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Bo,
That video supports the authority of the Bible, it doesn't seek to surpass it. Do you have questions about the video?Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2012,16:38) Bo,
That video supports the authority of the Bible, it doesn't seek to surpass it. Do you have questions about the video?
No, The Bible does not support the video. Jesus says “The Father is greater than I”You seem to not believe what Jesus says if the Father is greater what does that mean to you?
Bo,
What was said in the video to make you think that it is not saying that the Father is greater?If one of the two 'powers' in heaven came from within the other 'power' then the 'power' that brought forth the 2nd one would be greater in the sense that the 1st 'power' was able to being another 'power' just like Him forth and was not 'brought forth' Himself.
It is an established fact that the Jews recognized 'two powers' in Heaven and both are referred to as YHWH and I believe that the speaker in the video establishes that.
Do you agree that the Bible speaks of two powers who are both referred to as YHWH?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2012,09:56) Bo,
What was said in the video to make you think that it is not saying that the Father is greater?If one of the two 'powers' in heaven came from within the other 'power' then the 'power' that brought forth the 2nd one would be greater in the sense that the 1st 'power' was able to being another 'power' just like Him forth and was not 'brought forth' Himself.
It is an established fact that the Jews recognized 'two powers' in Heaven and both are referred to as YHWH and I believe that the speaker in the video establishes that.
Do you agree that the Bible speaks of two powers who are both referred to as YHWH?
No I see that the Bible CLEARLY points out the Shema of Israel that there is ONLY ONE GOD.
“Here o Israel The Lord God is ONE LORD”Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 24 2012,11:07) The video does not disagree with the Shema, it supports it.
Hi KathiDo you believe that there is only ONE LORD GOD?
If So what are we debating for? The reason we are debating is I am of the opinion you believe that there are 2 Gods which are both Lords, is that wrong?
If that opinion is right it does not agree with the Shema of Israel
“Hear O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God [Elohim; plural], the LORD [Yahweh] is One [echad; unity].”
This is my confession.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 24 2012,18:23) “Hear O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God [Elohim; plural], the LORD [Yahweh] is One [echad; unity].” This is my confession.
So you then believe that Jesus is Yahweh then what is the Name of his God and is his God also Plural?They are both YHWH. Do you not know what a unity means…
Do YOU believe the Shema? YHWH our Elohim, YHWH is one? Nothing there mentions allah. Is YHWH your God?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2012,13:04) They are both YHWH. Do you not know what a unity means… Do YOU believe the Shema? YHWH our Elohim, YHWH is one? Nothing there mentions allah. Is YHWH your God?
First of all using a distraction is not the best method to arrive at truth, however let's first capture what my actual response was in which I asked you “then what is the Name of The Father”?Now in regarding Allah nothing there also mentions YHWH if you are reading an english speaking Bible . but do you remember what Moses said?
Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.Keep in mind that Islam purports to be the Original Religion i.e. the religion of Abraham.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2012,15:40) Bo,
Is YHWH your God?
Hi Kathi
That's a strange question coming from you because you don't believe that YHWH is a single God, but Yes YHWH is my God and your God. YHWH is The Only God that is why ALLAH means “The God” as in there isno other God to compare to
Bo,
Did you know that 'echad' can mean a unity of more than one member? The word is used here for two persons becoming one flesh, many people with one voice, and many people becoming one people for example:Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
Exodus 24:3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!”
Genesis 34:22 “Only on this condition will the men consent to us to live with us, to become one people: that every male among us be circumcised as they are circumcised.
Do you agree that the Shema declares YHWH as echad?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,05:10) Bo,
Did you know that 'echad' can mean a unity of more than one member? The word is used here for two persons becoming one flesh, many people with one voice, and many people becoming one people for example:Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
Exodus 24:3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!”
Genesis 34:22 “Only on this condition will the men consent to us to live with us, to become one people: that every male among us be circumcised as they are circumcised.
Do you agree that the Shema declares YHWH as echad?
Yes, and Echad is used pertaining to more than one member very seldom most usages are numerical but here is proof of what I am saying.Deuteronomy 32:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 So the Lord alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.
Deuteronomy 32:12
יהוה בדד ינחנו ואין עמו אל נכר
Literally: YHWH alone he-is-guiding-him and-there-is-no with-him El-of foreigner.
also
Deuteronomy 32:39
King James Version (KJV)
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Deuteronomy 32:39
ראו עתה כי אני אני הוא ואין אלהים עמדי אני אמית ואחיה מחצתי ואני ארפא ואין מידי מציל
Literally: see-you! now that I, I he and-there-is-no Elohim with-me I, I-am-putting-to-death and-I-am-making-alive I-transfixed and-I, I-shall-heal and-there-is-no from-hand-of-me one-rescuing.
