origin and some translations word it as such. This appears to me as reason/origin/ultimate source of God’s creation.From such you can argue for Jesus preexistence,but from the Apocalypse or Revelation by itself it doesn’t prove or say he is the creator.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Even this revelation of things that were supposedly to soon come to pass came from God,to Jesus,to an angel,to John.So Jesus didn’t know this revelation until God gave it to him.
Amen AndrewAD.
This is the divine order.
The head of the man is Christ, the head of Christ is God. There is no Head to God. He is the Most High.
God gave us the ability to understand that God is the Most High. Let’s face it, someone has to be the Most High and before everyone else. The Father is called the Father for a good reason. He is the Father of spirits. His spirit gives life. This life is dispensed through his son.
There is a huge difference between “the beginning” and “the beginner.” In the scriptures (as well as in our everyday language) “the beginning of ….” refers to the very first one in the category of those who are mentioned after the word “of.”
God hands people over delusions when they push against his truth. He resists them for a time, then let’s them go their way in hopes of teaching them a lesson when they end up in a wilderness of their own making.
Many reject that there is one God the Father who is over all and through all. Instead they stick to their traditions and false teachings that bring God down to a triune being who has shared glory with other persons or they make Jesus out to be God so that they deny that he is the son of that God and the one whom God made Lord which we know is the Devil’s work.
We know that the Gates Of Hell try to deny that Jesus is the messiah and son but will not prevail. Further, that it is the antichrist spirit that denies the Father and the Son. Finally, that we are told that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God.
Many need to repent and realise that Jesus is of God. ‘OF’ being the operative word as you point out.
But we know that even during the tribulation, that many will not repent of worship of idols and will keep their traditions to the end. Of course not all are like that. Those that seek will find. Those that do not seek will instead end up deluded. God sends strong delusion to those that reject the truth.
@t8
Can God the Father create the beginning of the creation of God in the beginning of the creation of God if the beginning of the creation of God did not yet exist?
Hint: Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. He was already there before the first thing was created and we know from John 1:3 that nothing was made without Jesus already in existence.
Hi Lightenup, I hope you are well and I’m glad to be back and see you here.
Do you still think Jesus came into existence when God said”let there be light”? I seem to recall you saying something to that effect,but I could be mistaken or you could’ve changed your mind on that which is okay too.
But as to your question,if God existed before he created or existed before he ever thought of creating then the answer is yes.
If you want to think Jesus is his own father and his own son at the same time,that’s okay with me.Most trinitarians are modalists who don’t know they are.Do you agree with the statement many so called trinitarians make that Jesus is the only God,or God’s name is Jesus?
I know you are an Arian at heart and most of the scriptures themselves favor the Arian view but the theology had to evolve beyond that for good reasons.
Welcome back AndrewAD!
It has been a while. I don’t really remember what your Christology is, so forgive me for my lack of memory…
You don’t remember my Christology either from what you wrote in your post. Arians, although they believe in the pre-existence of the Son, they believe that there was a time when the Son ‘was not’ in other words, there was a time when He did not exist. I do not agree with that. I believe that the Son has always been the offspring of God the Father and has always been a part of the Father, not the Father Himself but a part of Him. I don’t believe, like some that He was an attribute of God that somehow became a Son but I believe that He was the living offspring that always was a Son.
You do remember that I believed that the moment when God said “Let there be Light” is significant so, good for you to remember that. 🙂 I do still think that has to do, probably, with when the Son was brought ‘out’ of God the Father…begotten before the world began.
As I stated in the OP, since Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God and God created the world through Him, then He had to have been there before God created the world through Him. If He is the first creation as the Arians would believe, then God the Father created the beginning of the creation of God, in the beginning of the creation of God. That is impossible to create the beginning in the beginning. The beginning must be there beforehand in order to create in the beginning.
Thank you for your post!
I would like to point out that in this verse:
Rev 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Jesus is the ‘beginning of the creation of God” which is not the same thing as saying that He is the ‘beginning creation of God,’ which so many want to believe Him to be. He was not created. He always existed and in Him and through Him the creation exists and is held together. The Father and the Son, with the Spirit of God, have brought creation into existence. One did not do it without the other.
As I have stated in the OP, the ‘beginning of the creation of God’ (That’s the Son) had to have existed in order for creation to have been created in ‘the beginning of the creation of God.’
