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Bo,
So we decide whether we believe the Bible or not…whether Jesus suffered and died and rose again and thus paid the price for our sins, or He didn't. I don't see why this would be a difficult choice. I believe that it was a most loving sacrifice that was made for all who will accept it and we can stand atoned, once for all…grateful for ever and for always. The price was paid in full on the cross.We can't believe in both the Bible and the Koran when they oppose each other in this fundamental doctrine.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 10 2012,14:27) Bo,
So we decide whether we believe the Bible or not…whether Jesus suffered and died and rose again and thus paid the price for our sins, or He didn't. I don't see why this would be a difficult choice. I believe that it was a most loving sacrifice that was made for all who will accept it and we can stand atoned, once for all…grateful for ever and for always. The price was paid in full on the cross.We can't believe in both the Bible and the Koran when they oppose each other in this fundamental doctrine.
I don't see it that way at all. The way I see it is you have “The Gospels according to” They reported all that they heard and saw(or thought they saw) Most of the Disciples were not even present at the Crucifixion at his arrest they all fled:Mark 14:50
And they all forsook him, and fled.Do you think it is more like God to Sacrifice His “Son” then to Save His Son if so why did God say:
Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.then Jesus reaffirms the point himself:
Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.So God prefers Mercy over Sacrifice. You believe He sacrificed His son. The Quran says He had Mercy and didn't allow His son to die.
Also Jesus said he came to call sinners to repentence he did not say that he came to die in place of sinners.
I believe both books go in a single straight line, just remember
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
He gave does not mean “he gave up” or “Sacrificed” because Jesus says
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.This is what a Muslim believes
Hi Bo,
Matt 12:7
“But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.Do you see that they condemned the innocent?
Do you see how offering a sacrifice without loving God and loving your neighbor is a dead work? That would be a sacrifice without compassion, just going through the motion to satisfy a law so to speak. That is what that verse is talking about from what I can tell. It is not telling us that He doesn't want us to offer ourselves as a sacrifice. He does, He wants us to offer ourselves to serve the Son together with the Father with a heart of devotion, not with a hard heart that is just going through the motions.
It was the Father's love and compassion that caused Him to give His Son unto death and it was the Father's love and mercy that He saved His Son from decay after His death and raised Him from the dead and sat Him down on His throne. If He saved His Son from dying, He could not save us. That was merciful that He allowed the Son to die and to cleanse us with His blood so that we could serve a living God.
Heb 9:13
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?Quote I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. His coming and shedding His blood on the cross, bearing our sins is what makes it possible to have life again after we die, and to have it abundantly. WITHOUT the shedding of His blood and bearing our sins, we have no assurance of abundant life after death.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2012,09:33) Hi Bo,
Matt 12:7
“But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.Do you see that they condemned the innocent?
Do you see how offering a sacrifice without loving God and loving your neighbor is a dead work? That would be a sacrifice without compassion, just going through the motion to satisfy a law so to speak. That is what that verse is talking about from what I can tell. It is not telling us that He doesn't want us to offer ourselves as a sacrifice. He does, He wants us to offer ourselves to serve the Son together with the Father with a heart of devotion, not with a hard heart that is just going through the motions.
It was the Father's love and compassion that caused Him to give His Son unto death and it was the Father's love and mercy that He saved His Son from decay after His death and raised Him from the dead and sat Him down on His throne. If He saved His Son from dying, He could not save us. That was merciful that He allowed the Son to die and to cleanse us with His blood so that we could serve a living God.
Heb 9:13
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?Quote I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. His coming and shedding His blood on the cross, bearing our sins is what makes it possible to have life again after we die, and to have it abundantly. WITHOUT the shedding of His blood and bearing our sins, we have no assurance of abundant life after death.
Exactly “they condemned” The innocent it was not God's will that Jesus be condemned, God hates the shedding of innocent blood it does not please Him at all.God doesn't need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive anyone or to grant anyone eternal life, do you not understand that?
If that were the case there would have been no reason for Jesus, John and all the others throughout time to preach repentance for the remission of sins.
And the best point you made was “Do you see how offering a sacrifice without loving God and loving your neighbor is a dead work?”
Was Jesus offered up to God in some loving way or were they commiting MURDER of the INNOCENT? This is how you can know that God did not offer Jesus as any sort of sacrifice because even the rules of sacrifice forbid torture of the sacrifice offered up.
Jesus was saved from this betrayal and murderous plot and you should be happy but what can you do? You really believe no tortured murdered Jesus no salvation for you, so it is not in your own self interest to believe Jesus could have possibly been saved by God because then you would be resposible for your own sins and your own repentance.
It was God's will for Jesus to endure the cross and to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished–Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2012,10:06) It was God's will for Jesus to endure the cross and to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished–Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
These are coming out of the scriptures but the issue now is, were they saying these things because they were facts or because they were trying to understand what had occured?For instance Romans 3:25 did God leave the sins of Adam unpunished?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2012,10:51) Bo,
I take them as facts. I believe God's Word, the Bible. These facts changed the world.
Once again Romans 3:25 did God leave the sins of Adam unpunished?Also the Quran has changed the world just as profoundly yet you deny it as containing facts, why?