God is saying here that there is no other MEMBER HE says that HE is ALONE. I believe God
plus look at this
Isaiah 43:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:10-11
אתם עדי נאם־יהוה ועבדי אשר בחרתי למען תדעו ותאמינו לי ותבינו כי־אני הוא לפני לא־נוצר אל ואחרי לא יהיה׃ אנכי אנכי יהוה ואין מבלעדי מושיע
Literally: you witnesses-of-me averment-of YHWH and-servant-of-me whom I-choose so-that you-shall-know and-you-shall-believe to-me and-you-shall-understand that I he to-faces-of-me not he-was-formed El and-after-me not he-shall become. I, I YHWH and-there-is-no from-apart-from-me one-saving.
Now when you see that last verse how do you consider Jesus a literal God when God says
King James Version (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
This is in complete harmony with The Quran that says:
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
( سورة الإخلاص , Al-Ikhlas, Chapter #112, Verse #3)How do you answer this
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,09:38) Hi Bo,
When we see YHWH speaking as one, it is as YHWH Echad (the eternal unity).
Hi KathiNice try but it just doesn't hold up. I believe like you that Jesus and God are one in purpose but so are all the believers one with God in purpose.
I am also in unity with you to bring the greatest glory to God but we are not gods although we could be called gods to some for the word of god has come to us.
Bo,
Is that the best you can do…”it just doesn't hold up?” That is no type of rebuttal. Do you not believe in the 'two powers of YHWH?'Please go here and watch these four videos to see the second power of YHWH (watch the 4th video first to particularly see the 'two powers of YHWH):
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,16:16) Bo,
Is that the best you can do…”it just doesn't hold up?” That is no type of rebuttal. Do you not believe in the 'two powers of YHWH?'Please go here and watch these four videos to see the second power of YHWH (watch the 4th video first to particularly see the 'two powers of YHWH):
Hi Kathi To be honest watching 4 hours of video is not needed to explain something that is not a stretch of the mind. My whole point to you has been if what you were saying was CLEARLY TRUE we would not be having this discussion. The Bible never speaks of two YHWHs or Two Almighty Gods and most importantly is when God says “I” and am “God Alone and there is no one else besides me” That is Clearly saying there is no other God or YHWH to consider Jesus backs this up by saying that his God is THE ONLY TRUE GOD if the GOD of JESUS is the ONLY TRUE GOD then Jesus can not be a true God according to Jesus, right?
Bo,
At least watch the 4th video, please. YHWH is not only the only true God but also the only true Lord and Jesus is that Lord. YHWH is two powers. The 4th video makes this clear. Please just watch that one…it is based on scripture in the OT and the NT and shows what the first century Jews were conscious of…two powers of YHWH.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2012,12:35) Bo,
At least watch the 4th video, please. YHWH is not only the only true God but also the only true Lord and Jesus is that Lord. YHWH is two powers. The 4th video makes this clear. Please just watch that one…it is based on scripture in the OT and the NT and shows what the first century Jews were conscious of…two powers of YHWH.
Hi KathiI see from the video why you believe the way you do, however Jesus already explained that position saying
John 10:33-36
King James Version (KJV)
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
So as I said before it is not unusual for an Angel or any Messenger acting on behalf of God to be called “God”
Remember Jacob wrestling the angel
Genesis 32:24-30
King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Now compare that with this
Genesis 35:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Also although it is said to be God talking to Moses on Mt Sinai we have in the NT:
Acts 7:35
This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.So There is only One God but the Power of His words and command through any being can only be attributed to Him although that person or being would appear to be God.
Just like Moses and Pharoah the scripture explains thisclearly when it is pointed out in acts
Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:We all know that for instance Elijah was also a man approved by God and did many miracles.
The point is that a person filled with the Holy Spirit of God is a God approved Man and tha is the Mystery of Godliness
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Now the most important thing about this verse is understanding that the word “Manifest” doesn't mean Materialized it actually means to MAKE EVIDENT.That is why it is called Mystery of Godliness and not the Mystery of God.
When Jesus did those acts wich God did by him God was made EVIDENT to those who witnessed them. This was so also in the days of Moses and Elijah God was manifested among those people in that time and neither were actually God as Jesus said there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.
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