Can God the Father create the beginning of the creation of God in the beginning of the creation of God if the beginning of the creation of God did not yet exist?
Hint: Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. He was already there before the first thing was created and we know from John 1:3 that nothing was made without Jesus already in existence.
God is eternal and has no beginning. Once he begat Wisdom, brought forth the Logos, or begat the son of God, however way you look at it, the first work is the beginning. Christ is the first. Of course there are many beginnings depending on context. The beginning of the universe, the beginning of mankind, but there is only one beginning of all. It was his son who is that beginning.
God has no beginning.
Once again, the Son is the beginning OF the creation of God, not the beginning creation of God. Learn the difference. One ‘beginning’ is used as a noun and one ‘beginning’ is used as an adjective.
Yes, it is used as a noun. It is used as a noun which governs a genitive noun
(‘beginning of —-’) And so are the following examples:
Matt. 24:8 δὲ ταῦτα ἀρχὴ ὠδίνων
NASB: these things are [merely] the beginning of birth pangs.
ἀρχὴ of… means the first [one] of the birth pangs.
Gen. 49:3 Ρουβην, πρωτότοκός μου σύ, … καὶ ἀρχὴ τέκνων μου – LXX
Reuben, you are my first-born, … and the beginning of my children
ἀρχὴ of… means the first [one] of the children.
Deut. 21:17 ἀλλὰ τὸν πρωτότοκον υἱὸν…. ὅτι οὗτός ἐστιν ἀρχὴ τέκνων αὐτοῦ, – LXX
But the first-born son … because he is the beginning of his children,
ἀρχὴ of… means the first [one] of the children.
Rev. 3:14 [Jesus] ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ
the beginning of God’s creation
ἀρχὴ of… means the very first [one] of God’s creation
Hi AndrewAD & T8,
It seems that when Angels are used, as AndrewAD has pointed out, the order seems to be…
YHVH → Jesus Christ → (Angels →) Man → Woman
And as T8 has pointed out, Angels are not always used. Scripture is clear thought, that Jesus Christ is above them.
And Scripture also seems to suggest that we too have power over the Angels, at least power over those of the dark side.___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODI do appreciate your efforts however, you are incorrect. For one, you change the beginning as a noun and turn it into ‘first’ which would be an adjective. The grammar doesn’t support your argument. Also, you treat the word ‘creation’ as if it means ‘creatures’ but that would be a different Greek word and it would also be plural. So that is three strikes against your argument. But there is also a fourth strike and that considers how the author of Rev. uses the word archē throughout the rest of the book of Rev. It is never translated as ‘first’ but in fact it is used in another verse where there is a word translated as ‘first’ but it is a different Greek word than archē and in fact, archē is also in the same verse as translated as ‘beginning.’
Rev 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Sorry tigger, 4 strikes against your argument and your argument is out…This is not bowling where strikes are good.
LU,
Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
I agree that Jesus Christ is the first of creation. He is the supreme leader of creation. Beginning may not be the best way of expressing that meaning but it is the word the translators of at least one version chose to. The beginning is the position of the leader and it clear Jesus is the leader of the creation of God.
I have no idea where you get the idea he is eternal though the Son is if you are calling the God’s Spirit the son. The Spirit is like a son to God just like wisdom is like unto a daughter to him. Jesus was conceived miraculously and his generation is recorded in the gospels.
@t8,
God is eternal and has no beginning. Once he begat Wisdom, brought forth the Logos, or begat the son of God, however way you look at it, the first work is the beginning. Christ is the first. Of course there are many beginnings depending on context. The beginning of the universe, the beginning of mankind, but there is only one beginning of all. It was his son who is that beginning.
In the genealogies of Jesus, he is not called the son of God. Only Adam is called the son of God and Jesus’s decent is traced from him.
kerwin, I suppose you realise that I was not saying or implying that the son of God in the genealogies was Jesus Christ.
It’s real simple LU. God has no beginning. If Jesus is called a beginning or described as the beginning, it makes him the first.
But isn’t God first? Eternal is not first it is all. Eternity encompasses the first, second, etc. Infinity is before ‘first’ and after it.
The Second century fathers often taught that the Logos that was with God was the first work of the Father. This is the very beginning. Before the beginning there was God who is eternal. All was and is in him as potential, until he brings it forth.
Your argument here has as many holes in it as a sieve BTW.
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