Bo,
I haven't thought much about Romans 3:25 but this is my unscholarly opinion. Adam was punished since he was cast out of the garden, had to work harder, died, to name a few of the punishments…also did not have the same kind of relationship with God as before. So, the verse may be talking about eternal punishment. Before Jesus died, all man sinned and needed redemption. The animal sacrifices were insufficient to pay the complete price for their sin in order to redeem them once and for all. God saw all men's (Jews and Gentiles) opportunity for complete redemption through the future death and resurrection of His Son and in that way God forebeared with that sin. To sum up…all sin has been paid for-past, present, and future, through faith in the redemptive act of the Son.Quote Also the Quran has changed the world just as profoundly yet you deny it as containing facts, why? The so called facts in the quran contradict the important facts of the Bible, i.e. Jesus was actually the Son of God, literally…and Jesus suffered, died, and was buried but resurrected on the third day which paid for the sins of all mankind. We are saved by receiving that grace and believing in the Father and Son as our God and Lord through their Holy Spirit. The quran by denying these basic fundamentals for our salvation, takes away our salvation.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2012,14:38) Bo,
I haven't thought much about Romans 3:25 but this is my unscholarly opinion. Adam was punished since he was cast out of the garden, had to work harder, died, to name a few of the punishments…also did not have the same kind of relationship with God as before. So, the verse may be talking about eternal punishment. Before Jesus died, all man sinned and needed redemption. The animal sacrifices were insufficient to pay the complete price for their sin in order to redeem them once and for all. God saw all men's (Jews and Gentiles) opportunity for complete redemption through the future death and resurrection of His Son and in that way God forebeared with that sin. To sum up…all sin has been paid for-past, present, and future, through faith in the redemptive act of the Son.Quote Also the Quran has changed the world just as profoundly yet you deny it as containing facts, why? The so called facts in the quran contradict the important facts of the Bible, i.e. Jesus was actually the Son of God, literally…and Jesus suffered, died, and was buried but resurrected on the third day which paid for the sins of all mankind. We are saved by receiving that grace and believing in the Father and Son as our God and Lord through their Holy Spirit. The quran by denying these basic fundamentals for our salvation, takes away our salvation.
Salvation is based on the grace of God not in any works of men or a single man. True or False?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2012,11:35) Our salvation is based on the work of one who is both theos and man, not on our works.
Can you tell me what exactly was lost? Because what you are saying is that 3 days of “death” is a Sacrifice, people in comas are out much longer than that.My point is if Jesus is God and knew he wouldn't stay dead then there is no sacrifice but if he was a human and faced mortality that is totaly different
Bo,
He emptied Himself to become much lower than He was to serve those who should be serving Him, and then suffered and died for the same.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2012,07:21) Bo,
He emptied Himself to become much lower than He was to serve those who should be serving Him, and then suffered and died for the same.
I am asking ou what was lost? He didn't lose his life if it is eternal so what was lost?And if he is God and planned this from the beginning how could people be guilty of sin anyway? You have to understand you are saying that sin was planned so that God could sacrifice God to take away sin for those that believe in God.
Bo,
Hello! I hope your holiday was refreshing. Sorry that I haven't responded in several days. I was out of town and did not spend too much time online.you asked:
Quote am asking ou what was lost? He didn't lose his life if it is eternal so what was lost? It seems to me that one of the things He gave up was His eternal life since He died. He also gave up the glory that He had with the Father before the foundation of the earth. He received both back. He also lost being treated as the one to be served by becoming the one who served those who should be serving Him. This is just a few things that He gave up…lost.
Quote And if he is God and planned this from the beginning how could people be guilty of sin anyway? You have to understand you are saying that sin was planned so that God could sacrifice God to take away sin for those that believe in God. I think that there were two options planned as shown in the two trees, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Man chose the wrong option which required a savior. A Savior was already planned if man chose the wrong option because of the love and wisdom of God. Because of Christ's death and resurrection, the tree of Life is available to all who believe and receive that which was paid for by Christ…eternal life.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2012,06:14) Bo,
Hello! I hope your holiday was refreshing. Sorry that I haven't responded in several days. I was out of town and did not spend too much time online.you asked:
Quote am asking ou what was lost? He didn't lose his life if it is eternal so what was lost? It seems to me that one of the things He gave up was His eternal life since He died. He also gave up the glory that He had with the Father before the foundation of the earth. He received both back. He also lost being treated as the one to be served by becoming the one who served those who should be serving Him. This is just a few things that He gave up…lost.
Quote And if he is God and planned this from the beginning how could people be guilty of sin anyway? You have to understand you are saying that sin was planned so that God could sacrifice God to take away sin for those that believe in God. I think that there were two options planned as shown in the two trees, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Man chose the wrong option which required a savior. A Savior was already planned if man chose the wrong option because of the love and wisdom of God. Because of Christ's death and resurrection, the tree of Life is available to all who believe and receive that which was paid for by Christ…eternal life.
Okay, so you are saying the choice the man would make was not known?Was the issue of the man being deceived/tempted known before hand?
Bo,
The notion that we may need a savior messiah was planned by the wisdom of God before the foundation of the world, so the possibility of man being deceived/tempted was known.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,06:31) Bo,
The notion that we may need a savior messiah was planned by the wisdom of God before the foundation of the world, so the possibility of man being deceived/tempted was known.
So was the idea of forgiveness planned before the man was tempted? If So what is the function of the messiah?I believe the Messiah leads men to forgiveness and repentence. Were men able to be forgiven before the messiah came?
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